Is It Ethical To Use Amazon?

[The Kilted Heathen]

So either move to a socialist country where ya gots
nuthin cuz yer too poor, or stop carp'n about easy live'n, & just enjoy it.

Wow this is just... wow.

Firstly, Socialism = Poor Country. In fact America still has some Socialist programs, though benefit of them for the people seems to be shrinking daily. Neither does Socialism demand a complete lack of capitalism; look to the Nordic countries who are socialist nation with elements of capitalism. Our problem is that we are a Capitalist nation with very few socialist handouts.

"Where I gots nuthin' cuz Ah'm too poor" Yeah, that's happening already under Capitalism. "Easy livin'" where? I must have missed it when I was tripping over my giddiness at living paycheck to paycheck, where one small stroke of bad luck can be completely detrimental and destroy literally everything. Every single boogyman that people prattle on about regarding what'll happen under literally any other economic system is already happening under Capitalism. And meanwhile Corporation after Corporation get showered with bailouts...

 

[Revoltingest]

The USSR was Communist. Not that it really matters because,

Bickering over terminology, eh. The called themselves
"socialist". We called them "communist". And liberals
call their system "state capitalism".
Did the people own any private property? Yes.
This indicates not communist.

Propagandist and a false narrative. The reactor was not designed so poorly to the point that it failed all on it's own because the duct tape wore out.

Soviet reactor design lacked the safety redundancy
typical of the west. It was a less stable design, &
it lacked a containment structure.

Correct. The testing of the power grid was poorly designed, through no fault of the economic system of the USSR.

Oh, but it is the result of socialism that safety is
given less consideration than it would've been
typical in capitalism.
Why, you ask?
Under socialism, the "people" are paramount,
not the individual, whose life may be readily
sacrificed for the greater good.

The crew working Reactor Unit 4 was not the crew that was trained for that test, nor did they receive proper instruction on how to conduct the test; the instructions received were heavily censored and incomplete. The safety measures in place were ignored, resulting in an explosion and then a fire that caused the reactor as a whole to collapse.

You're merely detailing the kind of slap dash
slipshod work typical of Soviet workers.

Now, you might argue that under capitalism,
companies don't care about the individual.
But there are differences...
Injured workers may get compensation, either
by insurance or by tort. And because the companies
& government are separate entities, government
has an incentive to enforce compensation.

 

[Revoltingest]

So literally anything bad that happens under any particular economic system can be attributed to that economic system?

That's a rather dramatic way to over-simplify things.
Instead, recognize that systems have emergent properties,
ie, tendencies arise. For example, when capitalism is
replaced by socialism, the government is always brutally
authoritarian.

tally up all the atrocities, wars, genocides and disasters that have ever occurred in capitalist countries?

And even greater ones in socialist countries, eg,
USSR, PRC, Khmer Rouge. Nuthin beats socialism
for inspiring famine, pogroms, & purges.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

That's a rather dramatic way to over-simplify things.

Gotta love the irony there.

You definitely do use humour to get your views accross.

 

[Revoltingest]

Wow this is just... wow.

Firstly, Socialism = Poor Country. In fact America still has some Socialist programs, though benefit of them for the people seems to be shrinking daily.

Consider the definition of the word...
Definition of socialism | Dictionary.com
What programs do you believe are examples
of the people owning the "means of production"
in Ameristan?

Neither does Socialism demand a complete lack of capitalism...

The definition of the word means otherwise.
2 reasons....
1) "The people own the means of production" means
specifically that private interests do not own it.
2) If private interests were allowed to own businesses,
they'd out-compete government run operations (if the
playing field were level). The loss of governmental
power, & the rise in private wealth would threaten them.

look to the Nordic countries who are socialist nation with elements of capitalism.

Denmark to American leftists: We’re not socialist
Denmark Tells Bernie Sanders It's Had Enough Of His 'Socialist' Slurs

Our problem is that we are a Capitalist nation with very few socialist handouts.

You're so mistaken.
It's not socialism you should aspire to.
You want a better social welfare system....not
government running the means of production.

"Where I gots nuthin' cuz Ah'm too poor" Yeah, that's happening already under Capitalism. "Easy livin'" where? I must have missed it when I was tripping over my giddiness at living paycheck to paycheck, where one small stroke of bad luck can be completely detrimental and destroy literally everything. Every single boogyman that people prattle on about regarding what'll happen under literally any other economic system is already happening under Capitalism. And meanwhile Corporation after Corporation get showered with bailouts...

Bailing out companies (which is a fairly
unusual thing) isn't inherent in capitalism.
That's the province of government.

If you really prefer socialism, why not try
the real thing, eg, N Korea, Cuba.

I know you guys only point to capitalism countries
like Denmark when you advocate against capitalism
in favor of socialism. That's because socialism
has always been both a social & economic failure,
eg, USSR, PRC, Cuba, N Korea, Khmer Rouge.

 

[Revoltingest]

Gotta love the irony there.

You definitely do use humour to get your views accross.

Well, I believe RF should be fun while arguing.
WWPWH do?

 

[Secret Chief]

Wow, that's surprising. Amazon is usually the cheapest option for a great number of things in my corner of the world.

Yes, often by a serious amount.

 

[Augustus]

I don't use it because it's usually ridiculously expensive.

They want $30 for the exact same brand and size of wild rice I get at the supermarket for $5

No idea why, but Australian Amazon is really, really bad. Expensive, long delivery times, poor choice, etc.

It's actually quite good in other countries.

 

[Revoltingest]

No idea why, but Australian Amazon is really, really bad. Expensive, long delivery times, poor choice, etc.

Are the packages stolen by dingoes?

 

[Left Coast]

Here in Brazil, Amazon does not have the same reputation as in the US. There were no scandals that I can think of. So yes, I make use of it.

That's interesting, @John53 seemed to have a similar impression from Australia. I wonder why?

 

[Left Coast]

Look at Amazon's work conditions. Follow product import back to where the workplace violations become human violations; pop-up sweatshops and the like. The bigger the Corporation, the more they're able to laugh at restrictions and just throw money at it, all while their employees are peeing into plastic bottles, hidden in a back corner because they're not allowed bathroom breaks.

Even if all that were true universally of Amazon (it isn't), it's a much bigger claim to say that all businesses in all capitalist countries work that way. Surely you recognize you can't possibly demonstrate that.

No, but that's also not Capitalism. That's commerce.

It's commerce done under a capitalist framework. I'm a private seller making a profit from your purchase. Am I exploiting you?

 

[Revoltingest]

Even if all that were true universally of Amazon (it isn't), it's a much bigger claim to say that all businesses in all capitalist countries work that way. Surely you recognize you can't possibly demonstrate that.



It's commerce done under a capitalist framework. I'm a private seller making a profit from your purchase. Am I exploiting you?

Maybe we should return to hunter gatherer economics.
We'd each make our own hoes & bows & arrows.
The population would plummet to 10,000 BCE levels.
Alas, our space exploration would suffer.
And porn...it's just no good using charcoal on cave walls.

 

[Left Coast]

Maybe we should return to hunter gatherer economics.
We'd each make our own hoes & bows & arrows.
The population would plummet to 10,000 BCE levels.
Alas, our space exploration would suffer.
And porn...it's just no good using charcoal on cave walls.

I'll trade you a fish for that pretty rock you've got there.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'll trade you a fish for that pretty rock you've got there.

That's capitalism...you're exploiting me!
It's a sharp edged rock...I want 2 fish.

 

[Left Coast]

'There is no ethical consumption under capitalism' was a phrase initially used to highlight how striving to buy from only ethical sources is futile from a consumer action perspective, because 'the market corrects itself' is a myth. Capitalistic exploitation isn't resolved from a bottom up approach.

Even if it's possible to find some businesses that are environmentally friendly, worker-owned, locally sourced, etc, you won't find it for all the products you need to function in modern society. And likely what you do find is prohibitively expensive for many, as those businesses are hampered by profit cutting from exploitative businesses. Making it probable that the people who can afford it already benefit from unethical practices elsewhere to have those assets.

Basically, we all are forced to function in a system where most of us benefit from exploitation somewhere. Which isn't an excuse to not make informed purchases, but is reason to doubt 'consumer action' is a very useful tool to fight exploitation.

First, I've missed you, where have you been?

Second, what is the best way to resolve capitalistic exploitation, in your view?

 

[Left Coast]

That's capitalism...you're exploiting me!
It's a sharp edged rock...I want 2 fish.

This is a big tasty fish! Biggest one anyone caught today. You people are so entitled. Gimme that rock!

 

[Revoltingest]

This is a big tasty fish! Biggest one anyone caught today. You people are so entitled. Gimme that rock!

I'd gladly pay you Tuesday for a fish today.

 

[Left Coast]

I'd gladly pay you Tuesday for a fish today.

I knew better than to do business with a Scot.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

First, I've missed you, where have you been?
Second, what is the best way to resolve capitalistic exploitation, in your view?

Been keeping busy. You are definitely someone I think of when I'm away though so it's good to see you. <3

To answer your question, I don't know. Certainly wiser heads than mine have been gnawing on that one for a while.

I do have some pretty extreme views though, such as wealth caps (being a billionaire should be illegal), updating monopoly laws to respond to online and multimedia market cornering, and generally not relying on fines, which punishes small business but is comfortably ignored by big business as an easy business expense.

I also believe in a flexible, location and market responsive UBI so being exploited by a non-labor controlled work culture is never compulsory.

I also believe that all essential products and services, food, water, housing, healthcare, police and fire should be socialized, but only after we prohibit corporate lobbying and tighten donation laws.

All very complicated things with complicated execution, especially in a system I feel is so corrupt as ours which lets the wealthy hoard wealth and accumulate more wealth.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Consider the definition of the word...

If you're going to be operating with half a definition, while ignoring the vast intricacies of an economic model, then this is going to be a massive waste of time. This is far more applicable than "Dictionary.com"; fully understand that I will not be utilizing your neutered definition going forward.

What programs do you believe are examples of the people owning the "means of production" in Ameristan?

There are many socialist programs in the United States aligning with Democratic socialism (what the Nordic Model actual is, and is identified as - contrary to your simplistic blog and article examples), wherein taxes are applied towards these programs at no additional cost to taxpayers. A few examples: Pell Grants, Food Stamps and SNAP, Low Income Home Energy Assistance, Job Corps, Family Planning, Childcare and Child Development Block Grant, Medicare and Medicaid, Emergency Response Services, and one that I recall you taking advantage of yourself, Social Security Income.

You're so mistaken. It's not socialism you should aspire to. You want a better social welfare system....not government running the means of production.

Oh I know, poor wee confused me. How did you go from upholding a definition of The People owning the means of production to claiming Socialism as the Government owning the means of production?

Bailing out companies (which is a fairly unusual thing) isn't inherent in capitalism. That's the province of government.

Government firmly in the grips of Capitalism (Political Capitalism), where our politicians receive generous funding from Capitalists in return for their corporations being fished out of failure at taxpayer expense and the ability to literally influence the laws that are written to govern and restrict them. As well noting clearly that Capitalism has a historically contentious relationship with Democracy.

If you really prefer socialism, why not try the real thing, eg, N Korea, Cuba.

Add in Venezuela, China and Russia and you'll have a Full House of False Equivalency.

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Even if all that were true universally of Amazon (it isn't)

The ethical shortcomings and flat-out failures of Amazon are not hard to supply at all.

it's a much bigger claim to say that all businesses in all capitalist countries work that way.

It is not a large claim at all to say that Capitalism, at all levels, is unethical. Even putting aside crimes and exploitation of natural resources and entire nations, the average worker makes the bare minimum that does not supply a basic living anymore, all while a Capitalist rakes in the profits of other people's labor without doing anything at all.

It's commerce done under a capitalist framework. I'm a private seller making a profit from your purchase. Am I exploiting you?

You are not a Capitalist. Nor every transaction is Capitalism, nor is basic commerce a "capitalist framework" in any way, shape or form.