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Is It Even Possible to Reconcile God with Evolution?

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
Topic title: Is It Even Possible to Reconcile God with Evolution?
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Sure! Heavenly creatures like this were obviously carefully designed and created by a Master Geneticist and not by random blind chance..:)

maid-cheeky_zps4eac23a5.jpg~original
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Shuttlecraft, you may want to learn about the concept of selective pressure (a.k.a. evolutionary pressure), which explains why it is wrong to think of the natural selection that is part of the Theory of Evolution as being "blind".

This page is reasonably good at explaining it:

What is Selection Pressure? (with pictures)
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
Shuttlecraft, you may want to learn about the concept of selective pressure (a.k.a. evolutionary pressure), which explains why it is wrong to think of the natural selection that is part of the Theory of Evolution as being "blind".
This page is reasonably good at explaining it:
What is Selection Pressure? (with pictures)

Yes we know evolutionary pressure happens because we see it all around us in the animal kingdom, but the basic Theory of Evolution is still full of holes, gaps and missing links that it can't explain
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
Well argue it out with Dawks, he's the one who said it..:)

"My guess is that both bats and birds evolved flight by gliding downwards from the trees.. Here’s one guess as to how flying got started in birds.. Perhaps birds began by leaping off the ground while bats began gliding out of trees. Or perhaps birds too began by gliding out of trees. (Dawkins, Climbing Mt Imp, pp 113–4)
If you think that's what he meant when he said that then that only illustrates that you don't understand how evolution works.
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
If you think that's what he meant when he said that then that only illustrates that you don't understand how evolution works.

I had a brief snail-mail correspondence with Dawkins some 20 years ago and said to him-
"There seem to be a lot of missing links in the Theory of Evolution",
to which he replied- "Of course there are missing links"
as if it was perfectly normal and natural!

So until he and his chums can find the missing links I suppose it'll have to remain just the THEORY of Evolution and not the FACT of Evolution..;)
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I had a brief snail-mail correspondence with Dawkins some 20 years ago and said to him-
"There seem to be a lot of missing links in the Theory of Evolution",
to which he replied- "Of course there are missing links"
as if it was perfectly normal and natural!

Seeing the full context might prove handy for me to understand what you mean, but if by missing links you mean hypothetical transitional species, then sure it is normal and natural, and will likely always be.

Did you expect every single transitional specimen to have been found already? There are literally millions of species of insects alone.

So until he and his chums can find the missing links I suppose it'll have to remain just the THEORY of Evolution and not the FACT of Evolution..;)

Actually not, if you consider what the words mean.
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
Just to clarify my position, let me say that I and many modern Christians totally agree with Senator John McCain who said-
"I believe in evolution, but when I hike the Grand Canyon at sunset, I see the hand of God there also"

In other words, evolution needed God to keep nudging and tweaking it to keep it on track..:)
god-dna.gif
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Yes we know evolutionary pressure happens because we see it all around us in the animal kingdom, but the basic Theory of Evolution is still full of holes, gaps and missing links that it can't explain
There are no holes, there are (and always will be) gaps and missing links since every single individual in the evolutionary chain from the very beginning to today is a potential gap or missing link.
I had a brief snail-mail correspondence with Dawkins some 20 years ago and said to him-
"There seem to be a lot of missing links in the Theory of Evolution",
to which he replied- "Of course there are missing links"
as if it was perfectly normal and natural!

So until he and his chums can find the missing links I suppose it'll have to remain just the THEORY of Evolution and not the FACT of Evolution..;)
If you are waiting for each and every missing link to be found ... that will never happen. The theory of evolution, the theory of gravity, both are at the same level, considered "facts." Learn what the words mean before you use them, failure to do so just makes you look foolish and wastes everyone else's time.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Here's Dawkins summing up of how the eye evolved-

"It is not difficult then for rudimentary lens-like objects to come into existence spontaneously. Any old lump of halfway transparent jelly need only assume a curved shape" (Richard Dawkins: 'Climbing Mount Improbable', page146)

So there you have it folks, according to him, a lump of jelly decided to spontaneously appear as if by magic out of nowhere, and then decided to magically shape itself into a lens.
He's left one thing out of the theory, namely who waved the magic wand?..;)

You really are a fan of the quote-mine. Let’s read it again, with some context, and it will become obvious that he’s not asserting at all that “a lump of jelly decided to spontaneously appear as if by magic out of nowhere.” It will also become apparent why quote mining is such a dishonest tactic. (The portion of the quote you provided can be found in bold font. The portions in italics indicate the point Dawkins was trying to make.):




“It is a fact of physics that light rays are bent when they pass from one transparent material into another transparent material. The angle of bending depends upon which two materials they happen to be, because some substances have a greater refractive index – a measure of the capacity to bend light – than others. If we are talking about glass and water, the angle of bending is slight because the refractive index of water is nearly the same as that of the glass. If the junction is between glass and water, the light is bent through a bigger angle because air has a relatively low refractive index. At the junction between water and air, the angle of bending is substantial enough to make an oar look bent. ….

… A pebble is just one example of an accidental, undersigned object which can happen to work as a crude lens. There are others. A drop of water hanging from a leaf has curved edges. It can’t help it. [/i]Automatically, without further design from us, it will function as a rudimentary lens. [/i]Liquids and gels fall automatically into curved shapes unless there is some force, such as gravity, positively opposing this. This will often mean that they cannot help functioning as lenses. The same is often true of biological materials. A young jellyfish is both lens-shaped and beautifully transparent. It works as a tolerably good lens, even though its lens properties are never actually used in life and there is no suggestion that natural selection has favoured its lens-like properties. The transparency is probably an advantage because it makes it hard for enemies to see, and the curved shape is an advantage for some structural reason having nothing to do with lenses.

Here are some images I projected on to a screen using various crude and undersigned image-forming devices. Figure 5.12a shows a large letter A, as projected on a sheet of paper at the back of a pinhole camera (a closed cardboard box with a hole in one side). You probably could scarcely read it if you weren’t told what to expect, even though I used a very bright light to make the image. In order to get enough light to read it at all, I had to make the ‘pin’ hole quite large, about a centimetre across. I might have sharpened the image by narrowing the pinhole, but then the film would not have registered it – the familiar trade-off we have already discussed.

Now see what a difference a crude and undesigned ‘lens’ makes. For Figure 5.12b the same letter A was again projected through the same hole on to the back wall of the same cardboard box. But this time I hung a polythene bag filled with water in front of the hole. The bag was not designed to be particularly lens-shaped. It just naturally hangs in a curvaceous shape when you fill it with water. I suspect that a jellyfish, being smoothly curved instead of rucked up into creases, would have produced an even better image. Figure 5.12c (‘CAN YOU READ THIS’) was made with the same cardboard box and hole, but this time a round wine goblet filled with water was placed in front of the hole instead of a sagging bag. Admittedly the wine glass is a man-made object, but its designers never intended it to be a lens and they gave it its globular shape for other reasons. Once again, an object that was not designed for the purpose turns out to be an adequate lens.

Of course, polythene bags and wineglasses were not available to ancestral animals. I am not suggesting that the evolution of the eye went through a polythene-bag stage, any more than it went through a cardboard-box stage. The point about the polythene bag is that, like a raindrop or a jellyfish or a rounded quartz crystal, it was not designed as a lens. It takes on a lens-like shape for some other reason which happens to be influential in nature.

It is not difficult then, for rudimentary lens-like objects to come into existence spontaneously. Any old lump of halfway-transparent jelly needs only to assume a curved shape (there are all sorts of reasons why it might) and it will immediately confer at least a slight improvement over a simple cup or pinhole. Slight improvement is all that is required to inch up the lower slopes of Mount Improbable.”

Climbing Mount Improbable - Richard Dawkins - Google Books




See how the point he was making was completely different from the one you thought he was making? Such is the result of quote mining and serves to demonstrate why it’s so dishonest.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Here's Dawkins summing up of how the eye evolved-

"It is not difficult then for rudimentary lens-like objects to come into existence spontaneously. Any old lump of halfway transparent jelly need only assume a curved shape" (Richard Dawkins: 'Climbing Mount Improbable', page146)

So there you have it folks, according to him, a lump of jelly decided to spontaneously appear as if by magic out of nowhere, and then decided to magically shape itself into a lens.
He's left one thing out of the theory, namely who waved the magic wand?..;)
That's dishonest on your part, I know it, you know it, most everybody who reads it knows it. Why do you bother?
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
I had a brief snail-mail correspondence with Dawkins some 20 years ago and said to him-
"There seem to be a lot of missing links in the Theory of Evolution",
to which he replied- "Of course there are missing links"
as if it was perfectly normal and natural!

So until he and his chums can find the missing links I suppose it'll have to remain just the THEORY of Evolution and not the FACT of Evolution..;)
So then you don't understand. Okay.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
When I feed the pigeons on my windowsill i've yet to see a fullscale dino among 'em, are they up in the clouds somewhere waiting for air traffic control permision to land?..:)

Those pigeons ARE dinosaurs, technically speaking.

Unless you have some stranger conception of what a "full-scale dino" even is.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Yes we know evolutionary pressure happens because we see it all around us in the animal kingdom, but the basic Theory of Evolution is still full of holes, gaps and missing links that it can't explain

Yeah. So's the collective human knowledge of all other subjects.

Being full of knowledge-gaps is no indication of inaccuracy.

And the whole "missing link" thing was discarded long ago as not being a scientifically accurate way of viewing evolution. That is to say, there are no such things as "missing links".

Besides, in the sciences, you don't get higher certainty than theory. The state of being a theory is the absolute top.
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
Dawkins quote: It is not difficult then, for rudimentary lens-like objects to come into existence spontaneously. Any old lump of halfway-transparent jelly needs only to assume a curved shape

See how the point he was making was completely different from the one you thought he was making? Such is the result of quote mining and serves to demonstrate why it’s so dishonest.

Not at all mate, you can pad it out all you like, but the fact is that Dawks fails to explain WHY and HOW the lump of jelly decided to simply appear out of nowhere "spontaneously" like magic.
So until he can explain it, it remains one of those "holes" that are sprinkled all through his books..:)
The same goes for missing links, there are plenty of fossils around, but they're mosty fully-finished creatures.
Where are all the fossils of earlier partially-formed creatures on the evolutionary ladder?
For example the Spitfire began as the Mark 1 version but then "evolved" over the years into the last and final Mk 24 version.
So why in the natural world are there mostly fossils of Mk 24 creatures? Where are the fossils of the earlier Marks?

PS- like I said earlier, me and most modern Christians FULLY AGREE that evolution occurs, except we say that it ALSO needs a God in there to keep tweaking it and keeping it on track, our only beef is that Dawks tries to use evolution to clobber Christianity!
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Not at all mate, you can pad it out all you like, but the fact is that Dawks fails to explain WHY and HOW the lump of jelly decided to simply appear out of nowhere "spontaneously" like magic.
So until he can explain it, it remains one of those "holes" that are sprinkled all through his books..:)
The same goes for missing links, there are plenty of fossils around, but they're mosty fully-finished creatures.
Where are all the fossils of earlier partially-formed creatures on the evolutionary ladder?
For example the Spitfire began as the Mark 1 version but then "evolved" over the years into the last and final Mk 24 version.
So why in the natural world are there mostly fossils of Mk 24 creatures? Where are the fossils of the earlier Marks?

PS- like I said earlier, me and most modern Christians FULLY AGREE that evolution occurs, except we say that it ALSO needs a God in there to keep tweaking it and keeping it on track, our only beef is that Dawks tries to use evolution to clobber Christianity!

You're pulling my leg, right?
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Shuttlecraft

Let me ask a simple question - if evolution is so full of holes, why is it that nothing you challenge remotely addresses evolution?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The same goes for missing links, there are plenty of fossils around, but they're mosty fully-finished creatures.
Where are all the fossils of earlier partially-formed creatures on the evolutionary ladder?

What makes you think that a transitional species is not composed of "fully-finished" creatures? What is your definition of transitional? Something that is not complete, yet? Something that has bits and pieces that approximate what it needs to turn into, like the sketches of a painter that lead to a final and complete picture?

There is not such a thing in evolution. Every "transitional" form is "fully-finished" for the environment it lives in. The concept of "fully-finished" is also misleading and a bit question begging. I would replace if with "good-enough" to survive in their environment.

We, and all other living beings, are currently transitional for what we might evolve into in a million years or so. We currently seem to be pretty "fully-finished", as well.

PS- like I said earlier, me and most modern Christians FULLY AGREE that evolution occurs, except we say that it ALSO needs a God in there to keep tweaking it and keeping it on track, our only beef is that Dawks tries to use evolution to clobber Christianity!
So, if you and all modern Christians FULLY AGREE that we all have a fish in our family album, I wonder why you are debating the issue. My theory is that it is only PR. That you guys don't really fully accept its consequences, deep inside. But I might be wrong.

And BTW, the theory is called evolution by natural selection. Not evolution by divine tweaking. So, what you are accepting has nothing to do with what scientists accept.

And honestly. Can you really imagine a tweaking God that painstakingly messes around with biology, geology, meteorology, asteroids, over hundredths of millions of years and going through mass extinctions and cataclysms of different flavors so that His final finished product is an ape with an inflated brain (that sins)? Good job ;)

Ciao

- viole
 
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