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Is it important to know, when humans started believing in God?
- Thread starter Madsaac
- Start date
Madsaac
Active Member
Not sure what you're saying exactly but I believe 'God' started at the same time when the human brain was developed enough to understand what God was, so this means that humans invented the idea of God themselves.
I think it's a very feasible conclusion, humans made God up because of our intelligence.
McBell
Unbound
Yes, but you are being extremely vague about it.
What if the god concept was before Sahelanthropus tchadensis?
How would we even go about finding out?
It's difficult to answer your questions without knowing what the term to "God" points to. Are you meaning the Abrahamic God? Indra? Atum? Danu? Ymir?
ETA: Disregard this post. The question was answered later in the thread.
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I just don't see how it could be possible without the ability to understand words and concepts. One of the articles I found showed that language would have to have been required for toolmaking, a skill that would need to be taught.
McBell
Unbound
Surely language would not be necessary for inventing the most basic of tools - like flint knives - given that if an individual came across one already in existence (broken flint) such an individual might have visualised how such could be made by repeated attempts at breaking unbroken ones? Or that rope could be made by twisting fibres together so as to strengthen the whole - when one came across something already so in the wild and compared with other non-twisted fibres.
When the brain evolved to the point of interest in understanding the nature of one's own being and the nature of the world around them.
As I said above, the desire to understanding the nature of one's own being and the nature of the world around them.
I don't know whether it is important to know (or estimate) when belief in god began. Mostly because I don't know what that means.
Are we talking about belief in Abraham's god? In strong leaders that were deified by their followers? Nature spirits that brought good crops and the like? Something else?
Are we talking about belief in Abraham's god? In strong leaders that were deified by their followers? Nature spirits that brought good crops and the like? Something else?
We don't know at what level of brain
development humans thought...
"Gods? Hey, great idea!"
"I am their prophet. Fete me!"
A likely precursor to that would
be an intermediate step...
Animism - Wikipedia
Altfish
Veteran Member
When their brains were big enough to invent gods, the priests saw the benefits of power that claiming to know what god wants brings.
Perhaps. I'm not really trying to quibble, just thinking out loud. What is a "thought"? What is it that we think when we think? Do we think in words, or is it something more innate? If we're saying that someone can believe in God within their own mode of thought or consciousness, they still wouldn't have a word for "believe" or "god." Perhaps on a more primitive, instinctive level, some concepts could be formulated without language. Such as learning early on that "fire bad." But I really don't know. Just thinking out loud, as I said. What are your thoughts on this subject?
That clarifies a bit, thanks.
Considering deification is the process of assigning deep value to something we experience in the world and telling stories about, as far as we know that value-assigning and meaning-making is endemic to the human species just in general. It's always been a thing humans do as it is part of their essential nature. To me the more interesting question is to wonder what other species also do this value-assigning and meaning-making. Humans are bad at communication with other-than-human peoples so we really just don't know. I highly doubt value-assigning and meaning-making is unique to humans. Ritual behavior and complex emotions have definitely been observed in other animals but the communications barrier kind of prevents us from digging deeper into it. Lack of definitive evidence aside, I would absolutely bet money that deification is present in other non-human animals as well.
Perhaps. That was just a point made in one of the articles I posted earlier. I can see your point. Someone might see a flint knife or figure out how to make rope on their own, but if they can't communicate that knowledge to anyone else, then it dies with them. Perhaps through hand gestures or other vocal utterances, but at least that would be something. But to be able to tell stories or establish an oral tradition would likely require some sort of grammatical language (which didn't come about until around 20,000 years ago, according to one of the articles I linked).
The OP question was asking when humans started believing in God. Even if it's conceivable that an early human without language could have conceived of the thought of a god, then that thought would remain solely within that human. And even then, it would just be a thought, not necessarily a belief. It couldn't really be communicated to others in any meaningful way, so it couldn't really become a religion - not something that could be considered as a time when "humans started believing in god."
Yes I agree here, and why progress was so slow until language developed. Not sure we will ever know how long our ancestors were talking before symbolic language was invented and was recorded.
Not really sure as to such, given all the variants that would likely have preceded any Gods - such as animism, sun-gods, and whatever else.
There is a spiritual alternative that humanity spiritually evolved to know God at one point inhuman history as humanity physically evolved as a belief of the Baha'i Faith. It is rather vague as to when humans began to believe in God or God, believed by some as spiritual first human or Adam, which the Baha'i Faith believes could be 100,000 years or more in the past.. Archaeology and paleoarchaeology gives some hints. that in the Neolithic and paleolithic there is evidence of belief in a spiritual higher power of sorts and afterlife in the burial of the dead and primitive alters.
globalheritagefund.org
After Göbekli Tepe, however, that wisdom was shown to be, if not wrong, at least wrongheaded.
The transition from Paleolithic to Neolithic lifeways was actually much messier than earlier histories have argued, for the storage of goods and the practice of sedentism, the settled life of non-nomadic peoples, arose in the Epipaleolithic among the Natufian people circa 9,500 BC. Around the same time, circa 8,200 BC, genetic changes have been observed in crop plants indicating their domestication. All these new developments, pre-agricultural though characteristic of the agricultural revolution in nature, took place in the Levant during the construction of Göbekli Tepe, highlighting the ferment of innovation surrounding its rise.
The remarkably early date of Göbekli Tepe’s construction, before the mass advent of agriculture and in the liminal period between man’s condition as a hunter-gatherer and as a settled farmer, suggests that the social pressures of agricultural society did not provide the rationale for ritualistic practices. These new practices themselves provided the grounds for a pre-agricultural, hunter–gatherer culture to band together, divide their labor, procure a steady source of food, and erect a megalithic site of proportions so epic they would not be matched anywhere for several thousand years – all without the use of writing, advanced tools, or even the wheel.
Oldest known ritual burial 78,000 years ago:
bigthink.com
THE PAST — MAY 11, 2021
Photo by Francesco Derrico & Alain Queffelec / AFP via Getty Images
Archaelogists at the Panga Ya Saidi site, north of Mombasa, Kenya, where the remains of a 3-year-old child named by the scientists "Mtoto" (meaning 'child' in Swahili) and buried inside a deliberately dug pit, were discovered.
KEY TAKEAWAYS
How did the emergence of Homo sapiens affect ideas around death? What legacies have been passed down from ancient times? And can these give us insights into the origins of our current rituals around dying?
Possible answers to these questions could be derived from a new study in Nature, led by María Martinón-Torres of the National Research Center on Human Evolution in Burgos, Spain. It focuses on a two- to three-year-old child found buried in a Kenyan cave roughly 78,000 years ago. While this isn’t the oldest burial grounds for Homo sapiens — to date, that is in Israel — this new discovery of a seemingly intentional burial offers insights into the evolution of how humans treated death.
The dearth of excavation sites in Africa has made studying ancient funerary practices difficult. The remains of this young child were discovered in a pit in the Panga ya Saidi cave site located in a tropical region of coastal Kenya. Taphonomic evidence, which examines the process of fossilization, suggested that the child was intentionally placed in a flexed position (sort of curled up like a ball) in the burial pit.
All Posts
After Göbekli Tepe, however, that wisdom was shown to be, if not wrong, at least wrongheaded.
The transition from Paleolithic to Neolithic lifeways was actually much messier than earlier histories have argued, for the storage of goods and the practice of sedentism, the settled life of non-nomadic peoples, arose in the Epipaleolithic among the Natufian people circa 9,500 BC. Around the same time, circa 8,200 BC, genetic changes have been observed in crop plants indicating their domestication. All these new developments, pre-agricultural though characteristic of the agricultural revolution in nature, took place in the Levant during the construction of Göbekli Tepe, highlighting the ferment of innovation surrounding its rise.
The remarkably early date of Göbekli Tepe’s construction, before the mass advent of agriculture and in the liminal period between man’s condition as a hunter-gatherer and as a settled farmer, suggests that the social pressures of agricultural society did not provide the rationale for ritualistic practices. These new practices themselves provided the grounds for a pre-agricultural, hunter–gatherer culture to band together, divide their labor, procure a steady source of food, and erect a megalithic site of proportions so epic they would not be matched anywhere for several thousand years – all without the use of writing, advanced tools, or even the wheel.
Oldest known ritual burial 78,000 years ago:
Discovered: 78,000 years ago, the oldest known burial ritual in Africa
How do archaeologists know if someone was buried intentionally tens of thousands of years ago?
bigthink.com
THE PAST — MAY 11, 2021
Discovered: 78,000 years ago, the oldest known burial ritual in Africa
How do archaeologists know if someone was buried intentionally tens of thousands of years ago?
Photo by Francesco Derrico & Alain Queffelec / AFP via Getty Images
Archaelogists at the Panga Ya Saidi site, north of Mombasa, Kenya, where the remains of a 3-year-old child named by the scientists "Mtoto" (meaning 'child' in Swahili) and buried inside a deliberately dug pit, were discovered.
KEY TAKEAWAYS
- The oldest known burial ritual in Africa has been discovered on the coast of Kenya.
- A small child appears to have been buried intentionally in a cave 78,000 years ago.
- This new research offers insights into ancient funerary practices.
How did the emergence of Homo sapiens affect ideas around death? What legacies have been passed down from ancient times? And can these give us insights into the origins of our current rituals around dying?
Possible answers to these questions could be derived from a new study in Nature, led by María Martinón-Torres of the National Research Center on Human Evolution in Burgos, Spain. It focuses on a two- to three-year-old child found buried in a Kenyan cave roughly 78,000 years ago. While this isn’t the oldest burial grounds for Homo sapiens — to date, that is in Israel — this new discovery of a seemingly intentional burial offers insights into the evolution of how humans treated death.
The dearth of excavation sites in Africa has made studying ancient funerary practices difficult. The remains of this young child were discovered in a pit in the Panga ya Saidi cave site located in a tropical region of coastal Kenya. Taphonomic evidence, which examines the process of fossilization, suggested that the child was intentionally placed in a flexed position (sort of curled up like a ball) in the burial pit.
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In general based on paleoarchaeology, archaeology human beliefs evolved from animism, attributing spiritual relationships between humans and the animal kingdom to anthropomorphic beliefs in the afterlife, polytheism and hierarchy of Gods with anthropomorphic Gods and living rulers in a spiritual rule after death, the return of promised return of Messianic figures to Monotheism.
Growing up with extensive reading of all sources related to the spirituality of humanity particularly the ancient origins I was very much influenced by Joseph Campbell.
en.wikipedia.org
Campbell's concept of monomyth (one myth) refers to the theory that sees all mythic narratives as variations of a single great story. The theory is based on the observation that a common pattern exists beneath the narrative elements of most great myths, regardless of their origin or time of creation. Campbell often referred to the ideas of Adolf Bastian and his distinction between what he called "folk" and "elementary" ideas, the latter referring to the prime matter of monomyth while the former to the multitude of local forms the myth takes in order to remain an up-to-date carrier of sacred meanings. The central pattern most studied by Campbell is often referred to as "the hero's journey" and was first described in The Hero with a Thousand Faces (1949).[43] An enthusiast of novelist James Joyce,[44] Campbell borrowed the term "monomyth" from Joyce's Finnegans Wake.[45] Campbell also made heavy use of Carl Jung's theories on the structure of the human psyche, and he often used terms such as anima, animus and ego consciousness.
As a strong believer in the psychic unity of mankind and its poetic expression through mythology, Campbell made use of the concept to express the idea that the whole of the human race can be seen as engaged in the effort of making the world "transparent to transcendence" by showing that underneath the world of phenomena lies an eternal source which is constantly pouring its energies into this world of time, suffering, and ultimately death. To achieve this task one needs to speak about things that existed before and beyond words, a seemingly impossible task, the solution to which lies in the metaphors found in myths. These metaphors are statements that point beyond themselves into the transcendent. The Hero's Journey was the story of the man or woman who, through great suffering, reached an experience of the eternal source and returned with gifts powerful enough to set their society free.
As this story spread through space and evolved through time, it was broken down into various local forms (masks), depending on the social structures and environmental pressures that existed for the culture that interpreted it. The basic structure, however, has remained relatively unchanged and can be classified using the various stages of a hero's adventure through the story, stages such as the Call to Adventure, Receiving Supernatural Aid, Meeting with the Goddess/Atonement with the Father and Return. These stages, as well as the symbols one encounters throughout the story, provide the necessary metaphors to express the spiritual truths the story is trying to convey. Metaphors for Campbell, in contrast with similes which make use of the word like, pretend to a literal interpretation of what they are referring to, as in the sentence "Jesus is the Son of God" rather than "the relationship of man to God is like that of a son to a father".[46]
In the 1987 documentary Joseph Campbell: A Hero's Journey, he explains God in terms of a metaphor:
Joseph Campbell - Wikipedia
Campbell's concept of monomyth (one myth) refers to the theory that sees all mythic narratives as variations of a single great story. The theory is based on the observation that a common pattern exists beneath the narrative elements of most great myths, regardless of their origin or time of creation. Campbell often referred to the ideas of Adolf Bastian and his distinction between what he called "folk" and "elementary" ideas, the latter referring to the prime matter of monomyth while the former to the multitude of local forms the myth takes in order to remain an up-to-date carrier of sacred meanings. The central pattern most studied by Campbell is often referred to as "the hero's journey" and was first described in The Hero with a Thousand Faces (1949).[43] An enthusiast of novelist James Joyce,[44] Campbell borrowed the term "monomyth" from Joyce's Finnegans Wake.[45] Campbell also made heavy use of Carl Jung's theories on the structure of the human psyche, and he often used terms such as anima, animus and ego consciousness.
As a strong believer in the psychic unity of mankind and its poetic expression through mythology, Campbell made use of the concept to express the idea that the whole of the human race can be seen as engaged in the effort of making the world "transparent to transcendence" by showing that underneath the world of phenomena lies an eternal source which is constantly pouring its energies into this world of time, suffering, and ultimately death. To achieve this task one needs to speak about things that existed before and beyond words, a seemingly impossible task, the solution to which lies in the metaphors found in myths. These metaphors are statements that point beyond themselves into the transcendent. The Hero's Journey was the story of the man or woman who, through great suffering, reached an experience of the eternal source and returned with gifts powerful enough to set their society free.
As this story spread through space and evolved through time, it was broken down into various local forms (masks), depending on the social structures and environmental pressures that existed for the culture that interpreted it. The basic structure, however, has remained relatively unchanged and can be classified using the various stages of a hero's adventure through the story, stages such as the Call to Adventure, Receiving Supernatural Aid, Meeting with the Goddess/Atonement with the Father and Return. These stages, as well as the symbols one encounters throughout the story, provide the necessary metaphors to express the spiritual truths the story is trying to convey. Metaphors for Campbell, in contrast with similes which make use of the word like, pretend to a literal interpretation of what they are referring to, as in the sentence "Jesus is the Son of God" rather than "the relationship of man to God is like that of a son to a father".[46]
In the 1987 documentary Joseph Campbell: A Hero's Journey, he explains God in terms of a metaphor:
McBell
Unbound
I did not think you were...
Same here
When you mentioned the need for speech it peaked my curiosity.
It seems to me that we now a days have a much more developed thought process, even as infants.
Of course, that is nothing more than an assumption, which I realized as I typed it.
Thinking about it I discovered that most the time I think in words.
Though I heard a Prince song:
Dig if you will the picture
Of you and I engaged in a kiss
The sweat of your body covers me
Can you my darling
Can you picture this?
Of you and I engaged in a kiss
The sweat of your body covers me
Can you my darling
Can you picture this?
Dream, if you can, a courtyard
An ocean of violets in bloom
An ocean of violets in bloom
my thoughts went to images like was suggested.
What exactly is a "word"?
Seems to me that they would not have survived long if they did not have a concept of danger.
Thus far my thought is that it is whole lot of speculative guess work based on my limited knowledge of prehistorical conditions, prehistorical understandings, prehistoric thought processes, etc.
But it is still rather interesting.