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Is it Ok for a Poor Person to be Greedy if it's Ok for a Rich Person?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
You often hear these days how "greed is good" because it drives capitalism. The notion is the rich would retire to remote islands if they couldn't endlessly acquire more wealth than anyone would need in a thousand lifetimes. It is then implied or stated that the economy would stagnate or shrink without the rich doing their thing.

Assuming all of that is true -- and it would be genuinely risky to do so -- then we can ask the question: If greed is good for the rich because it drives the economy, is greed good for the poor because it drives the economy?

After all, about 70% of the economy is consumer spending. So if the poor were to seize the wealth of the rich through taxation, and then spend it, we'd have a booming economy. Certainly a better economy than the rich can create through their own consumer spending.

Put differently, are there any reasons why -- if greed is good because it boosts the economy -- greedy poor people are not just as good as greedy rich people?
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
So, if your theory is the opposite of "trickle down," do we call it the "bubble up theory?"
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
So, if your theory is the opposite of "trickle down," do we call it the "bubble up theory?"

Trickle down never had any evidence for it. That the economy is driven by consumer spending is established fact.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
The poor cannot be "greedy", as by definition greed is wanting more then one needs, at the expense of others, and the poor have not reached that capacity. The poor are "needy", not "greedy". Though, I suppose one could be poor in some ways, while being greedy in others.

Also, I can understand someone who has been poor becoming greedy once their needs are being met, as it would be hard to overcome that fear of not having enough. I am less able to understand someone that has not experienced being poor, being greedy. I think most people who have been poor tend to be generous once they come into wealth, because they can better empathize with those in need. But this is just my anecdotal opinion. As there are plenty of wealthy people in the world who understand that the true definition of wealth is having the capacity to be generous. And is not just having a big pile of 'extra' money.
 

Mox

Dr Green Fingers
That the economy is driven by consumer spending is established fact.

When people stop spending money, private sector jobs go, tax revenue slumps, the economy stagnates or shrinks. So yes, absolutely.

If your economy relies on goods and services industries, like many modern nations, then hoarding capital in overseas tax haven bank accounts or in a maze of trust funds etc, isn't going to help economic output much. Hard to see how it possibly could.

When the consumers stop spending money, because A. They havent got any or B. They are hoarding money in banks/trusts. Then all those domestic businesses, especially retail and services, online and high street, will wither, their share values, tumble.

So making the average person poorer or less willing to risk spending money on luxury items and services, prefering to save it instead for reasons to do with of job insecurity, wage stagnation, inflation or mortgage rate increases, is extremely detrimental to the domestic economy.

Without Christmas, many retailers, and thus workers, would be up the creek without a paddle.
 

Mox

Dr Green Fingers
I think most people who have been poor tend to be generous once they come into wealth, because they can better empathize with those in need.

I've met poor people who would give you their last £5 if they thought your need was greater.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
After all, about 70% of the economy is consumer spending. So if the poor were to seize the wealth of the rich through taxation, and then spend it, we'd have a booming economy. Certainly a better economy than the rich can create through their own consumer spending.
It would be, to use Rand's own ideas, in their self rational interests, or rational selfishness, to do just that. But that conflicts with her idea that the poor are ungrateful leeches who should eat cake, and that essentially taxation is theft. It's also debated if she felt socialist-leaning politicians should be killed.
And, in the end, she held out her grubby poor hands like the herd of plebeians before her and asked for government assistance for lung cancer treatments (she smoked like a chimney) at the behest of her beloved Galtian Capitalists.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Without Christmas, many retailers, and thus workers, would be up the creek without a paddle.
I don't think anyone at GE or BP will go without Christmas if they actually get a tax bill instead of a refund.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
The poor cannot be "greedy", as by definition greed is wanting more then one needs, at the expense of others, and the poor have not reached that capacity. The poor are "needy", not "greedy". Though, I suppose one could be poor in some ways, while being greedy in others.

Also, I can understand someone who has been poor becoming greedy once their needs are being met, as it would be hard to overcome that fear of not having enough. I am less able to understand someone that has not experienced being poor, being greedy. I think most people who have been poor tend to be generous once they come into wealth, because they can better empathize with those in need. But this is just my anecdotal opinion. As there are plenty of wealthy people in the world who understand that the true definition of wealth is having the capacity to be generous. And is not just having a big pile of 'extra' money.

I was going to ask for a definition of greed but you beat me to it. However, this definition is so nebulous that I feel you would be hard put to find a real life example of true greed. Prove me wrong.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Greed is like altruism.
Both can benefit us when accompanied by good judgement & ethics.

The Revoltistanian dictionary definition of greed.....
1) Enthusiastic rational pursuit of self interest
2) Unethical &/or irrational pursuit of self interest
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You often hear these days how "greed is good" because it drives capitalism. The notion is the rich would retire to remote islands if they couldn't endlessly acquire more wealth than anyone would need in a thousand lifetimes. It is then implied or stated that the economy would stagnate or shrink without the rich doing their thing.

Assuming all of that is true -- and it would be genuinely risky to do so -- then we can ask the question: If greed is good for the rich because it drives the economy, is greed good for the poor because it drives the economy?

After all, about 70% of the economy is consumer spending. So if the poor were to seize the wealth of the rich through taxation, and then spend it, we'd have a booming economy. Certainly a better economy than the rich can create through their own consumer spending.

Put differently, are there any reasons why -- if greed is good because it boosts the economy -- greedy poor people are not just as good as greedy rich people?

I never could get behind the idea that "greed is good." I remember it coming up in the movie Wall Street, where Gordon Gekko makes his famous speech:

"The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA."

Interesting to note that he includes the parenthetical phrase "for lack of a better word." Is there another word to describe what he's saying? Especially when addressing other forms of greed - "greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge."

In the context of the speech he was giving (at a stockholders' meeting), he was pointing out that there were 33 executives at this fictional company all making more than $200,000 a year and that they weren't actually doing anything. He mentioned that the company lost $110 million the previous year, and that the executives had very little of their own money invested in the company they were running. I believe that he was trying to make the point that if these executives had their own money on the line, and if they were more greedy, it would presumably help the company make more money and give bigger dividends to stockholders.

As for greed among the poor and working classes, that may exist as well, but in different forms. I've heard some say that union workers are greedy for going on strike and demanding better wages which may cripple a company. A lot of people blamed the union for the demise of Hostess cupcakes.

The implication in such an argument is that some workers or professions are "worth" more than others. The belief was that the union workers weren't "worth it," at least not as much as the executives of the company making significantly more money.

Likewise, Gekko argued that those executives earning more than $200k per year were also not "worth it," since (from his view) they weren't producing.

Greed is one of the Seven Deadly Sins, so I would figure from a religious or moral viewpoint, greed may not be considered good. But it's also part of being human, just as we feel lust, pride, envy, wrath, etc. from time to time, the same can be said of greed. In moderation, it might not be too harmful overall, although it's likely just as unavoidable as lust.

But it's also a matter of what one is actually "worth." Greed may be good from the standpoint that one deserves rich rewards commensurate to their contribution to society. But sometimes it comes across as some kind of dishonest shell game by con artists and manipulators, and there's a sucker born every minute. That may explain a lot of what's going on.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
You often hear these days how "greed is good" because it drives capitalism. The notion is the rich would retire to remote islands if they couldn't endlessly acquire more wealth than anyone would need in a thousand lifetimes. It is then implied or stated that the economy would stagnate or shrink without the rich doing their thing.

Assuming all of that is true -- and it would be genuinely risky to do so -- then we can ask the question: If greed is good for the rich because it drives the economy, is greed good for the poor because it drives the economy?

After all, about 70% of the economy is consumer spending. So if the poor were to seize the wealth of the rich through taxation, and then spend it, we'd have a booming economy. Certainly a better economy than the rich can create through their own consumer spending.

Put differently, are there any reasons why -- if greed is good because it boosts the economy -- greedy poor people are not just as good as greedy rich people?

I suspect poor folks are as likely to be greedy as rich folks. I also suspect excessive greed would stifle capitalism. If you charge more for your product than the market will bear then no one will buy it. It's in a capitalist's best interest to reduce the cost as much as possible to increase market share.

The exception would be where a necessary commodity was controlled by a monopoly.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I was going to ask for a definition of greed but you beat me to it. However, this definition is so nebulous that I feel you would be hard put to find a real life example of true greed. Prove me wrong.
Wanting more than one needs, and wanting it at the expense of others, would be an easy definition of greed.

Think of three co-workers. The first wants to be paid as much money as he can get, for doing as little work as possible, to get it. The second co-worker wants a fair wage for a day's work. And the third co-worker wants to make more money for himself, but to do it by finding ways to add value to the business enterprise. Thus, he improves his own income by improving everyone else's, too.

The first co-worker is just being greedy. The second co-worker is just being fair. And the third co-worker is being both fair, and ambitious.

The common lie being told by capitalists is that greed fuels ambition, and so it's a good thing. And many of us have fallen for this lie, because we don't recognize the difference between greed an ambition. And the difference is fairness: it's considering the well-being of others, along with our own. While greed disregards the well-being of others, for the sake of our own.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
I've met a few who are. Give them an inch, and they'll try to pressure you into giving them a mile.
That's not greed, that's just need. Greed begins when the need is fulfilled, and they still want more. Even as others go without.

I agree that some people who are needy will become greedy once they have enough. But I think most don't, because they feel empathy for those who are still lacking.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Greed is like altruism.
Both can benefit us when accompanied by good judgement & ethics.

The Revoltistanian dictionary definition of greed.....
1) Enthusiastic rational pursuit of self interest
2) Unethical &/or irrational pursuit of self interest

Just where is this mythical kingdom of Revoltistan? :cool:
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
essentially taxation is theft.

Taxation when done right is not theft. The problem that I have seen here in the U.S. is that when tax increases happen they negatively affect the middle class the most. Let me put in the perspective of how the ACA tax affected people in my state of Oklahoma. The really poor already received free health care. The rich didn't have to worry about it anyway. The middle class were driven completely out of the market (unless their employer paid for it) due to the price of health care quadrupling. As in my case, I had to do without health care until the mandate went away. That's just one example. So how do we go about shifting the tax burden from the middle class? History shows that the middle becomes the 'beast of burden' for the poor as well as the rich. IMHO
 
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