Is it ok to just love physical aspects of bhakti without the jnana aspect?

[Laddu1]

Hello everyone!
So basically what the title says.
I used to be into philosophy as a teen, but now in my late twenties I rather find joy in just practicing a few things that I learned in iskcon mixed with my own interests, such as offering incense, bathing deities, sewing outfits, making decorations for my shrine and taking small deities (like a small shiva lingam) for a walk or to work with me.

Maybe it will change, but right now I feel like I am not really interested in philosophy. I suffer from depression amongst other things and need things to do when I am at home. Devotional activities always ease my depression. When I fall asleep it helps me to think of what kind of decorations I have seen on social media, and how I could make them myself for my deities. For me this is enough right now.

I picked up a few beliefs from iskcon like their concept of a spiritual world where we can reunite with others and God and altogether play and perform bhakti. I like the thought of reuniting with everyone after death or eventually after many births. Due to fears and sort of poor mental health I need positive outlooks and this helps me be less scared of dear ones passing eventually. In this way I don't really care if people think it is false, I just want to believe in it because it helps me cope.

I hope it is ok to be this open.. I feel like this is a very understanding community and everyone has been only nice so far. I am oftentimes scared to say these things because people start criticizing me..

 

[Vinayaka]

Hello everyone!
So basically what the title says.
I used to be into philosophy as a teen, but now in my late twenties I rather find joy in just practicing a few things that I learned in iskcon mixed with my own interests, such as offering incense, bathing deities, sewing outfits, making decorations for my shrine and taking small deities (like a small shiva lingam) for a walk or to work with me.

Maybe it will change, but right now I feel like I am not really interested in philosophy. I suffer from depression amongst other things and need things to do when I am at home. Devotional activities always ease my depression. When I fall asleep it helps me to think of what kind of decorations I have seen on social media, and how I could make them myself for my deities. For me this is enough right now.

I picked up a few beliefs from iskcon like their concept of a spiritual world where we can reunite with others and God and altogether play and perform bhakti. I like the thought of reuniting with everyone after death or eventually after many births. Due to fears and sort of poor mental health I need positive outlooks and this helps me be less scared of dear ones passing eventually. In this way I don't really care if people think it is false, I just want to believe in it because it helps me cope.

I hope it is ok to be this open.. I feel like this is a very understanding community and everyone has been only nice so far. I am oftentimes scared to say these things because people start criticizing me..

Of course it's okay. I'm not a scholar at all either. 95% bhaktar, 5% philosopher. For me, it's a question of what interests me, and what is more fun. I find philosophy dry, but bhakti colorful, enjoyable full of nice people, and more. In my school we see the yogas as progressive stages, not as separate paths, and the concept of jnana is totally different from the usual one you hear about.
Best wishes.

 

[Laddu1]

Of course it's okay. I'm not a scholar at all either. 95% bhaktar, 5% philosopher. For me, it's a question of what interests me, and what is more fun. I find philosophy dry, but bhakti colorful, enjoyable full of nice people, and more. In my school we see the yogas as progressive stages, not as separate paths, and the concept of jnana is totally different from the usual one you hear about.
Best wishes.

Thank you very much!! That makes me happy to hear..

 

[SomeRandom]

Hello everyone!
So basically what the title says.
I used to be into philosophy as a teen, but now in my late twenties I rather find joy in just practicing a few things that I learned in iskcon mixed with my own interests, such as offering incense, bathing deities, sewing outfits, making decorations for my shrine and taking small deities (like a small shiva lingam) for a walk or to work with me.

Maybe it will change, but right now I feel like I am not really interested in philosophy. I suffer from depression amongst other things and need things to do when I am at home. Devotional activities always ease my depression. When I fall asleep it helps me to think of what kind of decorations I have seen on social media, and how I could make them myself for my deities. For me this is enough right now.

I picked up a few beliefs from iskcon like their concept of a spiritual world where we can reunite with others and God and altogether play and perform bhakti. I like the thought of reuniting with everyone after death or eventually after many births. Due to fears and sort of poor mental health I need positive outlooks and this helps me be less scared of dear ones passing eventually. In this way I don't really care if people think it is false, I just want to believe in it because it helps me cope.

I hope it is ok to be this open.. I feel like this is a very understanding community and everyone has been only nice so far. I am oftentimes scared to say these things because people start criticizing me..

I think you’ll find that most Hindus are generally more into Bhakti than philosophy anyway. You do what makes you happy, that’s what matters

By the way, happy upcoming Diwali lol

 

[ameyAtmA]

Dear Laddu

It is fine.
It is perfect.

BG 9.34 manmanAbhava mad-bhakto |
mad-yAji mAm namaskuru |
mAmevaishyasi yuktvaivaM |
AtmAnam matparAyaNah: ||

Always think of Me (be in consciousness of Me), be My devotee (devoted to Me), worship Me, offer obeisences to Me. Be united i.e. in Yog with Me, and surrender yourself to Me.

BG 12.8 mayyAveshya mana Adhitsva |
mayi buddhiM niveshaya |
nivashisya cha mayyieva |
ata UrdhvaM na shauMshayah: ||

Fix your mind on Me alone and surrender your intellect (buddhi) to Me. There upon, you will always live in Me. Of this, there is no doubt.

--
For me as well, direct experience of jnAna, dhyAna and bhakti given by multiple forms of ParaBramh at various points overrides everything else.
Our bhakti does not belong to us. It is given to us. It is arranged.

I was drawn to philosophy - from the beginning, and still am.
It is both bhakti and jnAna for me, at once. Some find that contradictory, but it is not. JnAnis do not forget their Guru, although as their Higher Self.
On the one hand, I can see that am the One consciousness. On the other hand, I am a devotee of VAsudev-KRshNa, the Universal One, ParamAtmA. What does this mean? It means you realize slowly that VAsudev is my own [Highest] Self.

HanumAn realizes He is the One consciousness, but does not stop being the Ram bhakta.

 

[Laddu1]

@SomeRandom Thank you!! Happy upcoming Diwali!

Dear Laddu

It is fine. Just drench yourself in devotion to KRshNa day in and day out.
It is perfect.
Do not tax your mind with the philosophy since it is not naturally responsive to it.
Do not pay attention to anyone who criticizes your devotional sentiments or activities.

BG 9.34 manmanAbhava mad-bhakto |
mad-yAji mAm namaskuru |
mAmevaishyasi yuktvaivaM |
AtmAnam matparAyaNah: ||

Always think of Me (be in consciousness of Me), be My devotee (devoted to Me), worship Me, offer obeisences to Me. Be united i.e. in Yog with Me, and surrender yourself to Me.

BG 12.8 mayyAveshya mana Adhitsva |
mai buddhi niveshaya |
nivashisya cha mayyieva |
ata Urshva na shauMshayah: ||

Fix your mind on Me alone and surrender your intellect (buddhi) to Me. There upon, you will always live in Me. Of this, there is no doubt.

--
For me as well, direct experience of both jnAna and bhakti, given by VAsudev (KRshNa) Himself, overrides everything else.
Our bhakti does not belong to us. It is given to us. It is arranged.

I was drawn to philosophy like a magnet - from the beginning, and still am. It was after philosophical contemplation on the Geeta verses that I met VAsudev. I just did not know He was observing my figuring it out.

It is both bhakti and jnAna for me, at once. Some find that contradictory, but it is not. JnAnis do not forget their Guru, although as their Higher Self.
On the one hand, I can see that am the One consciousness. On the other hand, I am a devotee of VAsudev-KRshNa.

HanumAn realizes He is the One consciousness, but does not stop being the Ram bhakta.

Thank you! Very nice phrases you picked out.

Thank you guys/gals!!

 

[Jainarayan]

Maybe it will change, but right now I feel like I am not really interested in philosophy. I suffer from depression amongst other things and need things to do when I am at home. Devotional activities always ease my depression.

I also suffer from depression, as well as being on the autism spectrum, what used to be referred to as Asperger's. I need things to be nice and neat. I tried the meditation and jñana thing for several years but I drove myself crazy. I can't meditate worth dust but i can chant mantras and prayers, sing bhajans and converse with God spontaneously. I like doing puja or aarati. I like being in temple feeling the energy and presences of the deities. So yeah, it's very OK to not be into philosophy and just do bhakti.

 

[Laddu1]

I also suffer from depression, as well as being on the autism spectrum, what used to be referred to as Asperger's. I need things to be nice and neat. I tried the meditation and jñana thing for several years but I drove myself crazy. I can't meditate worth dust but i can chant mantras and prayers, sing bhajans and converse with God spontaneously. I like doing puja or aarati. I like being in temple feeling the energy and presences of the deities. So yeah, it's very OK to not be into philosophy and just do bhakti.

Yess I totally relate! I love temple atmospheres too, as well as puja and arati and kirtan/bhajans.

 

[mangalavara]

Maybe it will change, but right now I feel like I am not really interested in philosophy.

You don’t have to be interested in philosophy. According to Sri Ramakrishna, pure Bhakti and pure Jñāna are not different. Also, from what I learned by listening to Pravrajika Divyanandaprana, we do not decide what we are: bhakta, jñāni, karmi, etc. Rather, we are what we are according to our makeup. Like most, I am a bhakta. It sounds like you are obviously a bhakta, too. Nonetheless, we don’t have to practice exclusively one form of yoga because ultimately, all of us have the inclination toward action (which is necessary in karma yoga), the intellectual faculty (which is necessary in jñāna yoga), and we can all be meditative (which is necessary in rāja yoga). Sometimes, I can be contemplative like a jñāni, but I am essentially a bhakta.

Devotional activities always ease my depression.

I am happy to read that.

Forgive me for any accidental misinformation, any mistakes, and any unintended offenses in my post. Namaste. _/\_

 

[Laddu1]

You don’t have to be interested in philosophy. According to Sri Ramakrishna, pure Bhakti and pure Jñāna are not different. Also, from what I learned by listening to Pravrajika Divyanandaprana, we do not decide what we are: bhakta, jñāni, karmi, etc. Rather, we are what we are according to our makeup. Like most, I am a bhakta. It sounds like you are obviously a bhakta, too. Nonetheless, we don’t have to practice exclusively one form of yoga because ultimately, all of us have the inclination toward action (which is necessary in karma yoga), the intellectual faculty (which is necessary in jñāna yoga), and we can all be meditative (which is necessary in rāja yoga). Sometimes, I can be contemplative like a jñāni, but I am essentially a bhakta.



I am happy to read that.

Forgive me for any accidental misinformation, any mistakes, and any unintended offenses in my post. Namaste. _/\_

Thank you very much for your message ) I appreciate it

 

[Valjean]

Bhakti focuses. It's a technique leading to Jnana.
Yogas are mind expansion methodologies.

 

[mangalavara]

Bhakti focuses. It's a technique leading to Jnana.
Yogas are mind expansion methodologies.

Very well said!

 

[Vinayaka]

The most common understanding is to put the various yogas as separate paths, but that isn't my sampradayas POV. In my sampradaya, the yogas are progressive, but overlapping stages, called margas, and they are, in the progressive order, charya, kriya, yoga, and jnana.

Charya is good work, selfless service, seva, roughly corresponding to the more common karma yoga.
Kriya is worship of Gods, bhakti, roughly corresponding to the common bhakti yoga.
Yoga is internalised worship, roughly corresponding to the common raja yoga.
Jnana is the state of mind reached by good practice of the previous 3, and has no corresponding yoga. It's not jnana yoga, because there is no book study.

The soul in jnana never forgets where He came from, the path he took, so still does all of the previous 3. His service is mainly teaching, and he beseeches God both within himself, and outside himself.

 

[Laddu1]

The most common understanding is to put the various yogas as separate paths, but that isn't my sampradayas POV. In my sampradaya, the yogas are progressive, but overlapping stages, called margas, and they are, in the progressive order, charya, kriya, yoga, and jnana.

Charya is good work, selfless service, seva, roughly corresponding to the more common karma yoga.
Kriya is worship of Gods, bhakti, roughly corresponding to the common bhakti yoga.
Yoga is internalised worship, roughly corresponding to the common raja yoga.
Jnana is the state of mind reached by good practice of the previous 3, and has no corresponding yoga. It's not jnana yoga, because there is no book study.

The soul in jnana never forgets where He came from, the path he took, so still does all of the previous 3. His service is mainly teaching, and he beseeches God both within himself, and outside himself.

I really like this explanation of jnana!

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Is it ok to just love physical aspects of bhakti without the jnana aspect?": Perfectly OK. One thing leads to another. 'Bhakti' too will take you to jnana, though Krishna favored 'jnana'.

teṣāṁ jñānī nitya-yukta, eka-bhaktih viśiṣyate;
priyah hi jñāninah tat artham, ahaṁ sa ca mama priyaḥ."
Bg. 7.17

Of these, the one who always engaged in single pursuit of knowledge is the best. For I am very dear to him, and he is dear to Me.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Of these, the one who always engaged in single pursuit of knowledge is the best. For I am very dear to him, and he is dear to Me.

Edit: "Of these, the one who always engaged in single pursuit of knowledge is the best. In that sense I am very dear to him, and he is dear to Me."

 

[Sirona]

Hello everyone!
So basically what the title says.
I used to be into philosophy as a teen, but now in my late twenties I rather find joy in just practicing a few things that I learned in iskcon mixed with my own interests, such as offering incense, bathing deities, sewing outfits, making decorations for my shrine and taking small deities (like a small shiva lingam) for a walk or to work with me.

Maybe it will change, but right now I feel like I am not really interested in philosophy. I suffer from depression amongst other things and need things to do when I am at home. Devotional activities always ease my depression. When I fall asleep it helps me to think of what kind of decorations I have seen on social media, and how I could make them myself for my deities. For me this is enough right now.

I picked up a few beliefs from iskcon like their concept of a spiritual world where we can reunite with others and God and altogether play and perform bhakti. I like the thought of reuniting with everyone after death or eventually after many births. Due to fears and sort of poor mental health I need positive outlooks and this helps me be less scared of dear ones passing eventually. In this way I don't really care if people think it is false, I just want to believe in it because it helps me cope.

I hope it is ok to be this open.. I feel like this is a very understanding community and everyone has been only nice so far. I am oftentimes scared to say these things because people start criticizing me..

The way I understood Gaudiya Vaishnava teachings, Krishna loves best when he is treated "as a mere human being", with no feelings of awe "interfering" and I think jnana may nurture those feelings of awe.

That said, I think ISKCON philosophy is more of a dogma or a doctrine than a real philosophy. "It is so", and you cannot really discuss or question it. ISKCON also doesn't encourage a climate where discussion is actually welcome. Personally I'm an Advaitin as I first learned about the Bhagavad Gita through theosophy. I think the "Truth" is something to be experienced rather than to be imposed via doctrine.

 

[Laddu1]

The way I understood Gaudiya Vaishnava teachings, Krishna loves best when he is treated "as a mere human being", with no feelings of awe "interfering" and I think jnana may nurture those feelings of awe.

That said, I think ISKCON philosophy is more of a dogma or a doctrine than a real philosophy. "It is so", and you cannot really discuss or question it. ISKCON also doesn't encourage a climate where discussion is actually welcome. Personally I'm an Advaitin as I first learned about the Bhagavad Gita through theosophy. I think the "Truth" is something to be experienced rather than to be imposed via doctrine.

Very well put! Is Advaita what iskcon calls "impersonalism"? I am not so familiar with the hindu terminology.. @Sirona

 

[Sirona]

Very well put! Is Advaita what iskcon calls "impersonalism"? I am not so familiar with the hindu terminology.. @Sirona

Absolutely . It's interesting to learn about the history of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. I think it started out as a kind of "protest" against Islam, focusing on the "true" faith, and its revival in the 19th century seemed to be driven by the idea of finding an alternative to Christianity. Bhaktivinoda calls Chaitanya the "Eastern Saviour". He writes:

"Accidentally, we fell in with a work about the great Chaitanya, and on reading it with some attention in order to settle the historical position of that Mighty Genius of Nadia, we had the opportunity of gathering His explanations of Bhagavat, given to the wrangling Vedantist of the Benares School. The accidental study created in us a love for all the works which we find about our Eastern Saviour."

The Bhagavat - It's Philosophy It's Ethics and It's Theology

The problem is that it's probably difficult to explain Advaita Vedanta to somebody who wasn't born in a culture where such philosophies are common. Believing in a "true faith" is supposedly much easier and probably familiar for people especially from Abrahamic backgrounds. I think bhakti requires jnana to that extent that you have to realize that their experience of God is as "true" for the other person as yours is for you. So ideally, there should be no room for proselytizing. On the other hand, I am not in favor of limiting freedom of speech, but when the main focus of an organization is on preaching and the associated sale of (sometimes very beautiful) books, you do get into murky waters.

 

[ameyAtmA]

The way I understood Gaudiya Vaishnava teachings, Krishna loves best when he is treated "as a mere human being", with no feelings of awe "interfering" and I think jnana may nurture those feelings of awe.

My experience says the opposite. It is only with pure jnAna that pure bhakti can co-exist OR awe can also co-exist with very very close friendship with Krishna.
This can be understood only when one accepts that you are not the driver, Krishna is.

Main point being, that the One who is giving Jnana is first your very close friend by His own choice, not yours.
Whereas, Gaudiya-like bhakti especially preached from outside as "this is how it is supposed to be" to a bhakta who is already a bhakta, is what [tries to] put lightyears(distance) between bhakta and BhagvAn which was otherwise not there. Hence that never works. SOME Gaudiyas (especially from ISKCON or similar organizations) do not like this external bhakta's close friendship with Krishna, and may tell such a bhakta ( who is coming straight from Krishna and Bh, Geeta ) that they are a mAyAvAdi and a very bad person, and not a devotee. (They do not realize that indirectly they are not criticizing the bhakta, but the One driving the bhakta i,e, their very own Shri KRshNa ~)