is it part of your belief to reject data that opposes your belief?

[dyanaprajna2011]

John 14:. 26 'But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things...'

The real question to ask is does God give holy spirit to every denomination....obviously if they all have holy spirit, they will all be taught by it, yet with so many different beliefs it points to the fact that not all have holy spirit.

so find the holy spirit is, and you'll find the truth.

This poses a different question along a similar vein: how can you tell who has the holy spirit? I was a Pentecostal for about four years. They certainly believe they have the holy spirit. And without any real criteria to judge, there's no real way to know. You could say look at what the Bible says about the holy spirit, but then that takes us back to my original question.

 

[Pegg]

This poses a different question along a similar vein: how can you tell who has the holy spirit? I was a Pentecostal for about four years. They certainly believe they have the holy spirit. And without any real criteria to judge, there's no real way to know. You could say look at what the Bible says about the holy spirit, but then that takes us back to my original question.

there is criteria so that we can identify Gods people, its laid out in the bible:

Criteria 1 - Love
John13:34 I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. 35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”

Criteria 2 - Gods word must be upheld and taught as truth and put into practice
John 8:31 “If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples
John 17;17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.

Criteria 3 - Separateness from the world including political neutrality.
John 17:14 '...the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world"

Criteria 4 - Make known Gods name.
John 17:6 “I have made your name manifest...'
John 17:26 And I have made your name known to them and will make it known

Criteria 5 - Do Gods will....the work that Jesus did was to preach the message of the kingdom of God...that is Gods will.
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will
Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.

Criteria 6 - Peace and unity must exist among them and no national barriers or cultural barriers should divide them as they should all be one in unity and love.
John 14:27 I leave YOU peace, I give YOU my peace.
2 Thessalonians 3:16 Now may the Lord of peace himself give YOU peace constantly in every way. The Lord be with all of YOU.


some denominations may have one or two of these criteria, but not all of them. Some may only focus their efforts on helping the poor with material goods, some may only focus on building churches and baptizing, some may only focus on have social gatherings as a way to show love to each other... but a denomination needs to exhibit each of the above criteria.

 

[Renji]

there is criteria so that we can identify Gods people, its laid out in the bible:

Criteria 1 - Love
John13:34 I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. 35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”

Criteria 2 - Gods word must be upheld and taught as truth and put into practice
John 8:31 “If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples
John 17;17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.

Criteria 3 - Separateness from the world including political neutrality.
John 17:14 '...the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world"

Criteria 4 - Make known Gods name.
John 17:6 “I have made your name manifest...'
John 17:26 And I have made your name known to them and will make it known

Criteria 5 - Do Gods will....the work that Jesus did was to preach the message of the kingdom of God...that is Gods will.
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will
Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.

Criteria 6 - Peace and unity must exist among them and no national barriers or cultural barriers should divide them as they should all be one in unity and love.
John 14:27 I leave YOU peace, I give YOU my peace.
2 Thessalonians 3:16 Now may the Lord of peace himself give YOU peace constantly in every way. The Lord be with all of YOU.


some denominations may have one or two of these criteria, but not all of them. Some may only focus their efforts on helping the poor with material goods, some may only focus on building churches and baptizing, some may only focus on have social gatherings as a way to show love to each other... but a denomination needs to exhibit each of the above criteria.

Seen plenty of deno's which actually do/preserve those things.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

there is criteria so that we can identify Gods people, its laid out in the bible:

Criteria 1 - Love
John13:34 I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. 35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”

Criteria 2 - Gods word must be upheld and taught as truth and put into practice
John 8:31 “If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples
John 17;17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.

Criteria 3 - Separateness from the world including political neutrality.
John 17:14 '...the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world"

Criteria 4 - Make known Gods name.
John 17:6 “I have made your name manifest...'
John 17:26 And I have made your name known to them and will make it known

Criteria 5 - Do Gods will....the work that Jesus did was to preach the message of the kingdom of God...that is Gods will.
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will
Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.

Criteria 6 - Peace and unity must exist among them and no national barriers or cultural barriers should divide them as they should all be one in unity and love.
John 14:27 I leave YOU peace, I give YOU my peace.
2 Thessalonians 3:16 Now may the Lord of peace himself give YOU peace constantly in every way. The Lord be with all of YOU.


some denominations may have one or two of these criteria, but not all of them. Some may only focus their efforts on helping the poor with material goods, some may only focus on building churches and baptizing, some may only focus on have social gatherings as a way to show love to each other... but a denomination needs to exhibit each of the above criteria.

Ok, this is a nice list. But, who set it? Anyone could take anything from the Bible and say it's necessary, while another believer may not. This takes us back to my original point. There's no way to know what the Bible actually means. Everyone has their own points of view and interpretations, and one is just as abstract as the next. Each person uses the Bible to interpret the Bible, but there's thousands of different interpretations. So it should be obvious that the Bible cannot be the sole criterion for interpretation. Everyone has their own spin based on their own tastes and opinions of what they think the Bible says. It's a never-ending circle with no answer. Each person answers it in their own way. Which leads us to one of two conclusions: either the Bible is meant to be understood differently depending on the person, which only leads to confusion, or the Bible isn't any more a spiritual guide than any other book.

 

[McBell]

Quoting scriptures from various parts of the Bible that pertain to a certain subject is not wrong or quote-mining, so long as the scriptures are not twisted or taken out of context. Jesus and the apostles quoted texts from various places in the Hebrew scriptures to discuss certain subjects. The Bible itself warns against twisting the Scriptures to fit our personal ideas. (2 Peter 3:16) The thousands of sects all claiming to be Christian are mostly due to replacing Bible truth with personal philosophies and traditions of men.(Matthew 15:1-9)

Oh, you mean the Onan story being about masturbation?
Sodom and Gomorrah being about homosexuality?
"Judge not lest ye be Judged" being a commandment to not judge?

No, Christians do not take their own holy book out of context nor twist it at all....

 

[rusra02]

That would be great, if there was any real way to tell who's version is right and who's is wrong. Every denomination says the same thing you just said. So where's the manual on what is the proper way to interpret the Bible?

There are thousands of ancient manuscripts that confirm the accuracy of the Bible's transmission. As it's Author, God has protected his Word from corruption.
Since the Bible is inspired by God, God has provided it as a guide. It is not for any man to put his spin on what the Bible says, but allow the Bible to speak for itself. A Christian should be a follower of Christ, and accept his teachings as the truth. Jesus Christ is the "manual" on the proper way to interpret the Scriptures.
The identifying marks of true Christians can be found in the Bible. And, indeed, many professed "Christian" religions do not hold to the Bible as God's word, as Jesus did.(John 17:17) Some professing to follow Christ put tradition on an equal footing with the Bible, or they pronounce parts of the Bible "myths". God's name has been removed from many Bibles. Regardless of their claims, such religions are not true Christians. (Titus 1:16)

 

[rusra02]

I reject all beliefs that defy common sense or cannot be proven, no matter what its source. If you can prove it to me, then I'll believe. Simple.

What proof do you require? For example, what would convince you that "God created the heavens and the earth" as the Bible says he did? (Genesis 1:1) Or that the Bible is "inspired by God"? (2 Timothy 3:16,17) I'm not asking in a challenging way; just curious.

 

[miss interpret]

Ok, this is a nice list. But, who set it? Anyone could take anything from the Bible and say it's necessary, while another believer may not. This takes us back to my original point. There's no way to know what the Bible actually means. Everyone has their own points of view and interpretations, and one is just as abstract as the next. Each person uses the Bible to interpret the Bible, but there's thousands of different interpretations. So it should be obvious that the Bible cannot be the sole criterion for interpretation. Everyone has their own spin based on their own tastes and opinions of what they think the Bible says. It's a never-ending circle with no answer. Each person answers it in their own way. Which leads us to one of two conclusions: either the Bible is meant to be understood differently depending on the person, which only leads to confusion, or the Bible isn't any more a spiritual guide than any other book.

Of course there is a way to know what the bible means, it is called context, if you just take one line out of a chapter yes you can make it say what ever you please, this is how two major american cults began, If you take the time to read the whole chapter even the whole book and by that I mean John or james not the whole bible, then as you cross reference the scriptures the true picture will emerge.

 

[rusra02]

Oh, you mean the Onan story being about masturbation?
Sodom and Gomorrah being about homosexuality?
"Judge not lest ye be Judged" being a commandment to not judge?

No, Christians do not take their own holy book out of context nor twist it at all....

Professing to be a Christian does not make one a Christian. And the Bible has surely been misrepresented and twisted, often by those professing to follow it. (Matthew 15:8,9)
As to Onan, the accound was not about masturbation, but failure to perform the duties of brother-in-law marriage.
Sodom and Gomorrah is a warning against homosexual perversion, as well as rape. (Jude 7)
I'm not sure what point you're making regarding Jesus command to "stop judging." (Matthew 7:1)

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[arthra]

simple question. is it part of your belief to reject data that opposes your belief? i have recently had a bible discussion with a fundamentalist christian. as it turns out his ultimate "argument" in response to the various biblical contradictions i pointed out to him was that no matter how immoral or contradictory god's actions seem, we MUST ALWAYS assume they are not.

we must always assume that negative data regarding god is actually positive data that only looks negative to us, because we do not see the big picture, do not have a full understanding, and are too limited to understand, and/or judge god/the bible.

the bible states that god is moral, therefore we must dismiss any data that says otherwise. and then he compared our limited understanding to that of a bear in a bear trap, or a baby being treated by a doctor....

he says that we are under the false impression that some of the things god did (as described in the bible) are evil, just like the bear is under the false impression that you are trying to hurt it, when all you are trying to do is free it, or the baby is under the impression that the doctor is trying to hurt it, when he is only trying to treat it.

whats your take?

There are what are viewed as contradictions in some religious scriptures..and some are I think less reliable..that is they could have been interpolated or altered for various purposes over time.. so for Baha'is the Bible is viewed as inspired but not necessarily accurate.

As far as "data that opposes" our belief.. Maybe you mean say a scientific finding. Baha'is believe that there should be harmony between sicence and religion. We should abandon superstition that is in conflict with scientific findings. As to some areas of research ... we should be open to the findings..but research studies can vary over time.

Science on the other hand should not be exploited for unethical purposes such as building weapons like the V-2 rocket or finding better ways to exterminate humans or control them...or injecting athletes with steroids to win gold medals.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

There are thousands of ancient manuscripts that confirm the accuracy of the Bible's transmission. As it's Author, God has protected his Word from corruption.
Since the Bible is inspired by God, God has provided it as a guide. It is not for any man to put his spin on what the Bible says, but allow the Bible to speak for itself. A Christian should be a follower of Christ, and accept his teachings as the truth. Jesus Christ is the "manual" on the proper way to interpret the Scriptures.
The identifying marks of true Christians can be found in the Bible. And, indeed, many professed "Christian" religions do not hold to the Bible as God's word, as Jesus did.(John 17:17) Some professing to follow Christ put tradition on an equal footing with the Bible, or they pronounce parts of the Bible "myths". God's name has been removed from many Bibles. Regardless of their claims, such religions are not true Christians. (Titus 1:16)

And you've missed the point completely.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Of course there is a way to know what the bible means, it is called context, if you just take one line out of a chapter yes you can make it say what ever you please, this is how two major american cults began, If you take the time to read the whole chapter even the whole book and by that I mean John or james not the whole bible, then as you cross reference the scriptures the true picture will emerge.

I can understand that. But here's where I'm having the issue: many, and I would venture to say most, denominations say that. But yet they all give different interpretations to what the bible says. So, how is one to understand context? When you have one denomination saying it means one thing, and another denomination saying it means another thing, and providing what appears to be well thought out arguments in favor of their belief, it gets quite confusing. This says to me that the bible cannot stand alone, and that some outside source is necessary in order to understand it. The problem with this way of thinking, though, is that this leads one into a vast number of different interpretations still, which goes back to my original issue. This leads me to one of three conclusions: 1. the bible is unintelligible and meaningless, 2. there must be some form of interpretation other than the bible itself that should be acceptable for all Christians, or 3. the bible is not meant to be understood the same way by all people, and it's primary importance lies in an individuals personal interpretation.

 

[McBell]

I'm not sure what point you're making regarding Jesus command to "stop judging." (Matthew 7:1)

It is not a command to not judge others.
It is a warning that the standards you use to judge others will be the same standards used to judge you.

 

[miss interpret]

I can understand that. But here's where I'm having the issue: many, and I would venture to say most, denominations say that. But yet they all give different interpretations to what the bible says. So, how is one to understand context? When you have one denomination saying it means one thing, and another denomination saying it means another thing, and providing what appears to be well thought out arguments in favor of their belief, it gets quite confusing. This says to me that the bible cannot stand alone, and that some outside source is necessary in order to understand it. The problem with this way of thinking, though, is that this leads one into a vast number of different interpretations still, which goes back to my original issue. This leads me to one of three conclusions: 1. the bible is unintelligible and meaningless, 2. there must be some form of interpretation other than the bible itself that should be acceptable for all Christians, or 3. the bible is not meant to be understood the same way by all people, and it's primary importance lies in an individuals personal interpretation.

the way to do it is to read the bible for yourself and take the whole bible in to account, the fact that some denominations decide to omit or over emphasise a certain scripture or gifting is their problem not the bibles.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

the way to do it is to read the bible for yourself and take the whole bible in to account, the fact that some denominations decide to omit or over emphasise a certain scripture or gifting is their problem not the bibles.

I think you make a good point, but I'll give you an example: how does one determine what parts to take literal, and what parts to take metaphorical?

 

[bigbadgirl]

Proving religious beliefs or proving that God exists is an impossible task. could someone prove otherwise. It should be easy.

 

[Thief]

Proving religious beliefs or proving that God exists is an impossible task. could someone prove otherwise. It should be easy.

Asking for proof there is no God?
There are threads all through this forum aimed to do so.
Look around.

But you may be disappointed.
Theological discussions and science cross now and then, but science can't be used to disprove God.

 

[Looncall]

( snip for message length)

This says to me that the bible cannot stand alone, and that some outside source is necessary in order to understand it. The problem with this way of thinking, though, is that this leads one into a vast number of different interpretations still, which goes back to my original issue. This leads me to one of three conclusions: 1. the bible is unintelligible and meaningless, 2. there must be some form of interpretation other than the bible itself that should be acceptable for all Christians, or 3. the bible is not meant to be understood the same way by all people, and it's primary importance lies in an individuals personal interpretation.

I think you have missed a fourth possibility: that the bible really is just a collection of campfire tales, folk histories and propaganda. Given that, the unintelligibility you see arises from assuming that the bible is a holy book. That is, christians are trying to find things in the bible that simply are not there.

 

[McBell]

Proving religious beliefs or proving that God exists is an impossible task. could someone prove otherwise. It should be easy.

Lack of evidence is not proof for lack of existence of god.

Though it is a justified reason to not believe.

 

[jamesmorrow]

Lack of evidence is not proof for lack of existence of god.

Though it is a justified reason to not believe.

the complete lack of evidence for the existence of something IS PROOF for the inexistence of that something... thing is though, we will never know whether there is a COMPLETE lack of evidence for anything in question. which is the true reason why, as you correctly pointed out, we can at best only justify our lack of belief....

so in theory, the lack of evidence for god proves the inexistence of god.... it is our inability to establish a complete lack of evidence that makes it impossible to prove the inexistence of god........

the saying "you cant prove a negative" is false. you can prove that something is a negative by establishing complete and absolute lack of evidence for the thing in question (which makes it a negative)