Acts has two versions of the wilderness expedition. They don't correspond to each other. The least the keeper of notes could have done was query the sources to find out which one was true based on a 3rd source. Any self-witnessing of Paul, according to Yeshua, is not true (John 5:31).
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Is it possible that Christianity is true, yet the Bible contains errors?
- Thread starter vulcanlogician
- Start date
There are around 3 primary prophets, and 12 latter prophets. All you need is for two of them to agree on any matter. Yeshua says any matter has to be verified by at least two persons, and that is according to Yeshua's referral to Deuteronomy on the matter. He used Elijah/John the Baptist as a secondary witness in verifying who he was. On the other hand, Paul makes the same reference to Deuteronomy, but with regard to him saying something twice, which of course is an untrue comparison, but seems to persuade the "many" (Mt 7:12-15). If Yeshua is quoted as saying something, and there is no second witness, it has not been verified as to its veracity, and can be considered "not true". Yeshua came to "fulfill" the Law and the prophets. If something is not grounded in the Law and the prophets, well, one is now on a snipe hunt.
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First of all, Yeshua means "LORD (YWHY) is salvation", whereas Paul's message is that one is to call on the "Lord" and not the LORD. Those in Jerusalem and on Mount Zion (those who keep the Commandments) will have to call on the name of the LORD to "escape"/"survive" the "day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32). There are many Lords (princes), such as the Lord (prince (Ez 34)) of Israel, the Lord (prince) of Persia, of Babylon, and of Rome (Daniel 10). David is to be "prince" and "shepherd" of Israel (Ezekiel 34) after judgment between the sheep and the goats, which happens at the "end of the age" (Mt 24:29-32). It is the "many" who follow the wide path to destruction (Mt 7:12-15). Those "who dwell on the earth" (Rev 13) are the ones deceived by the "beast with two horns like a lamb", and that would be the establisher of the Roman church, the Roman emperor Constantine, and his two Christ like leaders, Peter and Paul, for whom Constantine glorified by building each a basilica, a church in the shape of the pagan cross. As for who will have understanding (Daniel 12:10), they will not include the "wicked"/"lawless" (under gospel of grace), and the ones who understand, will exclude those thinking they are "wise" and "education" (Mt 11:25), but include the "babes".
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
It's not a note keeper's job to verify the testimony of a witness.
Need is irrelevant here.
No, he says nothing about persons. Persons are irrelevant in the law of Moses.
For YHWH ... regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
Deuteronomy 10:17
Fulfilment in relation to the law (Torah) is the acquisition of knowledge.
That's YHWH.
This goes back to Peter's conflation of the two in Acts 1-4.
Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye [even] to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he [is] gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
Joel 2:12-13
And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of YHWH shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as YHWH hath said, and in the remnant whom YHWH shall call.
Joel 2:32
Peter and Paul had different roles. Paul's role was to make the name of Yeshua known, but Peter denied the name.
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:18
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Acts 9:15
More on Constantine here:
This "note keeper's" notes are presently assigned as the "Word of God", yet they are inconsistent and uphold the "message" of the "enemy". Not that that is inconsistent with the intent of the "kingdom of heaven" as it is outline via the parables of Matthew 13, but at the "end of age" all is to be revealed, and the "tares" are now to be "gathered" and casts into the "furnace of fire" (Mt 13:30). Their best option is too "repent" and produce "fruit" in line with that repentance (Mt 3).
And yet the "Christians" think they are saved, and have no need to repent, for their sins have been washed clean by simply believing that "Jesus" is the son of God, something the "demons" already know, and yet they tremble in expectation of what is to come (James). Notice, that only those in Jerusalem and on Mount Zion can expect to "escape" the coming wrath of the "day of the LORD".
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Faith vs knowledge:
He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:11
Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, [he is] a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and [is] as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
Habakkuk 2:4-5
You left out the part about the remnant.
It is "faith"/beliefs versus "works"/actions (James 2:17). "Faith, if it has no works (good fruit (Mt 3)), is dead". In this case a false belief that if one believes that "Jesus", as the son of God, rose from the dead, that they are saved. Yeshua's message was the "kingdom" (Mt 13:11) which was to be taught around the world, before the "tribulation"/"the end" (Mt 24:14). "Understanding" of that message was to be kept from the "wicked"/"lawless" (Daniel12:10) and given only to those with ears to hear and eyes to see (Mt 13:14). What has been taught to the "nations" is the false gospel of grace, by way of the "enemy"/"devil" (Mt 13) until the "end of the age" (Mt 13:30), when the tares (wicked/lawless) will be gathered and thrown into furnace of fire. At that time, the "righteous" will shine as the sun (Mt 13:43). As for you being "healed" (Is 53:5), lets get real. Your attempted healing comes from Obama Care. Isaiah 53 was directed to "My people" (Is 53:8), who would be the combined House of Isreal (Ephraim & Judah), who would be "gathered" out of the nations and settled on the land given to "Jacob" (Ez 36-37), with David as their king. All of this in spite of Israel profaning my name, but solely for the "nations"/Gentiles, to know that I am the LORD (Ez 36:23). At that time, the whole house of Israel, which is composed of the house of Judah, and the house of Israel (Ephraim), will be given a new heart and a new spirit (Jer 31:31-34 & Ez 36:26), and live on the land given Jacob/Israel. As for your note on a "remnant", you will have to more specific as to the verse, and the time period involved. There will be "survivors" of the nations (Zech 14:16) and a remnant of Israel.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
No, it's faith vs knowledge. James' argument with Paul was a symptom of the broader ideological conflict between those who supported or tolerated Roman influence and those who opposed it.
Fruit is symbolic of outcomes, not works.
False beliefs are not consistent with knowledge.
The time of the end is associated with knowledge:
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Daniel 12:4
The time of the end is marked by knowledge of the demise of Pauline Christianity. This follows from Daniel 12:4 from the idea of running and of the distinction between faith and knowledge.
I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved.
And YHWH answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make [it] plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.
For the vision [is] yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, [he is] a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and [is] as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
Habakkuk 2:1-5
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Daniel 12:3
Wisdom is associated with the serpent.
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Matthew 10:16
The symbol for medicine is the symbol of the crucifixion.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:14
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
Numbers 21:9
But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 53:5
again the reference to knowledge:
He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:11
Come, and let us return unto YHWH: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hosea 6:1-2
For I [will be] unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, [even] I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue [him].
Hosea 5:14
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Revelation 5:5
... which connects with Daniel 12:4 from earlier in this post.
Daniel 12:10 is with respect to the "wicked" will have no understanding. As for the gospel of the "kingdom" (Mt 13:10-14) those without ears to hear, the wicked, will not "understand". As for "knowledge", without "understanding", it is kind of lame. People can memorize the bible and have great knowledge of the false gospel of grace, but as for understanding the "kingdom", not so much. They will continue to make their doctor appointments. The expanding knowledge of the "end times", leads to such things as AI, rocket ships, nuclear weapons, and yet, little understanding of the "kingdom". As for "fruit" being "outcomes", well that would refer to Mt 7:12-15, whereas the fruit is either good or bad (bad deeds), the bad being the "outcome" of coming off the bad tree, the tree of the "false prophets" (Mt 7:15). The fruit of Mt 3, is with respect to those producing bad fruit being cut down and thrown into the fire, which is parallel to Mt 13:38-50, whereas those who commit lawlessness, the "wicked"/"tares" are gathered and thrown into the fire. Those would be the "many" of Matthew 7:12-15. By the way, there are "many" Christians, about 2 billion. There are also many Muslims, around 1.5 million. Combined, they are about half the population of the earth.
As for "wisdom":
- Proverbs 4:7: The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding.
- James 1:5: If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.
- Proverbs 9:10: The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight.
Psalms 37:30
30 The mouths of the righteous utter wisdom, and their tongues speak what is just.Ecclesiastes 2:26
26 To the person who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
In the Gospel of Thomas it's two ears or two good ears.
"These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded."
Didymus and Thomas both mean twin, i.e "twin-twin". Then there are the two fates of Judas. Understanding the kingdom involves understanding the meaning of the parables.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Matthew 13:13
76. Jesus said, "The Father's kingdom is like a merchant who had a supply of merchandise and found a pearl. That merchant was prudent; he sold the merchandise and bought the single pearl for himself.
92. Jesus said, "Seek and you will find.
In the past, however, I did not tell you the things about which you asked me then. Now I am willing to tell them, but you are not seeking them."
For he said, Surely they [are] my people, children [that] will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] he fought against them.
Isaiah 63:8-10
In Hebrew, righteousness and justice are synonymous. Putting this in context, the understanding comes from the knowledge that is hidden in the two fates of Judas. The name of Judas is from Judah:
And here's the lion, along with the cry of dereliction, in Psalm 22 (twin-twin).
(To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.) My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?
Psalms 22:1
I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Psalms 22:22
The name of Judah (YHDWH) is from the name of YHWH.
And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise YHWH: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing.
Genesis 29:35
"Judah", the son of Jacob, in general, refers to the house of Judah, which is composed of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon Iscariot, and referred to as the son of perdition, although considered of the tribe of Judah, is the "shepherd" who was referred to in Zechariah 11:13, whereas, he said, "throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD". This is the same "shepherd" who was linked with two other "shepherds" of Zechariah 11, that being Peter (called Union) and Paul (called "Favor"). Peter being the "worthless shepherd" (Zech 11:17). "Righteousness" and "Justice" are not synonymous. One is to do righteousness; one is to seek justice. Both are explained in the law of God.
To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice." (Proverbs 21:3)
Isaiah 1:17: Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.
You are inverting the order. Judah and Ephraim had become as those who remove a boundary, and the LORD was to crush them in judgment, as in like a lion tearing them to pieces. And then after two days (1 day as a thousand years), two thousand years, "He will heal us". We are now approaching the 2000 years past the time "I will go away and return to my place (heaven)". Now after 2000 years, Judea is being returned to Judah, and in the future, Judah and Ephraim will be reunited (Ezekiel 37:16-17) and placed on the land given to Jacob (Judea and Samaria), plus more with respect to the prophecy of Obadiah.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
There's obviously no shepherd in that text.
The actual reference to Judas relates to the phrase "smite the shepherd".
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
Matthew 26:31
Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith YHWH of armies: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Zechariah 13:7
The KJV translates GBR as man, but more accurately it means warrior. The relates to Judas Iscariot because Iscariot id a garbled form of sicarri, and the sicarri were assassins, i.e. a type of warrior.
Zechariah 11:8, " I annihilated the three shepherds" This would include Peter, Paul, and Judas Iscariot
Matthew 26:31 refers to Zechariah 13:7, and specifically with respect to Peter's denial of "Christ" 3 times. (Mt 26:31-34) "Peter".... "before the cock crows you will deny me 3 times"
As for a sword, that would be with respect to Peter cutting off the ear of a slave and is referred to with regards the "worthless shepherd" and reads "a sword will be on his arm" (Zechariah 11:17), as well as him leaving the flock (Jews), which is to say Peter went to preach to the Gentiles according to Acts 15:7.
No
Christianity describes the truth of Christianity, because Christians believe it is true.
The plain reading of the Torah texts the prophecies are for one or more future Messianic Kings to restore the Nation of Israel. Based on 'belief' Christians claim they refer to Jesus Christ, and/or the return of Jesus Christ
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Yes, the Bible contains numerous errors and inconsistencies concerning the text, historical, archaeological and scientific knowledge of the nature of our physical existence. The Pentateuch was compiled 600 BCE or later without previous basis in text or factual history. Yes, it contains some known persons, historical events, and places in history, but by and large it lacks a foundation in factual history. The Genesis Creation story and Noah's Flood are most definitely based on ancient mythology.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the Holy Spirit is a witness for Paul so his witness would be true. In addition that wouldn't make a false witness anyway only a legally unacceptable one.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the Bible has credibility. The problem with extra-Biblical texts is that they lack that credibility.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe implausibility tends more towards credibility. People making things up won't go out on a limb by making things implausible.