is it possible that we have been deceived by the church?

[JayJayDee]

Your a Jehovah witness aren't you?

JayjAy never mind just read it

:yes: and proud of it.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I have added no requirements.

Yes you have. You were asked to provide criteria by which a "true" church could be recognized, and I gave you an example of a church that, in it's own opinion, fits that criteria perfectly. Then you proceeded to throw in a load of new criteria that hadn't been mentioned before in an attempt to disqualify this Church. You're inventing new criteria so that your own chosen belief system is the only one that could possibly fit it.

...the first list was by no means the only list of all the things that Jesus' true followers would be doing. I can't seem to get that through.

Because that's not what you said at all.

Does the list bother you?

Yes, because it's completely arbitrary and decided upon solely by your personal preference.

Do you really think that no one can keep them?

I didn't say that. I said that you set the criteria up so that no church could possibly qualify other than the one you already belong to, which is extremely convenient.

I assure you, JW's do. Does this mean that they are perfect? Far from it. That is why there is instruction and discipline when it is warranted.

You can believe whatever you like IF. It's all about the faith backed up by works.

Anybody can do "works". It doesn't demonstrate anything.

"Nevertheless, a certain one will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works" (James 2:18)

It's really not that complicated. :no:

So then explain to me why stoning unruly children is not a part of your criteria?

 

[Desert Snake]

Without church teachings you would still have to question any books/scripture anyway, there is always the possibility/probability that some teachings are 'wrong' obfuscated or missing from canon, the real question is how important are those false teachings, do you have to find some sect that has the "real teachings" etc.
The larger the canon the more chances of false/spuriously added teachings.

 

[JayJayDee]

Yes you have. You were asked to provide criteria by which a "true" church could be recognized, and I gave you an example of a church that, in it's own opinion, fits that criteria perfectly. Then you proceeded to throw in a load of new criteria that hadn't been mentioned before in an attempt to disqualify this Church. You're inventing new criteria so that your own chosen belief system is the only one that could possibly fit it.

Is there any probability of talking with you reasonably IF?

You appear to have your mind set about this issue. What makes you think the criteria is not Biblical, if I have given you the scriptures to back up every one of them?
These are not MY criteria, they are God's. I didn't make up any of them. They are direct commands and principles of God's laws.

Yes, because it's completely arbitrary and decided upon solely by your personal preference.

Arbitrary? Meaning that you can't imagine anyone being able to live up to them? Or that you personally can't live up to them? Are they too hard?


It's got nothing to do with MY PERSONAL PREFERENCE. It is what is stated in God's word. Check out the scriptures for yourself.

I said that you set the criteria up so that no church could possibly qualify other than the one you already belong to, which is extremely convenient.

That is nonsense. It is set out in the Bible that we must obey God in all things...we don't get to pick and choose the bits we like and reject the rest....what things do you take issue with on that list. Tell me what there is there that you find so impossible to keep? What things do you think are unnecessary?

Anybody can do "works". It doesn't demonstrate anything.

That is true, but faith alone is not enough. If you have faith it is natural to back that up with works.

James wrote, "Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?...
Nevertheless, a certain one will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works." James 2:14, 18)

So then explain to me why stoning unruly children is not a part of your criteria?

What on earth are you talking about?

Let me fill you in....

"Under the Law, a wrongdoer deserving capital punishment usually was pelted to death with stones. (Lev 20:2) This was to ‘clear out what was bad from their midst.’ All Israel would hear of the punishment, and fear of such wrongdoing would be instilled in their hearts. (Deut 13:5, 10, 11; 22:22-24) In stoning an evildoer, they showed that they were zealous for true worship, anxious to see that no reproach came upon God’s name, and desirous of maintaining a clean congregation.

Before a wrongdoer could be stoned, at least two witnesses had to give harmonious testimony against him, and thereafter they cast the first stones. (Lev 24:14; De 17:6, 7) The prospect of being the executioner made a person think searchingly in giving evidence and doubtless was a deterrent to false testimony, which, if discovered, would cost the lying witness his own life.—Deut 19:18-20.

Stoning no doubt usually took place outside the city. (Num 15:35, 36; 1Kings 21:13; contrast De 22:21.) Thereafter, as a warning, the corpse might be impaled on a stake, but not beyond sunset. It was buried that same day.—Deut 21:21-23.

Jesus spoke of Jerusalem as “the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her.” (Matt 23:37; compare Heb 11:37.) Christ himself was threatened with stoning. (John 8:59; 10:31-39; 11:8) Stephen was killed in this manner. (Acts 7:58-60) At Lystra fanatical Jews “stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, imagining he was dead.”—Acts 14:19; compare 2Cor 11:25. (excerpts Insight Volumes WTBTS)

Here is a list of all the capital crimes that could result in stoning a person to death....

Capital crimes. Under the Law the death penalty was prescribed for (1) blasphemy (Le 24:14, 16, 23); (2) worship of any god other than Jehovah, idolatry in any form (Le 20:2; De 13:6, 10, 13-15; 17:2-7; Nu 25:1-9); (3) witchcraft, spiritism (Ex 22:18; Le 20:27); (4) false prophecy (De 13:5; 18:20); (5) Sabbath breaking (Nu 15:32-36; Ex 31:14; 35:2); (6) murder (Nu 35:30, 31); (7) adultery (Le 20:10; De 22:22); (8) woman marrying with false claim of being a virgin (De 22:21); (9) intercourse with engaged girl (De 22:23-27); (10) incest (Le 18:6-17, 29; 20:11, 12, 14); (11) sodomy (Le 18:22; 20:13); (12) bestiality (Le 18:23; 20:15, 16); (13) kidnapping (Ex 21:16; De 24:7); (14) (Ex 21:15, 17); (15) bearing false witness, in a case where the penalty for the one testified against would be death (De 19:16-21); (16) coming near to the tabernacle if not authorized (Nu 17:13; 18:7).

The only one that would remotely even be misconstrued as pertaining to children would be striking or reviling a parent....this is not talking about young children, but ones old enough to be held accountable under the law.

 

[McBell]

Is there any probability of talking with you reasonably IF?

You appear to have your mind set about this issue. What makes you think the criteria is not Biblical, if I have given you the scriptures to back up every one of them?
These are not MY criteria, they are God's. I didn't make up any of them. They are direct commands and principles of God's laws.


Arbitrary? Meaning that you can't imagine anyone being able to live up to them? Or that you personally can't live up to them? Are they too hard?


It's got nothing to do with MY PERSONAL PREFERENCE. It is what is stated in God's word. Check out the scriptures for yourself.



That is nonsense. It is set out in the Bible that we must obey God in all things...we don't get to pick and choose the bits we like and reject the rest....what things do you take issue with on that list. Tell me what there is there that you find so impossible to keep? What things do you think are unnecessary?

That is true, but faith alone is not enough. If you have faith it is natural to back that up with works.

James wrote, "Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?...
Nevertheless, a certain one will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works." James 2:14, 18)

What on earth are you talking about?

Let me fill you in....

"Under the Law, a wrongdoer deserving capital punishment usually was pelted to death with stones. (Lev 20:2) This was to ‘clear out what was bad from their midst.’ All Israel would hear of the punishment, and fear of such wrongdoing would be instilled in their hearts. (Deut 13:5, 10, 11; 22:22-24) In stoning an evildoer, they showed that they were zealous for true worship, anxious to see that no reproach came upon God’s name, and desirous of maintaining a clean congregation.

Before a wrongdoer could be stoned, at least two witnesses had to give harmonious testimony against him, and thereafter they cast the first stones. (Lev 24:14; De 17:6, 7) The prospect of being the executioner made a person think searchingly in giving evidence and doubtless was a deterrent to false testimony, which, if discovered, would cost the lying witness his own life.—Deut 19:18-20.

Stoning no doubt usually took place outside the city. (Num 15:35, 36; 1Kings 21:13; contrast De 22:21.) Thereafter, as a warning, the corpse might be impaled on a stake, but not beyond sunset. It was buried that same day.—Deut 21:21-23.

Jesus spoke of Jerusalem as “the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her.” (Matt 23:37; compare Heb 11:37.) Christ himself was threatened with stoning. (John 8:59; 10:31-39; 11:8) Stephen was killed in this manner. (Acts 7:58-60) At Lystra fanatical Jews “stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, imagining he was dead.”—Acts 14:19; compare 2Cor 11:25. (excerpts Insight Volumes WTBTS)

Here is a list of all the capital crimes that could result in stoning a person to death....

Capital crimes. Under the Law the death penalty was prescribed for (1) blasphemy (Le 24:14, 16, 23); (2) worship of any god other than Jehovah, idolatry in any form (Le 20:2; De 13:6, 10, 13-15; 17:2-7; Nu 25:1-9); (3) witchcraft, spiritism (Ex 22:18; Le 20:27); (4) false prophecy (De 13:5; 18:20); (5) Sabbath breaking (Nu 15:32-36; Ex 31:14; 35:2); (6) murder (Nu 35:30, 31); (7) adultery (Le 20:10; De 22:22); (8) woman marrying with false claim of being a virgin (De 22:21); (9) intercourse with engaged girl (De 22:23-27); (10) incest (Le 18:6-17, 29; 20:11, 12, 14); (11) sodomy (Le 18:22; 20:13); (12) bestiality (Le 18:23; 20:15, 16); (13) kidnapping (Ex 21:16; De 24:7); (14) (Ex 21:15, 17); (15) bearing false witness, in a case where the penalty for the one testified against would be death (De 19:16-21); (16) coming near to the tabernacle if not authorized (Nu 17:13; 18:7).

The only one that would remotely even be misconstrued as pertaining to children would be striking or reviling a parent....this is not talking about young children, but ones old enough to be held accountable under the law.

Are you seriously so far out there that you honestly missed every single point or are you that dishonest?

 

[rusra02]

Turn over the coin and see that sometimes going to war shows love for our neighbor. In countries that are under the control of brutal regimes is refusing to overturn the regime's control exhibiting love for the subjects of those regimes? How would the world have fared if the Nazis had not been stopped? What stopped them?

A better question, I think, is how the Nazis got started and which churches (hint:virtually all of them) supported Hitler and his henchmen? So, church members of the same religions ended up slaughtering each other by the millions. Far away, IMO, from Jesus command to love your neighbor. Jesus said his followers would be no part of the world, and would therefore not share in the bloody conflicts of history. (John17:15,16)

 

[Shermana]

Without overwhelming Church support, there would never have been a Nazi Germany.

The German Churches and the Nazi State

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Is there any probability of talking with you reasonably IF?

Depends if I'm talking with you or someone else, I suppose.

You appear to have your mind set about this issue. What makes you think the criteria is not Biblical, if I have given you the scriptures to back up every one of them?

Where have I claimed your argument "isn't Biblical"? All I've said is that you are picking your criteria from the Bible based on personal preference.

These are not MY criteria, they are God's. I didn't make up any of them. They are direct commands and principles of God's laws.

Again, I never accused you of making them up. I've repeatedly stated that you are simply picking arbitrary parts of the Bible and saying that they are your "criteria" while ignoring others.

Arbitrary? Meaning that you can't imagine anyone being able to live up to them? Or that you personally can't live up to them? Are they too hard?

Do you understand what arbitrary means? Do you understand my argument? Are you even reading my posts? I never said any of those things.

It's got nothing to do with MY PERSONAL PREFERENCE. It is what is stated in God's word. Check out the scriptures for yourself.

But you're choosing them from the bible BASED on your personal preference. Why are the passages you've quoted the required criteria but, say, stoning unruly children isn't? You are setting your own criteria by picking and choosing whatever passages from the Bible fit your particular belief system and saying "no other churches qualify". Well, since you're choosing the criteria, it's not surprise.

That is nonsense. It is set out in the Bible that we must obey God in all things.

So how many unruly children have you stoned, then?

..we don't get to pick and choose the bits we like and reject the rest.

So how many adulterers have you killed?

...what things do you take issue with on that list. Tell me what there is there that you find so impossible to keep? What things do you think are unnecessary?

I never said that they were "impossible to keep". My argument has been extremely clear throughout this discussion. I'm having a difficult time believing that you do not understand it.

What on earth are you talking about?

Let me fill you in....

"Under the Law, a wrongdoer deserving capital punishment usually was pelted to death with stones. (Lev 20:2) This was to ‘clear out what was bad from their midst.’ All Israel would hear of the punishment, and fear of such wrongdoing would be instilled in their hearts. (Deut 13:5, 10, 11; 22:22-24) In stoning an evildoer, they showed that they were zealous for true worship, anxious to see that no reproach came upon God’s name, and desirous of maintaining a clean congregation.

Before a wrongdoer could be stoned, at least two witnesses had to give harmonious testimony against him, and thereafter they cast the first stones. (Lev 24:14; De 17:6, 7) The prospect of being the executioner made a person think searchingly in giving evidence and doubtless was a deterrent to false testimony, which, if discovered, would cost the lying witness his own life.—Deut 19:18-20.

Stoning no doubt usually took place outside the city. (Num 15:35, 36; 1Kings 21:13; contrast De 22:21.) Thereafter, as a warning, the corpse might be impaled on a stake, but not beyond sunset. It was buried that same day.—Deut 21:21-23.

Jesus spoke of Jerusalem as “the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her.” (Matt 23:37; compare Heb 11:37.) Christ himself was threatened with stoning. (John 8:59; 10:31-39; 11:8) Stephen was killed in this manner. (Acts 7:58-60) At Lystra fanatical Jews “stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, imagining he was dead.”—Acts 14:19; compare 2Cor 11:25. (excerpts Insight Volumes WTBTS)

Here is a list of all the capital crimes that could result in stoning a person to death....

Capital crimes. Under the Law the death penalty was prescribed for (1) blasphemy (Le 24:14, 16, 23); (2) worship of any god other than Jehovah, idolatry in any form (Le 20:2; De 13:6, 10, 13-15; 17:2-7; Nu 25:1-9); (3) witchcraft, spiritism (Ex 22:18; Le 20:27); (4) false prophecy (De 13:5; 18:20); (5) Sabbath breaking (Nu 15:32-36; Ex 31:14; 35:2); (6) murder (Nu 35:30, 31); (7) adultery (Le 20:10; De 22:22); (8) woman marrying with false claim of being a virgin (De 22:21); (9) intercourse with engaged girl (De 22:23-27); (10) incest (Le 18:6-17, 29; 20:11, 12, 14); (11) sodomy (Le 18:22; 20:13); (12) bestiality (Le 18:23; 20:15, 16); (13) kidnapping (Ex 21:16; De 24:7); (14) (Ex 21:15, 17); (15) bearing false witness, in a case where the penalty for the one testified against would be death (De 19:16-21); (16) coming near to the tabernacle if not authorized (Nu 17:13; 18:7).

The only one that would remotely even be misconstrued as pertaining to children would be striking or reviling a parent....this is not talking about young children, but ones old enough to be held accountable under the law.

Thankyou for providing a perfect example of picking and choosing from the Bible.

 

[JayJayDee]

I give up! :faint: You make no sense to me at all....so let's just agree to disagree....OK?

I'm not getting through to you...you're not getting through to me, so what is the point of continuing.

Good bye IF and have a nice day..... :sad:

 

[1nChrist]

Gods true church does not decieve people,it saves people from their sins

{2Tim2:16} All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOSNESS, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS.

{Eph 5:27} “That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of the water BY THE WORD, that he might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having SPOT OR WRINKLE; but that it should be HOLY AND WITHOUT BLEMISH.

Lets just do what His word says, and leave it at that!

He is the builder of His church, and what God builds is perfect! :yes:

 

[McBell]

Gods true church does not decieve people,it saves people from their sins

{2Tim2:16}All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOSNESS, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS.

{Eph 5:27} “That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of the water BY THE WORD, that he might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having SPOT OR WRINKLE; but that it should be HOLY AND WITHOUT BLEMISH.

Lets just do what His word says, and leave it at that!

He is the builder of His church, and what God builds is perfect! :yes:

Now all you need do is tell us which church is "Gods 'true' church".