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Is It Possible To Come to Faith by Reason Alone?

Ringer

Jar of Clay
What do ya'll think? While reason always plays an important part in faith, is it possible to only use reason to arrive at a relationship with God the way Christianity understands it? What about the Holy Spirit and what role does that play in coming to faith? How can a non-believer come to faith if they don't have the Holy Spirit? For that matter, do we at least need some faith to somehow satisfy a "requirement" of God?
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
What do ya'll think? While reason always plays an important part in faith, is it possible to only use reason to arrive at a relationship with God the way Christianity understands it? What about the Holy Spirit and what role does that play in coming to faith? How can a non-believer come to faith if they don't have the Holy Spirit? For that matter, do we at least need some faith to somehow satisfy a "requirement" of God?

I think in some part you need to have some faith..Because God isnt standing there in black and white talking to you directly and granting every wish..You suffer still..the same sufferings..

Its a matter of the heart.

I think the Holy Spirit is an "outlook"..

Love

Dallas
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I don't know. There may be some reason to it, but it seems to mostly be faith based. I guess it could be reason if a person prayed and almost or all the things he/she asked for came to pass.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
What do ya'll think? While reason always plays an important part in faith, is it possible to only use reason to arrive at a relationship with God the way Christianity understands it? What about the Holy Spirit and what role does that play in coming to faith? How can a non-believer come to faith if they don't have the Holy Spirit? For that matter, do we at least need some faith to somehow satisfy a "requirement" of God?

How could one have a relationship with God if they didn't believe in Him? Faith is essential. You have to believe to receive.
 

mfrankpdx

New Member
I don't think you can come to faith through reason alone. Faith is belief in the absence of evidence... but evidence is required for rational thought.

If you used reason alone, you would conclude that there was no virgin birth, there was no resurrection, there was no walking on water, healing the sick, the blind etc. etc... Those are all beliefs that require faith, they require you to suspend logic and reason because reason leads us to believe that the laws of the physical universe cannot be broken.
 

Luke

Member
I don't think you can come to faith through reason alone. Faith is belief in the absence of evidence... but evidence is required for rational thought.

If you used reason alone, you would conclude that there was no virgin birth, there was no resurrection, there was no walking on water, healing the sick, the blind etc. etc... Those are all beliefs that require faith, they require you to suspend logic and reason because reason leads us to believe that the laws of the physical universe cannot be broken.

överens, why don't god appear to people i n a way we will understand.
 

Jordan St. Francis

Well-Known Member
I commend the OP for this question. I don't have an answer at the moment...

The question is not whether or not we need faith- but whether our faith has a rational basis, whether reason, properly pursued, points out beyond itself and demands an act of faith.
 

fanofchiefs

New Member
What do ya'll think? While reason always plays an important part in faith, is it possible to only use reason to arrive at a relationship with God the way Christianity understands it? What about the Holy Spirit and what role does that play in coming to faith? How can a non-believer come to faith if they don't have the Holy Spirit? For that matter, do we at least need some faith to somehow satisfy a "requirement" of God?

Human reason has no part in faith. The Holy Spirit must come into your heart for faith to happen. You cannot choose to believe.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Faith is not believing without evidence. Let's put away that old canard. Rather, having faith is putting one's trust in something. To have faith in someone is to believe that the object of your faith is faithful or trustworthy. Thus "I have faith in my father" means "I trust my father because he is trustworthy." The question, then, is slightly different. It's "Is it possible to trust that God is trustworthy and faithful by reason alone?"
 

themadhair

Well-Known Member
Faith is not believing without evidence. Let's put away that old canard. Rather, having faith is putting one's trust in something. To have faith in someone is to believe that the object of your faith is faithful or trustworthy. Thus "I have faith in my father" means "I trust my father because he is trustworthy." The question, then, is slightly different. It's "Is it possible to trust that God is trustworthy and faithful by reason alone?"
Equivocation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

gzusfrk

Christian
Faith is not believing without evidence. Let's put away that old canard. Rather, having faith is putting one's trust in something. To have faith in someone is to believe that the object of your faith is faithful or trustworthy. Thus "I have faith in my father" means "I trust my father because he is trustworthy." The question, then, is slightly different. It's "Is it possible to trust that God is trustworthy and faithful by reason alone?"
no, faith is believing without evidence.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
no, faith is believing without evidence.



Faith requires logical inferences for the foundation of a real belief.

A "believer" that does not have logical, and trustworthy references on which to base their faith is guilty of credulity and fideism.

The Bible itself condemns this illogical credulity.


Proverbs 14:15 A simple man believes every word he hears; a clever man understands the need for proof
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I don't think the argument is faith vs. reason.
No. We can't approach God by reason alone. But not because "we have to have faith." It's because we have to use our intuition, as well as our reason. Spirituality is a highly intuitive endeavor.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
If by "reason" you mean the thinking, discriminating mind, then no. The approach to the divine via the intellect will not lead you directly to it. The authentic spiritual experience lies outside of reason. Listen to the words of the great Christian mystic, Nicholas of Cusa:

"....the place wherein Thou art found unveiled is girt round with the coincidence of contradictories, and this is the wall of Paradise wherein Thou dost abide. The door whereof is guarded by the most proud spirit of Reason, and, unless he be vanquished, the way in will not lie open. Thus 'tis beyond the coincidence of contradictories that Thou mayest be seen, and nowhere this side thereof."
The Vision of God

Now, what may actually happen to someone who seeks the divine essence via of reason, is that the rational mind may, in the process, self-destruct via of its own machinations, whereupon the bag of the ego is burst and universal consciousness floods in. This is the method used in Zen Buddhism via of the koan, where the rational mind reaches a point of impossibility in its attempt to 'solve' the koan, which is an illogical question posed to the student. Phd's have been reduced to tears on their meditation mats in their attempt to 'figure it out', when there is nothing to figure out.

If you think about it, belief is a product of reason, but it is maintained in order to comfort the mind via of emotional and psychological security; as a means of avoiding metaphysical anxiety.

"Do not worry. Yes, there really is a God, and he is in control, whether you think so or not. Just believe and your reward will be in heaven."

The promise of a reward (or punishment) acts as an incentive. In Zen, we call maintaining a desire for such reward a "gaining idea". Such thinking will only keep you further away from the spiritual experience.

You may recall something Jesus is reputed to have said to his disciples; that they seek eternal life within the scriptures, but are mistaken. The scriptures are second-hand accounts about the spiritual experience; they are not the spiritual experience itself. In the same vein, belief and reason are models and concepts about the spiritual experience, but not the real deal. What Jesus was saying, and what belief and reason actually do, is that the cart is being placed improperly in front of the horse.

Get the spiritual experience first; then go read and intellectualize about it with your newly transformed mind. You cannot know the divine essence with the limited, thinking mind. It is not equipped to do so. The mind must first be transformed; elevated, to the level of the divine before it can do so. What this means is that all concepts and beliefs that the thinking mind forms about the divine must be set aside. The mind must be made absolutely still and empty. As someone here pointed out previously, the approach is intuitive, rather than via of logic and reason. The intuitive mind is not the thinking mind. It is an open, empty, receptive and therefore totally attentive mind. In Zen, the thinking mind is referred to as small, or monkey mind, as it is full of chatter, while the intuitive mind that comes into play when small mind is quieted and subdued is called "Big Mind", or universal mind. You do not make it happen; it occurs of its own accord when conditions are favorable. You can create such favorable conditions by breathing and meditation practice.

Just remember that the divine essence is always at hand, always here, complete, in this eternal Present Moment, and nowhere else. Why? Because in the world of the divine, there is no time, no history, and therefore no past or future. There is only Now. To become one with the divine essence is to achieve divine union; to realize that there is no distinction between who you really are and the divine, as compared to what your rational mind tells you who you (and God) are. When this occurs, you will undergo a Spiritual Awakening, and your old ego will dissolve away. In other words, there is an aspect of your nature of which you are not aware. That is your True Nature, but it is asleep. The reason you don't see it is because your thinking mind is always looking and seeking, when what you seek is right before you.

The goal of the Religion Game is Salvation. It provides temporary Security via of Belief and Reason for some future paradise.

The goal of the Master Game is Awakening. It provides Absolute Joy in this Present Moment.

"Belief clings; Faith lets go"
Alan Watts
*****

Short Story

Baby Fish: "Momma, all my friends at school keep telling me about the Sea. What is the Sea?"
Momma Fish: "Well, baby, the Sea is all around you. It is inside you and outside of you."
Baby Fish: (Looking all around) "Where? I don't see any Sea!"
Momma Fish: "You were born into the Sea and will die in the Sea"
Baby Fish: (Still looking) "*Sigh*.. I still don't see any Sea...Oh, well...I guess it just does'nt exist after all!"
 
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Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
What do ya'll think? While reason always plays an important part in faith, is it possible to only use reason to arrive at a relationship with God the way Christianity understands it? What about the Holy Spirit and what role does that play in coming to faith? How can a non-believer come to faith if they don't have the Holy Spirit? For that matter, do we at least need some faith to somehow satisfy a "requirement" of God?

Christian theology teaches that the human race has fallen into a desperate predicament -- sin. Sin has cognitive consequences. Because of sin, we have become blind to the truth of God. We are subject to a kind of percpetual dullness. This blindness and dullness cannot be overcome by argument. Making the matter worse, sin has affective consequences. Our desires are all askew. Rather than loving God, we love ourselves. Instead of wanting to know God, we would rather promote ourselves. So even if we could know God, we don't want to. Again, this affective disorder requires a repair, and it's a repair we can't make.

But God can make that repair. That's why the Holy Spirit's work is necessary. God effects the repairs needed, and the person then acquires faith. It's as natural for a person so repaired to lovingly and joyfully receive the good news as it is for someone without that repair to resent and mock it.

In summary, reason will us you exactly nowhere without the Holy Spirit's work in our hearts and minds.
 
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