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Is it possible to talk with an atheist?

Sanmario

Active Member
Dear readers and posters here, forgive the repetition but it is necessary: because otherwise some people just want to go into useless digression, and thus in being irrelevant without any self-wit about their instinct of digression, they feel so self-smug.

Here is my concept of God, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.

And here is my proof on evidence that God exists in concept as stated above, read quote immediately following below:

This is my again concise, precise, and in clear simple language for the proof from evidence that God exists, in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning.

1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.
2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.
3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.
4. So, there are everything with a beginning that we are living with and in and within.
5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
6. Conclusion from evidence: God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.

Now, Jayhawker, produce your brand Kalam argument.


Have a good day, everyone here, thanks for your presence and participation.

It is now as I write, in my place: 03:46 a.m., Monday, April 10, 2017.

I almost forgot, please produce your serious objections to my concept of God and my proof from evidence that God as per my concept exists.

Annex
From Sanmario


@Jayhawker Soule

I see, dear Jayhawker, you are after the brand and forgetting that something in substance is better but for your bad habit of being brand servile, slavish, and thus empty-headed - I see you to be basically a stink bomb thrower, nothing more of any cognitive depth and creativity.

Okay, I will repeat my proof for God existing, and you produce your brand Kalam argument, and let readers see which one is better and clearer.

This is my again concise, precise, and in clear simple language for the proof from evidence that God exists, in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning.

1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.
2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.
3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.
4. So, there are everything with a beginning that we are living with and in and within.
5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
6. Conclusion from evidence: God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.

Now, Jayhawker, produce your brand Kalam argument.

And don't neglect to present your if any at all concept of god or God.

Sanmario said: ↑

@Jayhawker Soule

When you come over, read here my proof for God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.

1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.
2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.
3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.
4. So, there are everything with a beginng that we are living with and in and within.
5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
6. Conclusion from evidence: God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.

Still waiting for your reaction, as you are online, though you could be away from this thread.

Read you soon, I hope.


Post #201 Sanmario, Saturday at 10:29 PM
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
@siti
@leibowde84
@Jayhawker Soule
@Readers and posters


Well, dear readers here, I am back.

I had the intention of having a sustained exchange with anyone of the following three posters:

@siti
@leibowde84
@Jayhawker Soule

I can only and want to deal with only any one poster at a time.

If the three above are no longer keen to have a sustained exchange with me, then I can invite anyone available and willing to take up a one on one exchange with me.
I'm down to debate.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
There are some problems with your proof here.

1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.
2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.
3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.
We know that babies aren't created by God. They are created by human beings mating. We have physical proof and substantial understanding of how an egg is fertilized by sperm, then develops into a fetus, and then, after about 9 months, develops into a human being (baby) and is born. We also know exactly how roses reproduce and create more roses. So, here you have to rephrase your argument, as there is no need for God in the procreation of already living species. Thus, this does not support your claim that God exists.
4. So, there are everything with a beginning that we are living with and in and within.
We currently do not know whether the universe had a beginning. It could be in an infinite repetition of expansion and contraction.
5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
What evidence? You haven't provided anything that cannot be explained scientifically without any need for God.
6. Conclusion from evidence: God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
You are still way off from this being true.
 

Sanmario

Active Member
How would you like to have found God?




There are some problems with your proof here.

1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.
2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.
3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.
We know that babies aren't created by God. They are created by human beings mating. We have physical proof and substantial understanding of how an egg is fertilized by sperm, then develops into a fetus, and then, after about 9 months, develops into a human being (baby) and is born. We also know exactly how roses reproduce and create more roses. So, here you have to rephrase your argument, as there is no need for God in the procreation of already living species. Thus, this does not support your claim that God exists.
4. So, there are everything with a beginning that we are living with and in and within.
We currently do not know whether the universe had a beginning. It could be in an infinite repetition of expansion and contraction.
5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
What evidence? You haven't provided anything that cannot be explained scientifically without any need for God.
6. Conclusion from evidence: God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
You are still way off from this being true.
 

Sanmario

Active Member
@leibowde84

You say,
"I guess it would be on you to prove that the universe had a beginning."

Leave the universe aside because you have not defined your concept of the universe.

And neither have I with you, not yet.

I will go right away to the proof from evidence of God existing in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning.

Assuming that you are homo sapiens, I can and will prove to you as to all homines sapientes who do reason on observation into intelligent conclusion, that God exists, from evidence by the following steps, see below.

When you want to object to my proof from evidence, please first present your concept of God, so no need yet to have uttered words against my proof from evidence of God: because you have not yet presented your concept of God, and wherefore I don't know and readers don't know what god or God you are proving to be non-existent,


My proof from evidence of God existing step by step:

This is my again concise, precise, and in clear simple language for the proof from evidence that God exists, in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning.

1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.
2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.
3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.
4. So, there are everything with a beginning that we are living with and in and within.
5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
6. Conclusion from evidence: God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
@leibowde84

You say,
"I guess it would be on you to prove that the universe had a beginning."

Leave the universe aside because you have not defined your concept of the universe.

And neither have I with you, not yet.

I will go right away to the proof from evidence of God existing in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning.

Assuming that you are homo sapiens, I can and will prove to you as to all homines sapientes who do reason on observation into intelligent conclusion, that God exists, from evidence by the following steps, see below.

When you want to object to my proof from evidence, please first present your concept of God, so no need yet to have uttered words against my proof from evidence of God: because you have not yet presented your concept of God, and wherefore I don't know and readers don't know what god or God you are proving to be non-existent,


My proof from evidence of God existing step by step:

This is my again concise, precise, and in clear simple language for the proof from evidence that God exists, in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning.

1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.
2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.
3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.
4. So, there are everything with a beginning that we are living with and in and within.
5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
6. Conclusion from evidence: God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
I already responded to each of these points in a previous post, and pointed out the logical inconsistency with your "proof" here.

As for a concept of God, I think we should stick with your concept of God. I will attempt to show why your evidence for God is not valid. My concept of God is not definable, and I would never claim that I could prove or provide evidence for God's existence.
 

Sanmario

Active Member
@leibowde84


You say,
"As for a concept of God, I think we should stick with your concept of God. I will attempt to show why your evidence for God is not valid."

I am waiting for your explanation why, no not of my evidence, but why my concept of God is not valid.
 

Sanmario

Active Member
And please don't refer to what you said in previous posts, just say it again now and in the instant context, then you can if you care to, add that you already said that in previous times.
 

Sanmario

Active Member
@leibowde84


Dear leibowde84, you say:
"I'm down to debate.

Post #224 leibowde84, Today at 9:25 AM

Are you saying:

1. You are not into debate?
2. You are into debate?
3. You don't care to debate?
4. You don't intend to be systematic in delivering your thoughts?

From my part, in effect we are into a debate, on god or God exists - or not.

Or, please tell me what do you exactly want to convince me on - just exert effort to present your thoughts as to convince me by sticking to some system that is logical, like we start with definitions of important terms, e.g., god or God, universe, evidence, existence, etc.

So, don't tell me and readers that you don't have a definable concept of God.
As for a concept of God, I think we should stick with your concept of God. I will attempt to show why your evidence for God is not valid. My concept of God is not definable, and I would never claim that I could prove or provide evidence for God's existence.

Post #230 leibowde84, Today at 10:28 AM

Tell you what, dear leibowde84, think with precision, search your heart and mind, What concisely, precisely, in clear simple language is the point you are driving at?

1. That God does not exist?
2 That God exists but you are not certain?
3. That you don't have any definable concept of God?
4. That my concept of God is not a valid concept, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning?
5. Or what else?

My point in concise, precise, simple clear language is to prove from evidence that God exists in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.
2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.
3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.
4. So, there are everything with a beginning that we are living with and in and within.
5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
6. Conclusion from evidence: God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.

OK, here's an equivalent argument for the existence of Mickey Mouse

1. Enunciate the concept of Mickey Mouse, namely, in concept Mickey Mouse is an animal that makes people laugh
2. I go to the realm of existence to look for people laughing at Mickey Mouse
3. I see people laughing at Mickey Mouse
4. So Mickey Mouse does make people laugh
5. These people are evidence of Mickey Mouse existing as an animal that makes people laugh
6. Conclusion from evidence: Mickey Mouse exists in concept as an animal that makes people laugh.

So now, tell me what is the logical, philosophical difference between the two arguments - apart from them being equally fatuous? Because as far as I can see, all your "argument' proves is that God exists as a "concept" - it doesn't even prove - doesn't even give any evidence - that the concept is even a sound one let alone a non-fictional one. From your proof, God could exist conceptually in exactly the same sense as Mickey Mouse exists - as a purely fictional character that stories have been written about. Not saying that this is what I believe, but this is all you have proved - and we already knew that.
 
Last edited:

Sanmario

Active Member
@siti

The difference between Mickey Mouse in your concept is that it makes people laugh; but in my concept of God, God is the creator of everything with a beginning.


Dear readers and posters here:

I want to tell you again, that this is my precise and concise concept of God in clear simple language:
"In concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning."

And here again in concise and precise clear simple language is my proof from evidence of God existing in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning, see below in Annex.

Now, people who do not think on reason and observation as to come to intelligent conclusion, on evidence that God exists, in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning, they should just keep to the company of monkeys and mice and flying spaghetti monsters and invisible pink unicorns and teapots orbiting in space, also tooth fairies, but please do not write in an internet forum.

Dear readers and posters here, do you know the distinction between the objectival realm and the conceptival realm?

Concepts like Mickey Mouse that makes people laughs, that Mickey Mouse, it is in the conceptival realm, i.e. in the brain of siti, or presumably also in his mind because there be humans who have brain but are mindless, in which case they are like siti at home with monkeys and mice viz. in siti's objectival realm.

That is for comic relief though it is also didactic for humans who live with monkeys and mice as to have an ape for an avatar, and think Mickey Mouse when the conversation is about God in concept the creator of everything with a beginning.

Before I forget, also, dear readers and posters here, think about what is a valid concept as opposed to an invalid concept.

Annex
From Sanmario

1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.
2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.
3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.
4. So, there are everything with a beginning that we are living with and in and within.
5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
6. Conclusion from evidence: God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
There are some problems with your proof here.

1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.
2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.
3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.
We know that babies aren't created by God. They are created by human beings mating. We have physical proof and substantial understanding of how an egg is fertilized by sperm, then develops into a fetus, and then, after about 9 months, develops into a human being (baby) and is born. We also know exactly how roses reproduce and create more roses. So, here you have to rephrase your argument, as there is no need for God in the procreation of already living species. Thus, this does not support your claim that God exists.
4. So, there are everything with a beginning that we are living with and in and within.
We currently do not know whether the universe had a beginning. It could be in an infinite repetition of expansion and contraction.
5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
What evidence? You haven't provided anything that cannot be explained scientifically without any need for God.
6. Conclusion from evidence: God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
You are still way off from this being true.
A "beginning," like an "ending," is an illusion: it exists only in word. A rose was a bud and will be dust; a drop is the ocean.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
@leibowde84


You say,
"As for a concept of God, I think we should stick with your concept of God. I will attempt to show why your evidence for God is not valid."

I am waiting for your explanation why, no not of my evidence, but why my concept of God is not valid.
Your concept of God is fine. It is not falsifiable, which puts more responsibility on you to provide substantial evidence. But, we can go forward if you are willing.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Are you saying:

1. You are not into debate?
2. You are into debate?
3. You don't care to debate?
4. You don't intend to be systematic in delivering your thoughts?

From my part, in effect we are into a debate, on god or God exists - or not.

Or, please tell me what do you exactly want to convince me on - just exert effort to present your thoughts as to convince me by sticking to some system that is logical, like we start with definitions of important terms, e.g., god or God, universe, evidence, existence, etc.

So, don't tell me and readers that you don't have a definable concept of God.
I mean that I am ready to debate. Sorry, that was a bit of American slang.

I want to convince you that your argument for the existence of God is faulty (not logically sound). That is all.
Tell you what, dear leibowde84, think with precision, search your heart and mind, What concisely, precisely, in clear simple language is the point you are driving at?

1. That God does not exist?
2 That God exists but you are not certain?
3. That you don't have any definable concept of God?
4. That my concept of God is not a valid concept, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning?
5. Or what else?

My point in concise, precise, simple clear language is to prove from evidence that God exists in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning.
I would like to debate you on the logical validity of your so called "evidence for the existence of God". I think it is faulty and doesn't stand up to even a minimal amount of scrutiny.

I have explained in my previous post where I go through each part of your evidence.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
The point, dear @Sanmario, is that both Mickey Mouse and your concept of God can easily be proven to exist in the "conceptival" realm (as you call it) by an unbelievably clumsy and trivial, but admittedly nonetheless convincing, "argument". So what? So people invent all kinds of stupid concepts that have no basis in reality. We all know that God exists as a concept. Most of us even recognize that the concept of God you propose is a common one - the Creator. This is not news to anyone.

What you have repeatedly failed (now through an entire 12 pages of discussion) to demonstrate is that the universe can be proven to have had a beginning. So far you have failed to post a single thread of evidence to that effect, let alone prove it.

You say you look around and see things like babies and roses...etc. that obviously had a beginning...but guess what. We all know where babies come from. Your beginning was not specifically initiated by God (you can trust me on that - but if you remain unsure you could ask your parents to explain).

Anyway, I know I have already wasted too much time (and patience - which I have in limited supply - I have already deleted several expletives from this post - as an aside, I wonder if you can guess where they were?) on this discussion and I have no idea why - perhaps because I was secretly hoping to recover something I lost a long time ago - faith in absurdity - it hasn't worked I'm afraid.

Please post your evidence for the universe having a beginning.
 

Sanmario

Active Member
@siti


[N.B. Better not to read my message here, because I am into hyperbole, still the substance of my thought is clear and relevant in regard to the title of this thread, Is it possible to talk with an atheist, or a wannabee atheist?]

@ALL readers and posters, in particular folks who think on reason and observation as to come to intelligent conclusion, instead of behaving so smugly arrogant as to not even realize that they are talking all inside their brain, and when outside their brain they are mindless, because they live with chimps and have one for an avatar, and with mice, one of which is all inside their brain namely Mickey Mouse.


Dear siti, please do not run away and again throwing a stink bomb on the way to the exit.

Return, because I like very much to tell you that you are so smugly arrogant with your narrow brain reach, but you never go into the objective world of babies at home and roses in the garden and the moon in the evening sky and the sun in the morning sky.

Please, siti, try to look into yourself, and see whether you are not all the time into a most awful psychological condition of smug arrogance, and nothing of any genuine cognitive depth and substance.

Dear readers and posters here, siti is no different from atheists whose only argument against God existing in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning, is to insult God with ridiculous groundless analogies, like with siti in his smugly arrogant brain, with comparing God to Mickey Mouse.

In that groundless comparison siti has already proven to his own smug arrogant heart and brain that he is just viable only to talk with chimps and mice, but nothing else of genuine human reasoning on observation as to come to intelligent conclusion, on the reality of God existing in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning.

Do you notice, dear readers and posters here, that with atheists which I see siti to be emulating to fit into, it is all ridiculous insults to God with them atheists; I tend to think siti is one for adopting also the perverse attitude of no thinking at all but all hurling insults with absurd analogies against God, Who is in concept the creator of everything with a beginning.

Dear readers and posters here, let us sit back and witness whether siti has the intellectual guts to return and continue our exchange, or he is inanely happy to stay away and continue to nurse his vacuous - shame to him - hot foul stench of smug arrogance.

There, that is, forgive me though, my assessment of siti, he with a chimp for an avatar and living with monkeys and mice, but so pretentious as to dwell in smug arrogance that he can write in a net forum, when all he can do is to think up nonsense thoughts all inside his brain only.

Again, that is for comic relief, but didactic I hope reading for siti, in aid of self-examination by himself of his cognitive inanity and vacuity.


And don’t imitate me, dear readers and posters here, in my comic relief.

But do read and think on reason and observation as to reach intelligent conclusion, on any issue of genuine relevance in our search for pure gold wisdom on the default status of things in the totality of reality which is existence.

Annex
@siti

The difference between Mickey Mouse in your concept is that it makes people laugh; but in my concept of God, God is the creator of everything with a beginning.


Dear readers and posters here:

I want to tell you again, that this is my precise and concise concept of God in clear simple language:
"In concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning."

And here again in concise and precise clear simple language is my proof from evidence of God existing in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning, see below in Annex.

Now, people who do not think on reason and observation as to come to intelligent conclusion, on evidence that God exists, in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning, they should just keep to the company of monkeys and mice and flying spaghetti monsters and invisible pink unicorns and teapots orbiting in space, also tooth fairies, but please do not write in an internet forum.

Dear readers and posters here, do you know the distinction between the objectival realm and the conceptival realm?

Concepts like Mickey Mouse that makes people laughs, that Mickey Mouse, it is in the conceptival realm, i.e. in the brain of siti, or presumably also in his mind because there be humans who have brain but are mindless, in which case they are like siti at home with monkeys and mice viz. in siti's objectival realm.

That is for comic relief though it is also didactic for humans who live with monkeys and mice as to have an ape for an avatar, and think Mickey Mouse when the conversation is about God in concept the creator of everything with a beginning.

Before I forget, also, dear readers and posters here, think about what is a valid concept as opposed to an invalid concept.
From Sanmario

Proof from evidence of God existing in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning.
1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.
2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.
3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.
4. So, there are everything with a beginning that we are living with and in and within.
5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
6. Conclusion from evidence: God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.

#235 Sanmario, Yesterday at 5:06 PM
 

Sanmario

Active Member
Now, I am going to read the new posts of today, thanks everyone for your presence and participation.

I want to see whether in your messages you show your acquaintance and presence of mind, in re the distinction between the objectival realm and the conceptival realm.

That is one distinction for clear thinking as to be able to know when you are dwelling all in your mind only, or also connected to the world outside our mind and independent of our mind, like babies at home and roses in the garden and the sun in the morning sky and the moon in the evening sky, they all exist in reality even when we are mindless as when we are in a deep dreamless sleep or in general anesthesia.

That is one distinction that will save you from inane vacuous smug arrogance, with unwittingly confusing what is in your mind only with the realities outside your mind.

Now, I will read the new posts of today.
 
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