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Is it possible to talk with an atheist?

siti

siti

Well-Known Member
columbus said:
Let me try to rephrase the point I believe that @siti is making.
Your claim that the universe had a beginning is without evidence. It seems intuitively true, because humans are programmed to see things in terms of beginning and end, but we have come to learn that isn't how things work in reality. Reality moves in cycles and transformation. So the universe may very well not have a beginning and the singularity is a transformation event and not a creation.

I hope siti will correct me if I am mistaken.
Tom
Click to expand...
More or less - but I get the distinct impression that long, logically developed arguments are not going to be effective here, so I want to take Sanmario through it step by step - if he's willing to go along.
 
siti

siti

Well-Known Member
Well its either yes or no - so lets go one by one...

If the cause was/is subject to or capable of change, in what sense is it, itself other than the universe?

If the cause was not/is not subject to or capable of change then the universe could not have happened since no change could have occurred in order to cause the universe to begin to exist.

So now - to use your parlance, its up to you. You must either offer a logically sound third option, answer or refute (with logic) one or both of the above.
 
Last edited:
Sanmario

Sanmario

Active Member
@shunyadragon
@ChristineM
@hadrianus
@Curious George
@columbus
@9-10ths_Penguin
@siti




Let's go back to this post from you, dear siti:

From siti

Sanmario said: ↑

The cause of the universe was present before the universe.
Click to expand...


Was this cause subject to or capable of change?


Post siti #83
Click to expand...


You notice that you concur with me there is the cause of the universe before the universe began?

So, let me be your pupil as you know more and better than me on the cause of the universe.

Please answer your own question, or choose your own answer to your own question, and I will see whether you make sense.
 
shunyadragon

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Sanmario said:



The cause of the universe was present before the universe.
Click to expand...


This assertion does not differentiate from the possibility of a simple eternal physical existence without a beginning, which is possible, and physical existence created with a greater cosmos of possible universes. There are a number of possibilities based on the known evidence concerning the nature of our physical existence, and one particular Theistic view you have not considered. From the Baha'i perspective our physical existence is Created eternal as the eternal image of the attributes of God in physical form. A simple analogy is a shadow will always exist as long as the light exists.
 
Sanmario

Sanmario

Active Member
@shunyadragon
@ChristineM
@hadrianus
@Curious George
@columbus
@9-10ths_Penguin
@siti


Okay, I am back, let's resume our exchange, dear siti, below is my post to you prior to my coffee break.

From Sanmario
___________

@shunyadragon
@ChristineM
@hadrianus
@Curious George
@columbus
@9-10ths_Penguin
@siti



Let's go back to this post from you, dear siti:

From siti

Sanmario said: ↑

The cause of the universe was present before the universe.​
Click to expand...
​

Was this cause subject to or capable of change?


Post siti #83
Click to expand...


You notice that you concur with me there is the cause of the universe before the universe began?

So, let me be your pupil as you know more and better than me on the cause of the universe.

Please answer your own question, or choose your own answer to your own question, and I will see whether you make sense.


#88
Sanmario, 51 minutes ago
Click to expand...
 
Sanmario

Sanmario

Active Member
@shunyadragon
@ChristineM
@hadrianus
@Curious George
@columbus
@9-10ths_Penguin
@siti



Sanmario said: ↑
The cause of the universe was present before the universe.

Siti said
Was this cause subject to or capable of change?
Click to expand...


From the exchange above, you notice that you concur with me there is the cause of the universe before the universe began?

So, let me be your pupil as you know more and better than me on the cause of the universe.

To your question below, please answer your own question, or choose your own answer to your own question, and I will see whether you make sense.



siti said:
Well its either yes or no - so lets go one by one...

If the cause was/is subject to or capable of change, in what sense is it, itself other than the universe?

If the cause was not/is not subject to or capable of change then the universe could not have happened since no change could have occurred in order to cause the universe to begin to exist.

So now - to use your parlance, its up to you. You must either offer a logically sound third option, answer or refute (with logic) one or both of the above.
Click to expand...
 
Sanmario

Sanmario

Active Member
Please, you did not choose to answer your own question that is in post #87, that is what I am requesting you to do, answer your own question, because you know more and better than me, on the cause of the universe.
 
siti

siti

Well-Known Member
If the cause is changeable then it is no different than the universe itself (in that it - the change itself - requires a cause - can you think of any change that did not have a cause?)

If the cause is unchangeable then the universe could not have begun to exist (how can anything begin to exist in circumstances where no change is possible?).

Since the universe does (it appears) exist, and is (it appears) constantly changing, I conclude that it (the ever-changing universe) must have always existed and therefore it had no beginning.
 
Sanmario

Sanmario

Active Member
Sanmario

Sanmario

Active Member
Sorry, siti, you are still online.

So, please reply to my request on answering your own question in post #87.
 
Sanmario

Sanmario

Active Member
@shunyadragon
@ChristineM
@hadrianus
@Curious George
@columbus
@9-10ths_Penguin
@siti




Dear siti, you tell me:

Since the universe does (it appears) exist, and is (it appears) constantly changing,

I conclude that it (the ever-changing universe) must have always existed and therefore it had no
beginning.
Click to expand...


Here, I will enumerate the text above into parts:

1. Since the universe does (it appears) exist,

2. and is (it appears) constantly changing,

3. I conclude that it (the ever-changing universe) must have always existed and therefore it had no beginning.



In No. 3, you it appears forget to mention (it appears), why?


Anyway, will you concur with you me that you are talking in an if scenario, that is all in your mind, in what I call the conceptival realm, as distinct from the objectival realm which is outside of our mind and independent of our mind.


Are you concluding from your if scenario that in the objectival realm of babies at home and roses in our garden, which are part and parcel of the universe, the universe has always existed?

Is that kind of a transit legitimate and valid: from an if scenario to the objective reality of babies and roses and everything that make up the universe, that the universe had no beginning?



From siti



If the cause is changeable then it is no different than the universe itself (in that it - the change itself - requires a cause - can you think of any change that did not have a cause?)

If the cause is unchangeable then the universe could not have begun to exist (how can anything begin to exist in circumstances where no change is possible?).

Since the universe does (it appears) exist, and is (it appears) constantly changing, I conclude that it (the ever-changing universe) must have always existed and therefore it had no beginning.


#97 siti, Today at 10:44 AM
Click to expand...
 
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