Is it right to deny the American people jobs because of your religion?

[Reptillian]

Lets switch to electric everything! Where does that electricity come from you ask? Forget fossil fuels...nuclear power!...thats the ticket. Building new nuclear power plants and updating our country's infrastructure for the 21st century, that'll create a host of new jobs. Do you have any idea how many worn old roads and rotton telephone poles there are dotting the countryside? If we build new fission plants now, they should be ready to be decommisioned around the time that fusion power becomes viable.

Green tech and environmental awareness can create jobs too. More recycling centers and garbage processing facilities..jobs. Inspectors to make sure that greedy businessmen aren't poisoning our air and water...jobs. Building and maintaining pollution processing facilities...jobs. The environmentalists could accuse those opposed to green tech of wanting to prevent job creation too.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why continue for oil when we know there is much room for improvement in sustainable energy? We know we will run out of oil, some predict much sooner than predicted, and it's something we must work to diverting. Continuing to fall back on oil and coal will set up a continuing trend, and likely set us up for a very large disaster when it's gone.
There are ways to make it work, but sustainable energy doesn't quite have the profits oil and coal does. The price of oil and coal are also easy to justify increasing prices, unlike the wind or sun which are not resources that are gone once the energy is consumed.
And it's not gauranteed any jobs constructing would be American. The financing would be coming from a Canadian source, and I'm pretty sure they would be looking out for there own before foreigners. Much like how our own government used American based contractors for several purposes in Iraq and Afghanistan when they could have contracted local workers.
And could you imagine how people would perceive you, and what would happen to your chances of holding onto your position, if people were angry with you because instead of giving jobs to your own people you outsourced them?

 

[Penumbra]

Lets switch to electric everything! Where does that electricity come from you ask? Forget fossil fuels...nuclear power!...thats the ticket. Building new nuclear power plants and updating our country's infrastructure for the 21st century, that'll create a host of new jobs. Do you have any idea how many worn old roads and rotton telephone poles there are dotting the countryside? If we build new fission plants now, they should be ready to be decommisioned around the time that fusion power becomes viable.

Green tech and environmental awareness can create jobs too. More recycling centers and garbage processing facilities..jobs. Inspectors to make sure that greedy businessmen aren't poisoning our air and water...jobs. Building and maintaining pollution processing facilities...jobs. The environmentalists could accuse those opposed to green tech of wanting to prevent job creation too.

Another good one is the Atlantic Wind Connection.

A major infrastructure project, partially funded by Google, hopes to build a huge connection grid for offshore wind turbines for the Atlantic coast of the country. Initial capacity could be several gigawatts, and expansion could result in dozens of gigawatts of electricity. Plus all the work of building it over years and years.

It has to get through regulation and political disagreements.

 

[Reptillian]

Another good one is the Atlantic Wind Connection.

A major infrastructure project, partially funded by Google, hopes to build a huge connection grid for offshore wind turbines for the Atlantic coast of the country. Initial capacity could be several gigawatts, and expansion could result in dozens of gigawatts of electricity. Plus all the work of building it over years and years.

It has to get through regulation and political disagreements.

I hadn't heard of that, its sounds like a good/promising idea. I'm sure the politicians will find some way to stifle it so they can appease their oil loving corporate overlords.

 

[Reverend Rick]

The folks who have a Chevy Volt may not be burning as much oil but our electricity around here comes from burning coal.

Real improvement.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Id say go for it. Put the pipe in.

Though of course if Obama tries, the Republicans will have a hissy fit

 

[Penumbra]

The folks who have a Chevy Volt may not be burning as much oil but our electricity around here comes from burning coal.

Real improvement.

It's an improvement or a retraction based on different metrics.

The United States has a ton of coal, so burning coal instead of oil reduces our trade deficit, since a large portion of our trade deficit would be eliminated if we eliminated oil. Coal, however, is said to be worse for the environment than oil.

But as solar and wind power greater portions of the grid, that Chevy volt could be powered by those. Around me, a Chevy Volt would likely be powered by nuclear power or natural gas, and maybe one day wind turbines. There's also a solar installation, but it's rather small.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

He made a call based on environmental/economic risk weighed against the chance to increase energy security and have several billion dollars invested in a large construction project.

From what I understand the project isn't dead and can be approved or altered through other means.

Right. What just happened is that the Republicans tried to circumvent the normal environmental assessment and approval process, and Obama didn't go along with this. The pipeline hasn't been cancelled; it just hasn't been inappropriately fast-tracked.

As someone who works quite a bit within the environmental assessment framework myself (though typically for highways, not pipelines), I think it's completely inappropriate to try to politicize the process the way the Republicans did.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Id say go for it. Put the pipe in.

Though of course if Obama tries, the Republicans will have a hissy fit

It could see it happening. Obama decides tomorrow he wants the pipeline, and just as soon as he announces it the Republicans would oppose it.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Right. What just happened is that the Republicans tried to circumvent the normal environmental assessment and approval process, and Obama didn't go along with this. The pipeline hasn't been cancelled; it just hasn't been inappropriately fast-tracked.

As someone who works quite a bit within the environmental assessment framework myself (though typically for highways, not pipelines), I think it's completely inappropriate to try to politicize the process the way the Republicans did.

We had a two year study, Obama wants another one.

We have over six thousand miles of pipe line already what will another 1,700 miles hurt?

Obama did not listen to the last study, why do we need another one?

 

[Daemon Sophic]

The folks who have a Chevy Volt may not be burning as much oil but our electricity around here comes from burning coal.

Real improvement.

The CO and many other pollutants created by even a coal power plant in order to feed the needs on one Chevy Volt is much less than the pollutants created by burning gas within the combstion engine of a normal car. But as others have pointed out, as the grid gets further and further from oil and coal plants, then even the tiny pollutants needed for eaxh Chevy Volt will continue to fall.

Rick. You have to stop being short sighted. You have to think about the country and the world that your great great grandchildren will be living in. There have been tens of thousands of green jobs created over the last decade (many tens of thousands by some reports). But these jobs are just the spark. They are the catalyst. These workers are creating the infrastructure for tens or hundreds of times their current number in the decades to come.

Face it, your gas guzzler is a relic, just like a model T. Go ahead and keep it around and tinker on it, so that your grandkids can marval at the noisy, stinky machine that grandpa used to drive. Every other advanced nation is outstripping us in clean energy research and development (especially China). And with advanced tech goes teaching/universities/researchers. Government grants are meant for R&D for startup companies and technologies. Not as CEO bonus gifts for the richest companies in the history of the Earth. Solyndra, just like dozens of other clean energy companies that are getting paltry government grants was a case example of howna few such startups will fail. (hmmmm curious how the liberal media only discusses Solyndra when so many of the athers are growing quite nicely. Must be a fluke) :sarcastic

Imagine how fast our nation would grow, in tech, in jobs, in profits, in security from war-riven, oil-rich theocracies (and all the savings that would produce)..... if even half of the gratuitous funding for the oil companies was instead sent to where it was originally intended. To startup joints like wind, solar, tidal, and geothermal companies.

It is going to happen. Sorry. check that....... It IS happening. whether the US is going to stay strong and lead the way, or whether we crumble and get dragged along like a whiny and spoiled child.

PS - if you have money to invest, then invest in green tech.

Study Cites Strong Green Job Growth - NYTimes.com

Green technology investments lead third-quarter venture funding - Los Angeles Times

 

[Mathematician]

The folks who have a Chevy Volt may not be burning as much oil but our electricity around here comes from burning coal.

Some improvement.

When it gets 100 miles per gallon, yes.

Besides most electric companies in the U.S. get at least 10% of their energy from alternative means; http://www.un.org/esa/sustdev/sdissues/energy/op/beijing_re_egm/beijing_re_report.pdf

These cars are the future. The technology that went into producing the Volta is projected to be used (with minor updates) for at least fifteen years.

Solyndra went bankrupt partially because it was competing with a Chinese business that was heavily subsidized by the Chinese government, by the way.

 

[averageJOE]

Legalize hemp. So much better for the environment and you don't have to build a pipeline.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Rick. You have to stop being short sighted. You have to think about the country and the world that your great great grandchildren will be living in. There have been tens of thousands of green jobs created over the last decade (many tens of thousands by some reports). But these jobs are just the spark. They are the catalyst. These workers are creating the infrastructure for tens or hundreds of times their current number in the decades to come.

Face it, your gas guzzler is a relic, just like a model T. Go ahead and keep it around and tinker on it, so that your grandkids can marval at the noisy, stinky machine that grandpa used to drive. Every other advanced nation is outstripping us in clean energy research and development (especially China). And with advanced tech goes teaching/universities/researchers. Government grants are meant for R&D for startup companies and technologies. Not as CEO bonus gifts for the richest companies in the history of the Earth. Solyndra, just like dozens of other clean energy companies that are getting paltry government grants was a case example of howna few such startups will fail. (hmmmm curious how the liberal media only discusses Solyndra when so many of the athers are growing quite nicely. Must be a fluke) :sarcastic

Imagine how fast our nation would grow, in tech, in jobs, in profits, in security from war-riven, oil-rich theocracies (and all the savings that would produce)..... if even half of the gratuitous funding for the oil companies was instead sent to where it was originally intended. To startup joints like wind, solar, tidal, and geothermal companies.

It is going to happen. Sorry. check that....... It IS happening. whether the US is going to stay strong and lead the way, or whether we crumble and get dragged along like a whiny and spoiled child.

PS - if you have money to invest, then invest in green tech.

Study Cites Strong Green Job Growth - NYTimes.com

Green technology investments lead third-quarter venture funding - Los Angeles Times

My gas guzzler a relic? No, it's a six speed 160 MPH machine.

My truck? Got anything electric that will haul dirt moving machines to my work site?

Any electric bulldozers?

Look in your drive way. Look in your neighbors drive way These folks have to go to work TODAY.

Get with the times? Green folks bragging about wind power producing a mega watt of electricity? That is a drop in the bucket of what we need each day.

Ethanol ruins fuel lines and raises the price of corn which we need for cattle food not gasoline. It takes a gallon of gasoline to produce a gallon of ethanol which has a lower BTU rating.

Americans need jobs right now, not more expensive less performing products they cannot afford to buy because we have no jobs.

Americans cannot afford to live green right now. We need cheap energy.

 

[Reptillian]

My gas guzzler a relic? No, it's a six speed 160 MPH machine.

My truck? Got anything electric that will haul dirt moving machines to my work site?

Any electric bulldozers?

Look in your drive way. Look in your neighbors drive way These folks have to go to work TODAY.

Get with the times? Green folks bragging about wind power producing a mega watt of electricity? That is a drop in the bucket of what we need each day.

Ethanol ruins fuel lines and raises the price of corn which we need for cattle food not gasoline. It takes a gallon of gasoline to produce a gallon of ethanol which has a lower BTU rating.

Americans need jobs right now, not more expensive less performing products they cannot afford to buy because we have no jobs.

Americans cannot afford to live green right now. We need cheap energy.

Why do you need to go 160 mph? Aren't there speed limits where you live? Electric motors can handle buldozer loads etc...its just that the infrastructure isn't in place to produce them. Thats why electric vehicles are so much more expensive and why they aren't more prevalent. Producting infrastucture will create jobs, why don't you want Americans to have jobs?

Nuclear power, it'll solve our problems...not entirely green, but will become green once fusion rolls around. Its more environmentally sound and renewable than fossil fuel too.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

My gas guzzler a relic? No, it's a six speed 160 MPH machine.

My truck? Got anything electric that will haul dirt moving machines to my work site?

Any electric bulldozers?

Look in your drive way. Look in your neighbors drive way These folks have to go to work TODAY.

Get with the times? Green folks bragging about wind power producing a mega watt of electricity? That is a drop in the bucket of what we need each day.

Ethanol ruins fuel lines and raises the price of corn which we need for cattle food not gasoline. It takes a gallon of gasoline to produce a gallon of ethanol which has a lower BTU rating.

Americans need jobs right now, not more expensive less performing products they cannot afford to buy because we have no jobs.

Americans cannot afford to live green right now. We need cheap energy.

Really? This is your retort?
Obviously industrial vehicles needed for hauling loads will have to remain gas/diesel for years to come. But looking up and down the street, just how many of these trucks and SUVs containing ONE person need to go off-road or haul freight? What percentage do you think ever left the blacktop?
Designs for electric passenger airliners, cruise ships, and bulldozers are barely conceived of at this time.
But building wind turbines, and solar panels, and researching them, and installing them. Along with installing better insulation, and updating auto factories for all these schmuks in trucks sipping lattes on their way to work. THAT will make jobs NOW. Industrial, productive jobs today, that will actually advance our nation. And when the OPEC sheiks decide (on a whim) to raise our gas prices again, your plans would have us and our working children bow and scrape to accomodate them. My "ideals" would have us laughing at them and demanding lower, not higher prices.

Again, you are thinking "Me, Now!". rather than "Us, for many decades to come.". The jobs to get us rolling are here, and expanding. Unemployment is falling.

And as far as that Canadian pipeline is concerned.....you are aware aren't you, that it was the GOP shoving in the wording of Obama's last job bill that he must decide within 60 days, that killed the pipeline for now? Right? You did know that? Right? Pre-existing regulations command the president to NOT agree with anything willy-nilly. He MUST wait till all of the implications of the pipeline have been studied (and they won't even be ready for review until June 2012). Otherwise Obama is REQUIRED to halt any go ahead. The Repugs in congress just threw it in so as to try to make Obama look bad in the "News". :yes:


PS - I'm not a big fan of ethanol-fuel. I don't try to promote it.

 

[work in progress]

So Gene and WIP, I take it you think that pipe line jobs are not important?

I think survival of the human race is what should be important, not contrived jobs numbers that will only be temporary until the pipelines are built.

We are already past peak conventional oil, and that's why there is this aggressive, headlong rush to dig up what's left, no matter how dirty, expensive or dangerous it is to take out of the ground (deep ocean drilling). Without cheap oil, civilization will have to return to the patterns prior to WWII -- re-localization of industry, and especially farming. An end of factory farming would be the most significant single factor in cutting greenhouse gas emissions. And, if I can elaborate on previous points -- if gas prices were allowed to reach their natural level, that would take a lot of cars off the road and price air travel out of existence for most people. At some point in the future, people are not going to be able to travel as easily and cheaply as they can today, and it will return to the pattern of earlier times when cities weren't designed for the needs of car drivers, and only wealthy people could afford to vacation in exotic locales. The reason I don't see millions of electric cars as the permanent solution is that most of the environment and resource costs are still going to be there with mass production of electric cars. And possible complications regarding rare earth elements that would be needed on a massive scale for high tech batteries.

Globalization will have to end once the tar sands and other dirty sources are used up; why not pull the plug on them now before they raise global average temperatures to levels that melt all the world's ice (including the East Antarctic) and cause mass extinction. And any conservatives who happen to wear the pro-life label and want personhood amendments, ought to consider the effects that selfish greed and reckless choices by people living today will have for future generations who arent' born yet, and deserve to have their chance for a decent life!

 

[Penumbra]

Get with the times? Green folks bragging about wind power producing a mega watt of electricity? That is a drop in the bucket of what we need each day.

The plans for offshore wind turbines along the Atlantic coast can produce gigawatts, not megawatts of power. Tens of millions of homes can be powered from them, if they are full developed.

Not only does that create jobs, but in the long term, we need to be the world's best at the design and production of renewable energy systems. We can export them if we're the best.

Ethanol ruins fuel lines and raises the price of corn which we need for cattle food not gasoline. It takes a gallon of gasoline to produce a gallon of ethanol which has a lower BTU rating.

We don't need corn for cattle. They're supposed to eat grass.

The federal government already spends billions of dollars subsidizing corn and other commodity farm products so that Americans spend less on food, as a percentage of income, than any other developed country. But the quality matches the price.

That being said, I don't support ethanol fuel. They grow it conventionally rather than organically, it competes with the food supply, and it's a mess in that sense. In terms of biofuels, the ones that seem more promising are second or third generation ones like the potential of algae fuels.

Americans need jobs right now, not more expensive less performing products they cannot afford to buy because we have no jobs.

Americans cannot afford to live green right now. We need cheap energy.

We can't keep saying that until we run out. Let's be the world's best at solar and wind. Americans already pay less than almost anyone else for gasoline.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Look, I want to solve the issues of today and work for better technology too. Any way you slice it, going green is going to be expensive.

I have a geothermal heating system, my house is energy star rated. I even installed a grey water system where my shower water flushes my toilets. I have had a solar water heater for 30 years. I can go off grid for months if I have to. I have a back up generator.

I grow and can my own fruit and vegetables, raise my own beef, make my own wine too.

I plant trees every year. I'm not unaware of my carbon footprint. The thing is, you cannot starve an economy in the name of green. We have to take care of today AND tomorrow.

Right now people need jobs! We can not sit back and be all holy about this in the name of the green god.

Obama did have a survey about the keystone pipeline. HE WANTS ANOTHER ONE.

He did not listen to the last survey, why would he listen to the next?

He has lofty ideals that just don't work in a bad economy. The private sector will be funding this project, it is a no-brainer.

Going green sounds great, so does putting food on the table of the American people by the sweat of their own hands, not food stamps.

We cannot afford nor do we have the time to wait on green jobs to save us.

We need to strive to tap all energy potentials dirty and clean for our independence.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We had a two year study, Obama wants another one.

As a point of comparison, I worked on the environmental assessment for about 30 miles of new toll highway - that took about 6 years from the start of the process until they got all their approvals, and that was with the government "expediting" it as much as they could.

We have over six thousand miles of pipe line already what will another 1,700 miles hurt?

That depends what's in its way, and you won't know that without actually looking... IOW, an environmental assessment.

I'm sure you would feel differently if your house was going to be expropriated to build a pipeline on a route that wasn't picked for any deeper reason than it laid along a straight line between two points on a map. If you were in that position, wouldn't you want the government to demonstrate to you through a transparent process (IOW, an environmental assessment) that the project is actually necessary and that the route that will destroy your home really is the best of all the available options?

Obama did not listen to the last study, why do we need another one?

Well, it seems like many more people than Obama thought that the work done so far wasn't good enough:

On November 10, 2011, TransCanada stated they have spoken with the U.S. Department of State and will have conversations to discuss next steps. TransCanada pointed out fourteen different routes for Keystone XL were being studied, eight that impacted Nebraska. They included one potential alternative route in Nebraska that would have avoided the entire Sandhills region and Ogallala aquifer and six alternatives that would have reduced pipeline mileage crossing the Sandhills or the aquifer.[24][25] On November 22, 2011 the governor of Nebraska signed two bills that enacted a compromise agreed upon with the pipeline builder to move the route, and approved up to US$2 million in state funding for an environmental study.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Pipeline#Keystone_XL

Edit: also, keep in mind that this project needs approvals from two countries. It's years away from getting final approval from the Canadian government, so I don't see why the American approvals need to be rushed.