Is it right to deny the American people jobs because of your religion?

[waitasec]

Thats not my position, I live a green life.

I have stated that I am a global warming agnostic.

This is not really about GW, it is about spending money we don't have on inferior technologies that go bankrupt while denying our country energy we can use right now that private industry would fund and create jobs because it does not fit into a persons green faith.

Obama wants expensive cars that folks cannot afford.

Obama wants to give money to technologies we cannot get on line or cannot afford.

Don't you believe we all should get back to work first and worry about our visions of green technology that does not exist that are too expensive later?

Buying a Prius is a good idea. Getting a job first is a better idea.

green is the future though...
and the time to develop green technology is now...
carter started it, did you know carter had solar panels installed at the white house and raygun removed them when he took office..? what foresight!! :sarcastic
had we grabbed the bull by the horns then, i don't think we would be in the position we are now.
we are depleting this planet of fossil fuels..it aitn't gonna last forever and the time to adjust is now...no one ever said adjusting would be easy...band aids don't fix da problem...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Buying a Prius is a good idea. Getting a job first is a better idea.

Since we're talking about things we're on the fence about, I'm on the fence about Priuses (Prii?).

There are a bunch of travel demand (and by extension environmental impact) reduction strategies that focus on shifting the costs of vehicle usage from fixed costs to variable costs... things like making auto insurance dependent on distance driven (and not just by telling your insurance company "oh... I think I drive XX,000 miles per year, but by using technology to report actual distance driven so that a person can realize "hey - if I walk to the store today instead of drive, then I'll save myself $X.XX in insurance!"). The Prius is a car that has a fairly high up-front purchase price, but in exchange for this, you get lower operating costs... IOW, precisely the opposite of the situation that we're trying to set up.

 

[Falvlun]

green is the future though...
and the time to develop green technology is now...
carter started it, did you know carter had solar panels installed at the white house and raygun removed them when he took office..? what foresight!! :sarcastic
had we grabbed the bull by the horns then, i don't think we would be in the position we are now.
we are depleting this planet of fossil fuels..it aitn't gonna last forever and the time to adjust is now...no one ever said adjusting would be easy...band aids don't fix da problem...

Exactly. We keep kicking this can down the road, and if we just had stopped and picked it up by now, our energy supply would be a whole lot cleaner and we'd be a whole lot less dependent upon others for it.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Exactly. We keep kicking this can down the road, and if we just had stopped and picked it up by now, our energy supply would be a whole lot cleaner and we'd be a whole lot less dependent upon others for it.

Great! I love the intentions! The thing is Solyndra went bankrupt and there where no green jobs.

T boone Pickens tried windmills, but there was no infrastructure to deliver the power from where the winds blows to where the folks needed power.

You can have an acre of solar panels and it will not run a factory. I won't even mention rainy days.

We have spent Billions on the Chevy Volt and have sold less than 10,000 of them, you do the math.

Going green is a wonderful idea, but it will not heat your home tonight or get you to work in the morning.

Yes, we can proceed with green technology, but we need jobs right now and the Keystone pipe line would cost the government nothing and put some folks to work.

Right now we need to utilise all energy and not cherry pick just what we like.

 

[Seabear]

I totally agree that we are just kicking the can down the road and it's unfortunate that so many people are that short sited. Climate change is real and if we don't do something about it soon we will die, maybe not tonight or in the morning and maybe not in a generation from now but we will die and our insignificant civilization will have made no impact what so ever on anything and all we will say is "Whoops, I'm sure we could have prevented that."

Not to mention the boost on the economy if we invest in infrastructure.

 

[T-Dawg]

Yes, we can proceed with green technology, but we need jobs right now and the Keystone pipe line would cost the government nothing and put some folks to work.

Right now we need to utilise all energy and not cherry pick just what we like.

Actually, it would probably cost the government huge amounts in environmental damage to the aquifer they're building the pipeline through, plus the negative externality of more fossil fuel emissions. People just ignore these things though, because they're hard to quantify in terms of cash.

 

[waitasec]

Great! I love the intentions! The thing is Solyndra went bankrupt and there where no green jobs.

T boone Pickens tried windmills, but there was no infrastructure to deliver the power from where the winds blows to where the folks needed power.

You can have an acre of solar panels and it will not run a factory. I won't even mention rainy days.

We have spent Billions on the Chevy Volt and have sold less than 10,000 of them, you do the math.

Going green is a wonderful idea, but it will not heat your home tonight or get you to work in the morning.

Yes, we can proceed with green technology, but we need jobs right now and the Keystone pipe line would cost the government nothing and put some folks to work.

Right now we need to utilise all energy and not cherry pick just what we like.

i'd rather get off the swing and let my children have a turn...

 

[Reverend Rick]

I totally agree that we are just kicking the can down the road and it's unfortunate that so many people are that short sited. Climate change is real and if we don't do something about it soon we will die, maybe not tonight or in the morning and maybe not in a generation from now but we will die and our insignificant civilization will have made no impact what so ever on anything and all we will say is "Whoops, I'm sure we could have prevented that."

Not to mention the boost on the economy if we invest in infrastructure.

The thing your missing is you have to have capital to invest in something.

What your actually saying is, lets borrow more money to invest in something.

When you invest, you have to have a return that will pay off the loan at the very least.

Yes, we need to worry about the planet, but we also don't want to leave our children burdened with debt so some guy way back when had a job for a while. That is not an investment.

I have a personal example, I heat my home with geo-thermal. I had to drill two wells an invest in heat exchangers and water pumps and a fancy control system.

Instead of paying 10,000 for a normal heating system, I spent over 30,000.

Yes my heating bills are lower, but I could have invested the 20,000 extra I paid for the system and made more money than I saved.

By the time I break even, my system will be worn out, not to mention I had to pay so much money up front.

I got a deal for you, I will sell you electricity for 5 cents cheaper a kilowatt but you have to pay me for 10 years of electricity up front.

People cannot afford to save money some times.

 

[Seabear]

The thing your missing is you have to have capital to invest in something.

What your actually saying is, lets borrow more money to invest in something.

When you invest, you have to have a return that will pay off the loan at the very least.

Yes, we need to worry about the planet, but we also don't want to leave our children burdened with debt so some guy way back when had a job for a while. That is not an investment.

I have a personal example, I heat my home with geo-thermal. I had to drill two wells an invest in heat exchangers and water pumps and a fancy control system.

Instead of paying 10,000 for a normal heating system, I spent over 30,000.

Yes my heating bills are lower, but I could have invested the 20,000 extra I paid for the system and made more money than I saved.

By the time I break even, my system will be worn out, not to mention I had to pay so much money up front.

I got a deal for you, I will sell you electricity for 5 cents cheaper a kilowatt but you have to pay me for 10 years of electricity up front.

People cannot afford to save money some times.

I'd rather be broke then dead. I'd also like sources predicting the outcome of an investment in green energy because I've never heard of an investment in infrastructure turning out bad for anyone.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

Thats not my position, I live a green life. Good. I and my children (and theoretical grandchildren) thank you.

I have stated that I am a global warming agnostic. You should not be. The information is plentiful, as is the review of the science.

This is not really about GW, it is about spending money we don't have on inferior technologies that go bankrupt while denying our country energy we can use right now that private industry would fund and create jobs because it does not fit into a persons green faith.

Obama wants expensive cars that folks cannot afford. You are a victim of fuzzy math, solely because you overly rely upon the "liberal" press. Check this article, almost all the way at the bottom. Myths And Facts About Electric Cars | Media Matters for America
And again, only Fox 'news' hates MMA. Those who like reality in our News see the professional journalism that MMA really is. :yes:

Obama wants to give money to technologies we cannot get on line or cannot afford.

Don't you believe we all should get back to work first and worry about our visions of green technology that does not exist that are too expensive later?

Buying a Prius is a good idea. Getting a job first is a better idea.
Rick. You really seem like a reasonable fellow, who has some initiative. Unfortunately, like millions and millions of other people who have convinced themselves that their viewpoints are sound and well considered, you are not making you decisions based upon the facts.
We are all entitled to our own opinions, but we all get to use only one set of facts. If you watch the vast majority of corporate news sources, then you are being lied to about the 'facts'. Here, Search Results: Solyndra | Media Matters for America
Take you pick of research articles. It is sad that this litany even has to exist.[/QUOTE]


PS - A logical thought.
Given:
1. Many millions of Americans think that the press is "too liberal".
2. The primary source of this thought is......the press.

Question: Would a liberal source tell you that they are woefully liberal, and should be further to the right? :sarcastic

 

[Reverend Rick]

Actually, it would probably cost the government huge amounts in environmental damage to the aquifer they're building the pipeline through, plus the negative externality of more fossil fuel emissions. People just ignore these things though, because they're hard to quantify in terms of cash.

Keystone is not some new technology that might go wrong, keystone would be a fraction of the pipelines we already have Dawg.

The green god followers said the same thing about the caribou in Alaska would be adversely affected by that pipe line and guess what? They actually like the pipe line, they huddle around it for warmth and the herds are probably larger because of it.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Look here folks, we should be pursuing all energy sources so we as a nation can be energy independent.

As the green technology gets past it's infancy, we can then shift from fossil fuel to greener pastures. THAT IS GOING TO TAKE SOME TIME.

Why is it the younger generation thinks change can come so fast?

We should have a vision for the future, but we have to balance that with the needs of today as well.

Right now we need to get folks back to work and Keystone is one way of doing that.

 

[Kathryn]

We are all entitled to our own opinions, but we all get to use only one set of facts.

Oh how I wish this was true.

 

[Kathryn]

Keystone is not some new technology that might go wrong, keystone would be a fraction of the pipelines we already have Dawg.

The green god followers said the same thing about the caribou in Alaska would be adversely affected by that pipe line and guess what? They actually like the pipe line, they huddle around it for warmth and the herds are probably larger because of it.

Next thing you know, Rick, people will be saying we're messing up the ecological balance of the Yukon by increasing the number of caribou because they get frisky when they all hang out together at the pipeline.

Caribou burger, anyone?

 

[T-Dawg]

Look here folks, we should be pursuing all energy sources so we as a nation can be energy independent.

As the green technology gets past it's infancy, we can then shift from fossil fuel to greener pastures. THAT IS GOING TO TAKE SOME TIME.

Why is it the younger generation thinks change can come so fast?

We should have a vision for the future, but we have to balance that with the needs of today as well.

Right now we need to get folks back to work and Keystone is one way of doing that.

Do you know why green technology never got past it's infancy?
Because Reagan (and those who took after him) kept neglecting the poor developing child. If we had stuck with Carter and continued to elect decent presidents (and more importantly, decent congresses), we would probably be driving around in solar powered cars and living in a safe climate.

Why is it typical Republican strategy to do everything in their power to break things and then claim they don't work? How do they benefit from ensuring that the government fails?

 

[Daemon Sophic]

Keystone is not some new technology that might go wrong, keystone would be a fraction of the pipelines we already have Dawg.

The green god followers said the same thing about the caribou in Alaska would be adversely affected by that pipe line and guess what? They actually like the pipe line, they huddle around it for warmth and the herds are probably larger because of it.

Look here folks, we should be pursuing all energy sources so we as a nation can be energy independent.

As the green technology gets past it's infancy, we can then shift from fossil fuel to greener pastures. THAT IS GOING TO TAKE SOME TIME.

Why is it the younger generation thinks change can come so fast?

We should have a vision for the future, but we have to balance that with the needs of today as well.

Right now we need to get folks back to work and Keystone is one way of doing that.

Damn the internet!
I was 2 keystrokes from an article heavy post back to you.....:cover:

Alright. Bottom line. Your info is false. It seems that, as I said before, you are being messed with by what you are counting on as news.
1. The caribou avoid the lines, and any human throughways and habitations.
2. Unemployment is now LOWER than when Obama started, and the economy is improving considerably.
3. Economists of all stripes agree.....the stimulus helped immensely. :yes: :sorry1:

Your faith in you news sources has blinded you.

If you need scholarly links, I will try again later.

 

[Reverend Rick]

How do they benefit from ensuring that the government fails?

Because the government and their regulations ARE THE PROBLEM.

The less government we have, the better off I am.

I don't want a big brother or a federal nanny taking care of me.

I want to be responsible for myself and free from governmental controls.

We have coddled your generation way too much. You have become dependant on someone else for your survival.

I understand why some folks need a government to take care of them, what I don't understand is why anyone would prefer to be dependant on anyone or anything?

Dawg, I love you brother, but your educators have brain washed you way worse than FOX news ever could.

Just so you understand, I'm saying both influences are bad OK?

Why can't people think for themselves and provide for themselves any more?

Sure, we need roads, bridges, hospitals, airports, I get that.

Do we need the government involved in every aspect of our lives?

Is it really a big deal if someone would have to buy there own rubbers for Pete's sake?

I don't understand why folks would be satisfied with what the government provides them when there is so much more to be realized just by going out there and making it happen.[/rant]

 

[Revoltingest]

Damn the internet!
I was 2 keystrokes from an article heavy post back to you.....:cover:

Alright. Bottom line. Your info is false. It seems that, as I said before, you are being messed with by what you are counting on as news.
1. The caribou avoid the lines, and any human throughways and habitations.
2. Unemployment is now LOWER than when Obama started, and the economy is improving considerably.
3. Economists of all stripes agree.....the stimulus helped immensely. :yes: :sorry1:

Your faith in you news sources has blinded you.

If you need scholarly links, I will try again later.

Are these the same economists who predicted that unemployment would never go above 8% during Obama's reign? How can economists
say the stimulus "helped immensely" with unanimity, when no experimental testing of this thesis is possible? How would an economist
say that money taken from taxpayers (either by taxation, borrowed money later repayed by taxation, or currency dilution by printing
more) is more productive when spent by government than by taxpayers who earned the money in the first place? Such analysis is lacking.
I suspect that your "facts" are really your opinions. Be careful about accusing others of "faith", lest you be hoist by your own petard.
Now, let's all avoid such ad hominem arguments.

This addresses why I believe that much of economic theory is faith based. So many pronouncements are untestable, yet they have such
faith & fervor in them. This functions much like religion, which I see as the germ of truth in Rev Rick's OP.

 

[Falvlun]

Great! I love the intentions! The thing is Solyndra went bankrupt and there where no green jobs.

Ah. So because one company in an entire industry goes bankrupt, there are no possibility of jobs in that industry. Never mind the hundreds of other solvent green companies; no, Solyndra went bankrupt, and that's the end of green tech. Here's some examples of some green companies that couldn't possibly create jobs because Solyndra went bankrupt: 25 Companies to Watch in Green Energy.

T boone Pickens tried windmills, but there was no infrastructure to deliver the power from where the winds blows to where the folks needed power.

That's exactly my point. We need to be investing in the infrastructure; we have the technology to do this. This would put people to work on the scale of building the railroads of old. And seeing as the old infrastructure is in great need of repair anyway, it seems like a remarkably great time to do it.

You can have an acre of solar panels and it will not run a factory. I won't even mention rainy days.

IIRC, that's more of a problem of storage-- again, infrastructure-- than lack of ability. Besides, even if your assertion is correct that solar energy could not power a factory, it can certainly power homes and other small energy consumers. Just because a Pontiac Sunbird can't tow a boat doesn't mean that we should only be driving F-250s.

We have spent Billions on the Chevy Volt and have sold less than 10,000 of them, you do the math.

Wasn't only 10,000 originally made? I don't know much about this, perhaps others can comment. But, in general, new technologies are expensive and usually only the rich can afford them at first. And then they become less expensive and everyone else can then jump in.

Going green is a wonderful idea, but it will not heat your home tonight or get you to work in the morning.

That's simply untrue. There are people who currently heat their house with green energy, like yourself, and who drive green cars, or choose to take public transportation, etc to get to work in the morning.

When Kennedy said he planned to put a man on the moon, wouldn't it have been strange to criticize such a plan by saying "Well, you can't do it tonight, so why bother?"

Yes, we can proceed with green technology, but we need jobs right now and the Keystone pipe line would cost the government nothing and put some folks to work.

Well, the manufacturing of the Chevy Volt put people to work too-- they built a new plant in Flint for it.

Right now we need to utilise all energy and not cherry pick just what we like.

Look here folks, we should be pursuing all energy sources so we as a nation can be energy independent.

I agree with that, but that seems to be precisely what conservatives are not doing. They are saying "We like oil" and refuse to look into anything else. I think natural gas would be a great bridge to wean us off oil and coal, but it needs to be a short-term bridge leading to an energy supply predominated by renewables.

As the green technology gets past it's infancy, we can then shift from fossil fuel to greener pastures. THAT IS GOING TO TAKE SOME TIME.

Why is it the younger generation thinks change can come so fast?

That's just it; we've been talking about this for 40 years. 40 years! I think that time has been given. What hasn't happened is action, due to greed, political pandering, and a stream of misinformation and fearmongering.

We should have a vision for the future, but we have to balance that with the needs of today as well.

Right now we need to get folks back to work and Keystone is one way of doing that.

A vision will always remain just that: A vision, unless we are willing to roll up our sleeves and get our hands dirty. This complete apathy towards energy independence is astounding to me.

What's that famous quote? Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat every day. Sure, we can give a few thousand people a job for a couple of years with this pipeline. But then it's built and the job is gone. Why not invest that time and energy and money into building the infrastructure necessary to get our country, and the world, on track towards freedom from dirty energy?

 

[Reverend Rick]

2. Unemployment is now LOWER than when Obama started, and the economy is improving considerably.

I spit coffee all over my computer.

There are lies, damn lies and statistics!

The only way unemployment is lower is because folks ran out their 99 weeks and we don't count them any more.

Surely you are not telling me you believe the recession is over and the economy is just fine?