Is It Wrong to Be Faithful/Religious in Public?

[ChristineES]

no.. if you do well, nobody else gets hurt by that, actually it adds to the well-being to everybody. poker is a zero-sum game, too. there is a fixed pot, and for someone to get more, others have to get less.

and I don't think it's fair to say praying for X means you don't care about Y, either. though personally, I actually find the idea cynical that god could do something for people, but only does so when asked. so I am not sure if I want to step on that kind of treadmill, where I imagine my prayers to have an effect without ever getting actual feedback. it would seem more sensible to help in more tangible ways. I guess I overthink such things too much to be a very good prayer anyway.

but being grateful for having done well in something which hurts nobody, or that something will go well, for which you did your best to prepare, how could that be bad in any way? one might say it's at the very least simply acknowledging the ultimate say so of god.

but to say you wouldn't wish someone else well because you wish yourself well too, is just silly IMHO. I mean, by that logic, which famine victim should I pray for? and if the answer is "all of them", does that mean lethal diseases are still fine by me?

actually,wait a second.. may everybody find peace and love and happiness, always, amen. solved!

We (Christians) are taught that God will help you even if you don't ask, but that He likes to be asked, anyway. Maybe God just likes for people to talk to Him and they only talk to Him when they want something.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And what makes you think the test was the only thing I ever prayed for? I pray all the time, and for many different reasons- mostly for others. And if I passed school, I could get my college degree and get a better job and be better off to help people in need as well- including my own children.
Honestly, do you really see me that way? It makes me kind of sad. I am not perfect but I certainly have tried all my life to help others when I could. I can see that you think that if I said that was the ONLY thing I ever prayed for.

No, I don't see you that way. I don't think that this is how you approached your prayer, and I don't think you were thinking "screw those starving kids in Africa - I want my A+", but I think there is a negative connotation if we look at the full implications of this sort of prayer in the right context.

I think it's just a matter of us having different points of view on the matter. I didn't mean to say that you had bad intent with your prayer... more that you probably didn't consider a viewpoint like mine on the implications of intercessory prayer.

I am wondering if any of you feel guilty for eating. Every time you eat something, someone else doesn't get to eat what you are eating and may starve! If you buy a new car, you care more about driving than you do about using that money to send to famine victims.
You guys need to take stock of what you say. I am deeply hurt by those statements.

I don't feel guilty for what I eat, but I also don't uphold that the means by which I get my food is necessarily good, just, fair or wise.

It's the praying theist who has a bunch of ideas to reconcile:

- God is willing to intervene in the world to effect good by doing what I want him to do.

- God isn't willing to intervene in the world to stop disease, death, heartbreak, or all the other forms of suffering that happen.

What? In what way does her actions imply that she doesnt consider starving people as important as her test? I am confused, are people not allowed to wish that tests will go well?

Sure they are, but when the mechanism for that wish has already declared through His actions that the starving and the sick aren't worth His time, presenting some other concern to Him (e.g. performance on a test) as potentially worth his time does imply that this other concern could outrank those others.

Also, there's a fair bit of hubris inherent in most intercessory prayer in the first place: if God wasn't already planning to do what you wanted anyhow, then you have to have a fair bit of gall to tell the all-knowing, all-wise ruler of the universe to amend his perfect plan for your personal benefit, IMO.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We (Christians) are taught that God will help you even if you don't ask, but that He likes to be asked, anyway. Maybe God just likes for people to talk to Him and they only talk to Him when they want something.

IIRC, Christians are also taught that God specified a particular form of prayer for the faithful to use that doesn't mention anything about tests or sporting events.

 

[connermt]

"They are all fundamentally negative though.", this.
What do you mean, they are all fundamentally negative?

IMO, (and as best I can explain it) religions are a negative force because it's a name given to a group of people who believe the same thing. Rarely do these religions follow the correct/exact course of action they claim. It's fine (relatively) to believe in a god, practice what you believe in, etc. To me, that's being more spiritual than religious. Religion is a man made institution.
And in my experience, when man/men gets invovled in most things, they eventually turn up/out negative results.

 

[connermt]

What's up with that? I am not negative at all. So your theory about all Christians being fundamentally negative has been shot down.

I never said all christians are negative. That's what you said. See above explaination.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I'm not a fan of religious publicity, but Tebow sure started my favorite meme. Every day on the bus I begin Tebowing with my friends... it's like a cult

 

[not nom]

Also, there's a fair bit of hubris inherent in most intercessory prayer in the first place: if God wasn't already planning to do what you wanted anyhow, then you have to have a fair bit of gall to tell the all-knowing, all-wise ruler of the universe to amend his perfect plan for your personal benefit, IMO.

[youtube]qdwz1ColK_k[/youtube]
Bill Hicks - RELENTLESS - God's Will - YouTube

 

[ChristineES]

I never said all Christians are negative. That's what you said. See above explanation.

Probably you didn't, but it did come across that way.

 

[ChristineES]

IIRC, Christians are also taught that God specified a particular form of prayer for the faithful to use that doesn't mention anything about tests or sporting events.

It also doesn't say we should pray for starving people. You must have read the Lord's Prayer at some point. Just because Jesus never said "Pray for tests", "pray for means of getting a new car" and so on, doesn't mean we aren't allowed to ask for things. And Jesus said we are allowed to ask for things. I mean if Jesus or the Prophets ever said what we could or could not pray for, the Bible would be 100 times bigger. And, as I said, I didn't ask for an A and I didn't pray to get a good grade when I didn't study (I always studied), I just prayed that my mind wouldn't go blank during the test so I could pass the course. I don't see anything wrong with that. And most of my prayers are for others and not for myself.
On top of that, why would anyone care if someone prayed for something? It doesn't mean that he or she is going to get it. We believe that God sometimes says "no" and we accept (most of us do).
The Lord's Prayer is a model- not an exact prayer- it says so.

 

[ChristineES]

No, I don't see you that way. I don't think that this is how you approached your prayer, and I don't think you were thinking "screw those starving kids in Africa - I want my A+", but I think there is a negative connotation if we look at the full implications of this sort of prayer in the right context.

I think it's just a matter of us having different points of view on the matter. I didn't mean to say that you had bad intent with your prayer... more that you probably didn't consider a viewpoint like mine on the implications of intercessory prayer.


I don't feel guilty for what I eat, but I also don't uphold that the means by which I get my food is necessarily good, just, fair or wise.

It's the praying theist who has a bunch of ideas to reconcile:

- God is willing to intervene in the world to effect good by doing what I want him to do.

- God isn't willing to intervene in the world to stop disease, death, heartbreak, or all the other forms of suffering that happen.


Sure they are, but when the mechanism for that wish has already declared through His actions that the starving and the sick aren't worth His time, presenting some other concern to Him (e.g. performance on a test) as potentially worth his time does imply that this other concern could outrank those others.

Also, there's a fair bit of hubris inherent in most intercessory prayer in the first place: if God wasn't already planning to do what you wanted anyhow, then you have to have a fair bit of gall to tell the all-knowing, all-wise ruler of the universe to amend his perfect plan for your personal benefit, IMO.

Ah. Although some people try to change what God already planned to do, most of us don't actually. And God does change His mind. Try reading the entire book of Jonah, if you haven't already- I am not sure if the story is literal or a parable, but the intent is very clear. If God isn't planning on doing what I asked for, then I would accept that- most of us would.

 

[Tom Terrific]

I personally can't imagine praying that I win a contest or a game, I don't think I've done that. But what about praying that you do well? Is that the same thing? I think it could be, but I don't really know. Praying that you do well may or not be praying that you win.

I think this is the key distinction that many people are missing.

If Tim Tebow prays that his team wins, simply because he wants to win, then that would be selfish. But if Tim Tebow prays that he does his best, then that is an entirely different matter.

Praying for victory in battle is more complex, because issues of justice are involved. Football is just a game; war is something else.

Praying for little things when there are children dying of starvation every hour is more a matter of one's personal relationship with his or her deity than it is about that deity's love or justice. Religion is fundamentally about relationship with the divine; and that is an on-going journey of learning to open oneself to deity. In other words, it's about trust. As trust builds, as the relationship grows stronger and more intimate, the individual becomes a more effective channel of divine power or influence in the world. The Christian scriptures say, somewhere, "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much." Learning to trust the divine for little things is a precursor to trusting the divine for far greater things. In short, prayer is about relationship.

One might then ask, why does a just and loving deity permit suffering? Each person of faith has his or her own answer for that one. But, assuming that suffering has purpose, the rest (what I have said above) stands on a secure foundation.

 

[Kerr]

Sure they are, but when the mechanism for that wish has already declared through His actions that the starving and the sick aren't worth His time, presenting some other concern to Him (e.g. performance on a test) as potentially worth his time does imply that this other concern could outrank those others.

The concept of "time" would be rather pointless when it comes to an entity that is supposed to be without limitations. He could both help the ones who starve and the ones praying for good test results.

Also, there's a fair bit of hubris inherent in most intercessory prayer in the first place: if God wasn't already planning to do what you wanted anyhow, then you have to have a fair bit of gall to tell the all-knowing, all-wise ruler of the universe to amend his perfect plan for your personal benefit, IMO.

In which case any form of prayer could be argued to be selfish or wrong. And I dont think this is the intention of the people who pray, to claim their test performance is more important then someone elses life or some grand master plan.

 

[Kathryn]

I truly don't ask God to give me specific items or outcomes. I pray that God gives me the wisdom and strength to accept His will. God knows my heart already anyway.

He's not a vending machine.

 

[waitasec]

I truly don't ask God to give me specific items or outcomes. I pray that God gives me the wisdom and strength to accept His will. God knows my heart already anyway.

He's not a vending machine.

curious,
if god knows your heart already, then why ask for these things?

 

[Photonic]

Tim Tebow threw and ran the touchdown.

Didn't you people see Jesus throwing the ball to him and then carrying him down the field?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I truly don't ask God to give me specific items or outcomes. I pray that God gives me the wisdom and strength to accept His will. God knows my heart already anyway.

He's not a vending machine.

Nevertheless, it's a common practice. I've known Christians who pray for a good parking spot at the mall.

 

[Nakosis]

Prayer gives confidence to some. To motivate them to follow through to the goal.

Perhaps better to place faith in one's self without the prayer, but a person has got to do what they need to to accomplish the goal. If they need prayer to provide the confidence to go forth then so be it.

 

[waitasec]

Nevertheless, it's a common practice. I've known Christians who pray for a good parking spot at the mall.

my mom does that

 

[waitasec]

to answer the question is it wrong?
i wouldn't say wrong but i would say it's bizarre behavior.

 

[ChristineES]

Nevertheless, it's a common practice. I've known Christians who pray for a good parking spot at the mall.

That is kind of silly, but who am I to judge.
But I don't see why people can't pray for little things, when they spend most of their time praying for bigger things- like world peace, the the end of world suffering and hunger, victims of natural disasters and famine and when they give their time and money to such things. It's true that God is not a vending machine- but if a person with small children has to take the bus everywhere (I am not talking about myself) prays to God that he/she could get the means to get a car- not necessarily a big or fancy or new car, I don't see anything selfish about that. It is hard to lug little kids onto a bus and taxis are expensive (Gas is expensive, too, I know before you say anything). If a person is having trouble making ends meet, having trouble feeding his or her children, then I don't see how it would be selfish for that person to ask God to help them to find a job of some sort.
If someone is praying to God for a classy car to fall out of the sky, when that person already has a working car- that is different and can be selfish.