• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is Jesus a Mythical Character?

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
..., I believe that currently, especially with ongoing research into accuracy within transmission of the oral traditions, scholars (including atheists, Jews, agnostics, etc) are for most part accepting a good deal of the gospels as historical.
It would be interesting to see that clarified and substantiated: I do not believe that you could come close to accomplishing such a feat. As I've noted before, Josephus, Acts, and a general understanding of the Second Temple Period provide a reasonable basis for presuming an historical Jesus at the core of the Jesus lore, but this is a far cry from labeling "a good deal of the gospel as historical" - an assertion that strikes me as more than a little preposterous.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
I really meant "important" in the theological sense. I don't know of any reputable scholars who argue that it's a matter of historical fact that Jesus was the Son of God, stood as the atoning sacrifice for humanity's sins, and was resurrected to Heaven. Do you?

No, and nor do I. All the scholars who believe this argue that we can't either confirm or reject the possibility from a historical standpoint, any more than we can from a scientific. I would tend to agree with them partly, with certain caveats. I would suggest that certain aspects of the gospels (like the infancy narratives) have little to no chance of being historical, because of the treatment of Jesus by his family and home town within the gospels.

I don't think that most Christians' faith in Jesus is based merely on the fact that someone with a passing resemblance lived in Judea around the same time. Generally, I think that faith is based on the idea that Jesus is either God or the son of God. That's what I meant by "in all important respects"; the historicity of the man Jesus still doesn't necessarily support the theology of Christianity

On this we agree, and I have no problem with people denying that Jesus was God, or even denying that he claimed to be God. The problem I have is with people who read a few books like "The Jesus Mysteries" or "Templar Revelations" and all the sudden consider themselves experts ready to assert definitively that Jesus was no more than a Jewish version of some pagan "dying and resurrecting godman." This just isn't true.
It would be interesting to see that clarified and substantiated: I do not believe that you could come close to accomplishing such a feat. As I've noted before, Josephus, Acts, and a general understanding of the Second Temple Period provide a reasonable basis for presuming an historical Jesus at the core of the Jesus lore, but this is a far cry from labeling "a good deal of the gospel as historical" - an assertion that strikes me as more than a little preposterous.

The so-called "Quest for the Historical Jesus" has undergone a few changes since the beginning of this century, since Wrede first wrote his "Das Messiasgeheimnis in den Evangelien. Zugleich ein Beitrag zum Verständnis des Markusevangeliums." . The first important contribution since Wrede was probably Albert Schweitzers' "Von Reimarus zu Wrede: Eine Geschichte der Leben-jesu-forschung,/From Reimarus to Wrede: A History of the Research of the Life of Jesus" which changed the scholarly world by for the most part destroying the "liberal Jesus" of the previous century, and establishing Jesus as an apocalyptic prophet more than anything else.

More important still (and probably one of the most influencial persons in the history of Jesus research) was Rudolf Bultman, whose form-critical analysis of passages provided a method through which gospel passages could be analyzed for historicity. Unfortunately, as I stated above, he did not use a good model of oral transmission, and from his time even up to the present, you have massive works from various scholars comparing various pericopes and logia attempting both to discover whether they are historical, and which tradition is older. For example, Meier's three volume work goes into excruciating detail on most of the narratives and sayings in the gospels, comparing them and attempting to determine historicity and the older tradition.

It wasn't until recently that scholars began to take more seriously the type of orality behind the Jesus tradition. For example, Jesus likely said various sayings over and over and over again, and the mass of scholarship devoted to determining which version of a saying recorded in all three of the Synoptics is the older is fruitless. Potentially they all could be. Nor is it really possible to try to go through "layers" of Q in the depth that some scholars (for example, Crossan) do, when it is a hypothetical text which we now know (based on studies of the possibility for verbatim transmission of oral traditions) could have remained an oral text.

What I am trying to say is that in the years since Bultmann, the changes in our understanding of oral tradition have allowed for for more accuracy in the transmission of the tradition behind the gospels. This is important, because Bultmann and his followers assumed that after Jesus, followers continued to add sayings and narratives to the tradition freely and attribute them to Jesus. Hence his highly critical attitude toward the gospels.

However, if more recent and applicable research into both the nature of the early Christian communities with respect to there attitude and care of the tradition (for example Papias' statement that he was still receiving oral tradition from particular elders to whom it had been passed, even though at this point the gospels had been written) and the type of transmission itself (more controlled and more formal than previously thought) than it becomes easier to take more of the gospels as historical.

I should point out again that just because the gospels contain miracles in no way means we should reject them all together. Jesus likely did have a reputation as both an excorcist and a healer (and he was not the only historical figure to have such a reputation). In sum, when I say that recent researchers accept a greater part of the gospels as historical than before, it is because they are arguing from a starting point and methodology for determining historicity that differs from Bultmann and his followers.

This still does not mean, however, that anyone historian (even Christians) argue that from a historical standpoint we can say Jesus ACTUALLY performed miracles or was the son of God. Christian historians for the most part attempt to defend a historical Jesus who made such claims, and allow for the possibility that he the son of God, but they leave that up to faith.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
However, I believe that currently, especially with ongoing research into accuracy within transmission of the oral traditions, scholars (including atheists, Jews, agnostics, etc) are for most part accepting a good deal of the gospels as historical.

This is laughably absurd, the gospels are obviously works of fiction written to teach various thematic stories, not historical accounts of a couple of years of the life of a supposed Jesus. Much of it couldn't possibly have been witnessed by anyone, because the stories were virtually all written in the third person. For example, many of the statements of Jesus claim to have come from him while allegedly alone. If so, who heard him?
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
This is laughably absurd, the gospels are obviously works of fiction written to teach various thematic stories, not historical accounts of a couple of years of the life of a supposed Jesus. Much of it couldn't possibly have been witnessed by anyone, because the stories were virtually all written in the third person. For example, many of the statements of Jesus claim to have come from him while allegedly alone. If so, who heard him?

First, I think that it is a bit ricch to here anyone who relies on guys like Freke and Gandy for his "scholarship" on this subject to make any sort of claim on what REAL scholars believe in the field. And you have yet to cite a single example of a specialist who agrees that Jesus was a mythical person.

Second, much of the sayings and narratives in the gospels WERE witnessed. Certain stories about Jesus could (for example, his time in the desert) could have been related by him to others at a later date. Or they could have been made up. Historians sort through the gospels like any other ancient historical sources.

Also, I would again suggest that your lack of knowledge on ancient historical sources is a stumbling block in your understanding of the genre of the gospels. I would again suggest than rather than read books about Jesus by people who 1. have no training the field 2. misrepresent their sources 3. blatantly disregard dates 4. contain outright historical inaccuracies, you read the work of actual scholars, and then come to me with opinions on the gospels. If you can't cite a single work by an expert who says "Jesus never existed" than it appears fairly obvious you don't possess enough information to make a judgement on the historical nature of the gospels, because your only sources have been people who don't know what they are talking about.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
..., I believe that currently, especially with ongoing research into accuracy within transmission of the oral traditions, scholars (including atheists, Jews, agnostics, etc) are for most part accepting a good deal of the gospels as historical.
It would be interesting to see that clarified and substantiated: I do not believe that you could come close to accomplishing such a feat. As I've noted before, Josephus, Acts, and a general understanding of the Second Temple Period provide a reasonable basis for presuming an historical Jesus at the core of the Jesus lore, but this is a far cry from labeling "a good deal of the gospel as historical" - an assertion that strikes me as more than a little preposterous.
The so-called "Quest for the Historical Jesus" has undergone a few changes since the beginning of this century, since Wrede first wrote his "Das Messiasgeheimnis in den Evangelien. Zugleich ein Beitrag zum Verständnis des Markusevangeliums." . The first important contribution since Wrede was probably Albert Schweitzers' "Von Reimarus zu Wrede: Eine Geschichte der Leben-jesu-forschung,/From Reimarus to Wrede: A History of the Research of the Life of Jesus" which changed the scholarly world by for the most part destroying the "liberal Jesus" of the previous century, and establishing Jesus as an apocalyptic prophet more than anything else.

More important still (and probably one of the most influencial persons in the history of Jesus research) was Rudolf Bultman, whose form-critical analysis of passages provided a method through which gospel passages could be analyzed for historicity. Unfortunately, as I stated above, he did not use a good model of oral transmission, and from his time even up to the present, you have massive works from various scholars comparing various pericopes and logia attempting both to discover whether they are historical, and which tradition is older. For example, Meier's three volume work goes into excruciating detail on most of the narratives and sayings in the gospels, comparing them and attempting to determine historicity and the older tradition.

It wasn't until recently that scholars began to take more seriously the type of orality behind the Jesus tradition. For example, Jesus likely said various sayings over and over and over again, and the mass of scholarship devoted to determining which version of a saying recorded in all three of the Synoptics is the older is fruitless. Potentially they all could be. Nor is it really possible to try to go through "layers" of Q in the depth that some scholars (for example, Crossan) do, when it is a hypothetical text which we now know (based on studies of the possibility for verbatim transmission of oral traditions) could have remained an oral text.

What I am trying to say is that in the years since Bultmann, the changes in our understanding of oral tradition have allowed for for more accuracy in the transmission of the tradition behind the gospels. This is important, because Bultmann and his followers assumed that after Jesus, followers continued to add sayings and narratives to the tradition freely and attribute them to Jesus. Hence his highly critical attitude toward the gospels.

However, if more recent and applicable research into both the nature of the early Christian communities with respect to there attitude and care of the tradition (for example Papias' statement that he was still receiving oral tradition from particular elders to whom it had been passed, even though at this point the gospels had been written) and the type of transmission itself (more controlled and more formal than previously thought) than it becomes easier to take more of the gospels as historical.

I should point out again that just because the gospels contain miracles in no way means we should reject them all together. Jesus likely did have a reputation as both an excorcist and a healer (and he was not the only historical figure to have such a reputation). In sum, when I say that recent researchers accept a greater part of the gospels as historical than before, it is because they are arguing from a starting point and methodology for determining historicity that differs from Bultmann and his followers.

This still does not mean, however, that anyone historian (even Christians) argue that from a historical standpoint we can say Jesus ACTUALLY performed miracles or was the son of God. Christian historians for the most part attempt to defend a historical Jesus who made such claims, and allow for the possibility that he the son of God, but they leave that up to faith.
What part of that excessive and excessively pedantic reply do you believe substantiates your claim that "currently, especially with ongoing research into accuracy within transmission of the oral traditions, scholars (including atheists, Jews, agnostics, etc) are for most part accepting a good deal of the gospels as historical"? For example, what "good deal" of Matthew is "for the most part" accepted as historical by this consortium of "atheists, Jews, agnostics, etc"?
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
What part of that excessive and excessively pedantic reply do you believe substantiates your claim that "currently, especially with ongoing research into accuracy within transmission of the oral traditions, scholars (including atheists, Jews, agnostics, etc) are for most part accepting a good deal of the gospels as historical"? For example, what "good deal" of Matthew is "for the most part" accepted as historical by this consortium of "atheists, Jews, agnostics, etc"?

Yes, I too would like to read a little sampling of an event that really happened.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
What part of that excessive and excessively pedantic reply do you believe substantiates your claim that "currently, especially with ongoing research into accuracy within transmission of the oral traditions, scholars (including atheists, Jews, agnostics, etc) are for most part accepting a good deal of the gospels as historical"? For example, what "good deal" of Matthew is "for the most part" accepted as historical by this consortium of "atheists, Jews, agnostics, etc"?

I was attempting to explain the changes Jesus research has undergone since the more critical and earlier stages of historical Jesus research. Scholars differ on which parts of all gospels (although many tend to reject a good deal of John) they accept as historical, so to go through and list what every scholar today regards as historical in matthew (who have written on the subject) would be an incredibly involved task. However, I can cite numerous recent works on the historical Jesus by scholars of non-christian or very "liberal" christian backrounds you can check out for yourself. Below are a few, and I can provide more if you wish:

Betz, Otto. Was Wissen Wir von Jesus? (1965)

Borg, Marcus. Conflict, Holiness, and Politics in the Teachings of Jesus. (1984)
Borg, Marcus. Jesus in Contemporary Scholarship

Crossan, J. D. The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant (1991)

Ehrman, Bart. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (2001)

Horsley, Richard. "Oral Tradition in New Testament Studies" Oral Tradition (2003)

Vermes, Geza. Jesus the Jews: A Historian's Reading of the Gospels (1967)
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
I was attempting to explain the changes Jesus research has undergone since the more critical and earlier stages of historical Jesus research. Scholars differ on which parts of all gospels (although many tend to reject a good deal of John) they accept as historical, so to go through and list what every scholar today regards as historical in matthew (who have written on the subject) would be an incredibly involved task. However, I can cite numerous recent works on the historical Jesus by scholars of non-christian or very "liberal" christian backrounds you can check out for yourself. Below are a few, and I can provide more if you wish:

Betz, Otto. Was Wissen Wir von Jesus? (1965)

Borg, Marcus. Conflict, Holiness, and Politics in the Teachings of Jesus. (1984)
Borg, Marcus. Jesus in Contemporary Scholarship

Crossan, J. D. The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant (1991)

Ehrman, Bart. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (2001)

Horsley, Richard. "Oral Tradition in New Testament Studies" Oral Tradition (2003)

Vermes, Geza. Jesus the Jews: A Historian's Reading of the Gospels (1967)

This is a debate board, not a book club. Simply give an example of an event written up in Matthew that actually happened.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
This is a debate board, not a book club. Simply give an example of an event written up in Matthew that actually happened.

What's the point? Let's try that for a second.

There is a wide consensus that Jesus' saying "The last will be first and the first last" (Matt 19:30, Lk 13:30, Thom 4:2-3, Mk 10:31) is historical (i.e. it dates back to Jesus). Now I am going to assume that neither my saying "it is historical" nor my saying that a wide scholarly consensus agree, nor even citing numrous articles or books, will convince you. You want an argument from the ground up on why it should be considered historical. I have given in previous posts a brief outline (comparatively speaking) on why the gospels fall into the genre of ancient history, and on methadology used to determine historicity.
There are only two types of scholarly material written to determine historical parts of the gospels in the manner you are looking for. The first are article or books written for other scholars. These assume intimate familiarity with the topic, and so they have no need to build from the ground up. This would be of no use to you, as you lack such familiarity.

The second are massive works that do not assume familiarity. The problem with these is that they require an enormous amount of work, because they have to introduce the reader to the cultural and religious background, to types of literature, to oral tradition, to previous scholarship, and on, and on. That is what you are looking for, and it is the only thing that would provide you with the evidence you need. You can either read such a work, or you can continue to disbelieve because you don't want to do the requisite research by experts.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
First, I think that it is a bit ricch to here anyone who relies on guys like Freke and Gandy for his "scholarship" on this subject to make any sort of claim on what REAL scholars believe in the field. And you have yet to cite a single example of a specialist who agrees that Jesus was a mythical person.

Second, much of the sayings and narratives in the gospels WERE witnessed. Certain stories about Jesus could (for example, his time in the desert) could have been related by him to others at a later date. Or they could have been made up. Historians sort through the gospels like any other ancient historical sources.

Also, I would again suggest that your lack of knowledge on ancient historical sources is a stumbling block in your understanding of the genre of the gospels. I would again suggest than rather than read books about Jesus by people who 1. have no training the field 2. misrepresent their sources 3. blatantly disregard dates 4. contain outright historical inaccuracies, you read the work of actual scholars, and then come to me with opinions on the gospels. If you can't cite a single work by an expert who says "Jesus never existed" than it appears fairly obvious you don't possess enough information to make a judgement on the historical nature of the gospels, because your only sources have been people who don't know what they are talking about.

I see you are using your same old tired "my scholars are better than your scholars" argument, and giving ridiculouus counterpoints to my posts. The arguments against the existence of a supposed Jesus that remotely matches the bibilcal one are many, and for are very few.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
What's the point? Let's try that for a second.

There is a wide consensus that Jesus' saying "The last will be first and the first last" (Matt 19:30, Lk 13:30, Thom 4:2-3, Mk 10:31) is historical (i.e. it dates back to Jesus). Now I am going to assume that neither my saying "it is historical" nor my saying that a wide scholarly consensus agree, nor even citing numrous articles or books, will convince you. You want an argument from the ground up on why it should be considered historical. I have given in previous posts a brief outline (comparatively speaking) on why the gospels fall into the genre of ancient history, and on methadology used to determine historicity.
There are only two types of scholarly material written to determine historical parts of the gospels in the manner you are looking for. The first are article or books written for other scholars. These assume intimate familiarity with the topic, and so they have no need to build from the ground up. This would be of no use to you, as you lack such familiarity.

The second are massive works that do not assume familiarity. The problem with these is that they require an enormous amount of work, because they have to introduce the reader to the cultural and religious background, to types of literature, to oral tradition, to previous scholarship, and on, and on. That is what you are looking for, and it is the only thing that would provide you with the evidence you need. You can either read such a work, or you can continue to disbelieve because you don't want to do the requisite research by experts.

In other words, you don't have a clue as to what makes anything historical. Pointing to a pile of books tells me that you lack the ability to express in your own words what the explanation is for accepting a story as an actual event.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
In other words, you don't have a clue as to what makes anything historical. Pointing to a pile of books tells me that you lack the ability to express in your own words what the explanation is for accepting a story as an actual event.

No. What it tells you is that the amount of detail it would take to inform you on how scholars judge historicitity would take a book. However, for the sake of others, I will sketch out tomorrow a far more extensive argument for historicity within the gospels. I hope you can wait until then. But I really would recommend you read a book by someone who knows what they are talking about, and not that Jesus Mysteries crap.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
I was attempting to explain the changes Jesus research has undergone since the more critical and earlier stages of historical Jesus research. Scholars differ on which parts of all gospels (although many tend to reject a good deal of John) they accept as historical, so to go through and list what every scholar today regards as historical in matthew (who have written on the subject) would be an incredibly involved task. However, I can cite numerous recent works on the historical Jesus by scholars of non-christian or very "liberal" christian backrounds you can check out for yourself. Below are a few, and I can provide more if you wish:

Betz, Otto. Was Wissen Wir von Jesus? (1965)

Borg, Marcus. Conflict, Holiness, and Politics in the Teachings of Jesus. (1984)
Borg, Marcus. Jesus in Contemporary Scholarship

Crossan, J. D. The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant (1991)

Ehrman, Bart. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (2001)

Horsley, Richard. "Oral Tradition in New Testament Studies" Oral Tradition (2003)

Vermes, Geza. Jesus the Jews: A Historian's Reading of the Gospels (1967)

Yeah, this describes you right here.

YouTube - Debunking Christian Apologetics: "Scholars say..."

Is there any external substantiated written history on the man Jesus or is it biblical with NT Scholar interpretation?
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member

Not exactly. For one thing, I am not a Christian apologist. I do not believe the Jesus of the Gospels (i.e. Son of god and all that) is historical. I am agnostic. I acknowledge the possibility of these things, in that they remain outside the realm of proof. As a historian, however, I can't say that we can historically say Jesus actually performed miracles or was the son of god.

Second, I am training to be a scholar in the field. I do not call myself an expert, because I have not finished my dissertation, and although it is all I have left to do, there is always the chance that I will abandon it, or it will not be accepted, or some such thing.

Finally, this guy seems to assert that all the scholars who defend the historical Jesus are christian. They aren't. I gave you a list of people who don't believe Jesus was the son of God, and some of them don't believe in god at all.

Is there any external substantiated written history on the man Jesus or is it biblical with NT Scholar interpretation?

I will attempt to post a substantial introductory to the historical Jesus, and why scholars of all types believe he existed. In the meantime, I will freely admit that all scholars rely almost entirely on the NT for information about Jesus. However, I submit that they understand the history and cultures behind the text better than you do.

Do you believe Socrates is historical? By the standard of evidence you seem to require, we can't consider him anymore than a mythical "philosopher-type" invoked as a mythic character to further particular points.

As I said, I will post a more detailed account of the basis for the historical Jesus tomorrow. But I doubt that those convinced by books like "The Jesus Mysterious" will likely remained unconvinced. They lack both a familiarity with primary sources of ancient times, and have not read sufficient secondary scholarship. Nonetheless, I will give it a try. Once again, however, I recommend you read books on the historical Jesus (even or especially those by non-christians) by experts in the field, rather than laypersons who write sensational junk written for people without the inclination for serious research.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
No. What it tells you is that the amount of detail it would take to inform you on how scholars judge historicitity would take a book. However, for the sake of others, I will sketch out tomorrow a far more extensive argument for historicity within the gospels. I hope you can wait until then. But I really would recommend you read a book by someone who knows what they are talking about, and not that Jesus Mysteries crap.

Now you're sidestepping. Just give one example of an event taken from Matthew that you know is historical and explain what makes you believe that that particular event actually happened. Pick an easy one.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Not exactly. For one thing, I am not a Christian apologist. I do not believe the Jesus of the Gospels (i.e. Son of god and all that) is historical. I am agnostic. I acknowledge the possibility of these things, in that they remain outside the realm of proof. As a historian, however, I can't say that we can historically say Jesus actually performed miracles or was the son of god.

That video had you pegged. Your methods are precisely that of the Christian apologist regardless of your claim not to be one. Simply explain in your own words why you believe Jesus and many events described in the gospels are historical. If you can't explain with your own words then it's likely that you don't understand why you believe. No one is taking you seriously because you're constantly dodging and weaving. So please, quit with the dancing and begin explaining.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
What follows may well be an exercise in futility. Even lengthy post, it is impossible to address all the questions concerning the historicity of the gospels to those unfamiliar with scholarship in the area. I am being asked to provide in a post (or a few posts) in a forum what most scholars do in large books, or even multivolume books. Nevertheless, I will give it the ol’ college try.

The most basic question behind whether or not the gospels, or anything in them, can be regarded as historical is one of genre. If the gospels are merely myths, than we can safely regard virtually everything in them as unhistorical. The same holds true if they are plays, or ancient novels, etc. However, if the gospels were written with the intent to record factual information (in other words, an attempt at ancient history or biography) then a more serious consideration of their content is required.

Those (like Freke and Gandy) who argue that the gospels are completely unhistorical (which is to be distinguished from containing unhistorical information along with historical data) call them myths. They place them in this particular genre, and say that it is therefore safe to regard their contents as nothing more than similar religious myths of Hercules or Zeus. For this reason, it appears the best way to start an investigation into the genre of the gospels would be to start with what ancient myths looked like. If the gospels do resemble these myths, then it would be safe to assume that they are unhistorical.

I’ll start with what are probably the greatest epic myths ever recorded: the Iliad and the Odyssey. Together, these two works form the closest thing the Greeks ever had to a bible. Both of these works were attributed to Homer, but by the fifth century the some Greeks doubted whether he ever lived. Modern scholars are divided on the issue, but there is probably a consensus that both of the works were composed by a single author. What is far less likely and more contested is whether they were composed by a single author. In any case, these two works were not composed from a single myth, but rather are an amalgamation of oral traditions weaved together, occasionally haphazardly. Within them are references to many separate myths, some of which we have more complete versions of, some of which we do not.

The important thing to note for us is how these events are described. Let’s take the Iliad. Although it was composed likely sometime around the seventh or eighth century, the events within it belong to a time long past. The Trojan War it describes took place during a period when “men were men” (or even demigods). It was a golden age, when the greatest heroes lived. In other words, even though both poems represent the earliest classical literature we possess, the events within them are still supposed to have taken place hundreds of years earlier.

Interestingly enough, however, there is still a nugget of historical information, even within this clearly mythic story handed down over hundreds of years, with little attention paid to accuracy in transmission (in fact, innovation and variety were important aspects of oral mythic tradition for the Greeks). Scholars at one time doubted whether or not Troy ever existed, and then we found it. So despite the fact that the genre here is clearly myth, the possibility for historicity remains.

But so what? For the most part both the Iliad and the Odyssey can be regarded as mythic and therefore unhistorical. But why? It is important to note that this is not because they contain fantastical information. In order to further demonstrate the difference between myth and history has genres, let’s examine another myth before moving on the genre of ancient history: Euripides’ Medea.

The Medea was a play. Plays in ancient Greece developed from more simple processions and public celebrations, in which epic or mythic lyrics were recited. Eventually, simple recitations developed into differentiation of parts, and from there plays. Plays like the Medea continued to contain choruses and lyrics, and were written in meter. All plays worked with myth. There are references in the Medea to events that are also referenced in the Homer’s epics. What most distinguishes mythic cycles from the historical genre is NOT the presence of fantastical events, but a lack of concern over “getting the story right.”

Back to the Medea of Euripides. When the audience members first saw the play, they had a vague idea what was going to happen, because they already would have been familiar with the mythic cycle of the Medea. Playwrights had a store of traditions from which to draw from, and were allowed to freely innovate from these traditions. To make this more concrete, every member of the audience would have known that there was little chance that Medea’s children would come out alive. Just how they would die was a question. In the most common version, it was the Corinthian’s who killed the children for revenge. In Euripides’ play (which some scholars argue was his innovation) it was Medea herself who murdered her children in order to get back at Jason. The important thing is that within mythic tradition variety is an essential element. It was not that certain details might be different, but central aspects of the history could and would change. A successful retelling of myth was not an “accurate” one, as no such thing was possible, but an entertaining one, and one that corresponded to the expectations of whatever genre within mythic genre (tragedy, lyric, comedy, etc) the author was writing in. In addition (and this is very important), the myths always took place in ancient times. Historical cities or events might be contained within them, but they are always set in a time so long ago that any details would have long been forgotten particularly since the mode of transmission not only allowed for but required innovation.

That’s myth. So what about ancient history? It is important to understand, as I have tried to point out, that ancient history did not conform to modern historical standards. It may seem ridiculous to people today to put the gospels in any historical genre, given their content, but (as I have said) this is generally because people are holding the gospels to standards of history foreign in ancient times.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Food for thought[/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In His Own Words[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Caesar was an eyewitness to many of the events he describes in his commentaries. He wrote not for posterity but to have an immediate impact on the power players in Rome as he schemed to advance his own career. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The elapsed time between the wars and Caesar's own writing was a matter of months or at most a few years.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In contrast, the elapsed time between the gospel reports and the supposed events that they describe is at least 40 years for 'Mark' and 60-70 years for the other three Gospels. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And just who was witness to that fabulous nativity, 30-odd years before the grande finale? [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]At the most generous understanding, 'Luke' and 'Matthew' were recording hearsay testimony a century after angels, shepherds and wise men went calling.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The unembellished truth is that the gospel accounts were written by eyewitnesses to nothing but their own skills of fabrication. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For good reason, based on spatial and temporal proximity alone, historians give more credence to Caesar's commentaries than to the gospels, no matter how prolifically they were copied"[/FONT]

[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Contemporary Witnesses to Caesar[/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cicero[/FONT]

cicero.gif

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Orations and Letters provide eyewitness evidence of Caesar[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Marcus Tullius Cicero[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] (106-43 BC) was almost an exact contemporary of Julius Caesar. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In Caesar's struggle with Pompey, Cicero, governor of Cilicia, sided with Pompey but was subsequently pardoned by Caesar.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In March of 44 BC Cicero was a witness to Caesar's murder, though he was not a part of the conspiracy. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Following the assassination, Cicero made a series of speeches known as the "Philippics" which called on the Senate to support Octavian against Mark Antony. Cicero's "Second Phillipics" was an eulogy of Caesar's conquest of Gaul.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Unfortunately for Cicero Octavian reached a temporary rapprochement with Antony, who then ordered Cicero's murder.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Among some 900 preserved letters to and from Cicero are correspondence both about and with Caesar.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"... if Caesar does lose his head all the same, Pompey feels only the deepest contempt for him, trusting in his own and the state's troops..."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cicero to Atticus, 7.8, 50BC.[/FONT]





[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sallust[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Caius Sallust (86-34 BC) tribune, provincial governor and supporter of Caesar. His testimony is in a history "Bellum Catalinae".[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Nepos[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cornelius Nepos (c100-24): "Life of Atticus".[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Catullus[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Gaius Valerius Catullus (c84-54 BC): "Carmina".[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Asinius Pollio[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Gaius Asinius Pollio (76 BC-4 AD) was an ally of Caesar and founder of the first public library in Rome. He was a source used by Plutarch.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Virgil[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Virgil (70BC-17AD): "Aeneid".[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ovid[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ovidius Naso (43BC-17AD): "Metamorphoses".[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Near Contemporary Witnesses[/FONT]

friend.gif



[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Paterculus[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Velleius Paterculus (c19 BC-32 AD): "Historiae Romanae". [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lucan[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lucan (Marcus Annaeus Lucanus, 39-65 AD) followed the example of his grandfather, Seneca the Elder – a young contemporary of Caesar – who in later life wrote a history of Rome. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lucan wrote his own Pharsalia approximately a century after the civil war it chronicles, using Seneca's work as an eye-witness source.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Plutarch[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Plutarch of Chaeronea (45-120 AD) was a Greek moralist, historian and biographer (and priest of Delphi). He wrote his Parallel Lives (matching Greek with Roman lives) during the reigns of Trajan and Hadrian. He describes in detail the life and assassination of Julius Caesar (as well as Marcus Brutus and Mark Antony). [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Appian [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Appian of Alexandria (c.95-165 AD): Civil Wars. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Suetonius[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The most famous biographer of Caesar, Tranquillus Suetonius, wrote his Lives of the Twelve Caesars during the reign of emperor Hadrian (117-138). [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Suetonius was in charge of the imperial archives and in this capacity, had access to some of the best possible information[/FONT]


"

"
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Who would have noted anything "Jesus of Nazareth" said before he emerged as a bona fide spiritual leader? Yet Luke (2.48,49) quotes the godman at the age of 12 in the "temple incident". [/FONT]


"Matthew 3 reports dialogue between the godman and John the Baptist (let alone a voice from heaven!) in the wilderness of Judaea. Only when the Baptist gets imprisoned does JC choose his disciples so they wouldn't have been present either. So where does this little story originate, other than in the fertile mind of the gospel writer?"


Did Julius Caesar Exist? – Yes But No evidence of Jesus Christ
 
Last edited:

Oberon

Well-Known Member
So what were the standards? The best place to start when dealing with ancient history is probably Herodotus, because it was largely in response to his work that the word “history” mean what his does. In the “prologue” to his work “The Histories” Herodotus states: Herodotou Halikarnesseos histories apodexis hede/ this [is] the publication/setting down of the result of the inquiries of Herodotus of Halicarnassus. The word “history,” as used by Herodotus, means merely “inquiry” or “research.” It was not until after his work, and largely because of it, that the word came to mean history, i.e. a work aiming at setting down accurately something that happened in the past. As a historian, Herodotus doesn’t rate very highly. Here is a short list of criticisms by modern historians:

“One reason for the embarrassment is that Herodotus' figures are badly wrong in the case of the Black Sea, where Herodotus' error on the length and breadth is one hundred percent and forty percent respectively, while his error on the more familiar Hellespont drops to one in six for both length and breadth, and that on the width of the Propontis to only one in seven” (Armayor 47).

Much more embarrassing is the great Scythian bronze of king Ariantas that Herodotus claims to have seen for himself. In view of his claim, we can only try to decipher what he saw in the light of metrology. According to standard metrology, that of Hultsch for example, Herodotus' amphoreus is a liquid measure equal to the Attic metretes and I.5 Roman amphorae or about 39.4 liters, or some 10.4 gallons. According to standard metrology, therefore, king Ariantas' 6oo-amphoreis bronze must have held upwards of 6,244 gallons, like Croesus' 6oo-amphoreis silver bowl at Delphi (i.5i). Herodotus does not mention Croesus' dedication in this passage. Jacoby argues that Herodotus must have gone to Scythia before he went to Delphi or else he would have, but in that case we are merely left to wonder why
he did not mention the Scythian vessel when he came to tell about that of Delphi. But it seems difficult to believe a 6,244-gallon vessel in either place. (Armayor 51).

In the majority of these cases Herodotus casts a skeptical eye on the archaic legacy, leading some scholars to label him a 'Father of Empiricism,' but this formulation fails to account for other passages in which mythic and speculative thinking still predominate; indeed, the contradictions between the two approaches have led Lionel Pearson and others to question whether any coherent scheme of thought underlies Herodotean geography at all (Romm 98-99)

“Der historische Wert der herodoteischen Überlieferung war damit erschöpft. Die Gründungssage selbst ist geschichtlich wertlos” (Kleinknecht 136).

“[The first account in Herodotus is] rationalism, pushed to its absurd extreme. Herodotus here parodies not just myth but rationalism itself. He makes the very plausibility of the demythologized tales suspect, particularly through unspoken or barely hinted comparison with the poetic originals… He joins together totally different and timeless myths in a logical and orderly chronological sequence of cause and effect never suggested by the originals (Flory 25).

“Herodotus does not ever state at the beginning of his book or anywhere else that he will tell only the truth about the past, for the father of history does not always accept the superiority of truth to fiction. Herodotus often tells lengthy stories he admits are false, disproves plausible stories, or accepts preposterous ones without proof” (Flory 50)

“Professor Marg, in the introduction to his collection of articles on Herodotus, expresses a thought which must have occurred to many students of this author: "Wir sagten, Herodot gehort zu den schwersten Autoren, trotz oder gerade wegen seiner scheinbaren Leichtigkeit. Herodot ist voll von Gegensatzen" One such Gegensatz which has long puzzled me is the contrast between Herodotus the keen, shrewd, painstaking researcher and critic, and Herodotus careless and casual to the point of blamable negligence” (Grant 283)

That should suffice. Basically, even though Herodotus is attempting to record the past, he often does it very poorly. Certainly, there are numerous mythic elements in his work.

But were all ancient historians so bad? Not exactly. After Herodotus, numerous historians expressed that the point behind history is accuracy in recording the past. Cicero, for example, who gave Herodotus his title “Father of History,” states in De Legibus that “Quippe cum in illa [historia] omnia veritatem…referantur” (1.5). Polybius, in his Histories, quotes Timaios’ views on history: “hoti Timaios phesi megiston hamartema peri ten historian einai to pseudos; dio kai parainei toutois, ous an exelegxe dipseusmenous en tois suggrammasin, heteron ti zetein onoma tois bubliois, panta mallon e lakein historian.” (12.11). Lucian states that compared to the mousikos, “he de ouk an ti pseudos empeson [e historia] oud’ akariaion anaschoito, ou mallon e ten aruerian iatron paides phasi ten tracheian paradexasthai an tie s auten katpothen. (How to Write History 7).

Clearly even ancient historians were committed in some way to accuracy. However, accuracy and historical standards then were not as now. These same historians who state above that the goal behind history is truth and accuracy, feel free to include ethnic biases, third or fourth hand events, talk about the gods, talk about miraculous events, etc. They did not have the same worldview concerning magic and miracles as we do, nor did they have access to a wealth of written data, but rather relied mainly on oral traditions, eyewitness accounts, even rumor.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
So where do the gospels fit into all of this? What I have been trying to establish is that just because an ancient work includes theology or miraculous stories does not mean it should be excluded from the genre of ancient history. Ancient histories contained these things. Nor should the fact that there are inaccuracies (such as the census in Luke’s birth narrative) exclude it, as ancient historians often relied on rumor and often made mistakes.

There are internal clues that allow us to place the gospels as types of ancient biographies. In other words, certain aspects of the gospels make it evident that the goal behind them was not just to tell stories of another deity, as in various pagan myths, but to set down an accurate recording of past events. The first of the is the reference to the time the events took place. Whereas myths take place in times long past, centuries before the time of their telling, the events in the gospels are said to have taken place a few generations prior to their composition. We know this because of a second clue within the gospels: allusion and reference to persons verified as historical by way of other sources. For example, the gospels discuss John the Baptist, who is recorded in Josephus, Herod, of whom there is abundant historical evidence, Pontius Pilate, Caesar, etc. Even the high priest Caiaphas, who tries Jesus, is verified as historical by other sources. These references not only place the events in the gospels far closer to the time of their composition than in myth, they also provide numerous historical details which can be confirmed from other sources, which myth do not. The placing of the gospels in a specific time, relatively close to the time of their composition, in addition to the inclusion of references known to be historical, make it clear that the gospels are not simply myth. The fact that they contain miracles and such does not make them myth, as ancient histories contained such things.

However, even if the gospels are a form of ancient history, and not simply myth, this does not make them good history, even by ancient standards. So how do scholars sort the good from the bad? In short, the same way they do with all ancient history: they establish various methodological tools and criteria.

For example, as starting criterion every historian takes that miraculous events, by their very nature, are unhistorical. They may have happened. We can’t rule them out, in the same way we can’t rule out that Hercules really did kill the Geryon, as the Roman historian Livy states. However, we also can’t call them historical.

Another common criterion is that of embarrassment. Many things in the gospels actually do not make Jesus look that good, and yet are recorded. For example, Jesus’ baptism by John make John look superior to Jesus, or John’s disciples asking if Jesus was the one foretold, when John was supposed to know that Jesus was the messiah. The gospel authors may try to explain these events, but they are nonetheless recorded, indicating once again the authors are writing a form of ancient history. Scholars look at those aspects of the gospels which are embarrassing to Christians, and tend to judge them as having a greater chance of actually having happened, because the gospel authors wouldn’t make up stories to make Jesus look bad, nor would others add to the Jesus tradition narratives or sayings or stories which were embarrassing.

A third fairly common criterion of historicity is the recording of an event of saying multiple independent sources. Matthew and Luke appear have both used Mark, and to have drawn from a source we call Q, in addition to having access to other parts of the Jesus tradition. Many scholars argue that the extra-canonical gospel of Thomas is also independent from the Synoptics. So when a saying is found in Thomas, Q, and Mark, it is more likely to be historical, as it is confirmed by multiple sources.

The most important tool for weighing the historicity of the gospels, however, comes from understanding the method of transmission. None of the gospels were written while Jesus was alive. It is also unlikely (although some have argued otherwise) that they were written by eyewitnesses to the events. Rather, they are recordings of an oral tradition. As I have already written on this aspect, I will close here.

I will, however, state once more that this is a VERY brief sketch of the complex technical arguments scholars have made not only for putting the gospels in a historical genre of sorts, but also on how they judge historicity of various logia, narrative, pericope, etc. My point has mainly been to show that the gospels DO NOT resemble myth, and that the inclusion of miracles and historical inaccuracies does not exclude them from forms of ancient history. I will say once more that those who actually want to know why every scholar in this field from all types of backgrounds believes that Jesus was a historical person should consult a book, which is far more comprehensive than any post could be. And there are plenty of books by skeptical non-Christian scholars which I have already named.
 
Top