Is Jesus God?

[Trailblazer]

John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh.
Is Jesus God? Why should I believe that Jesus is God? | GotQuestions.org

John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Those verses are about God, not about Jesus. All things were made through God since God created the heavens and the earth.

The Word refers to the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word was the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When God sent Jesus, God was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You can't get it any plainer than that. God was manifest in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. If God had been incarnated in the flesh then God would have become flesh and we would be able to see God; but Jesus said no man has ever seen God.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13
Is Jesus God? Why should I believe that Jesus is God? | GotQuestions.org

So this is proof that Jesus is God, because Jesus does not correct Thomas?

 

[Trailblazer]

The most important reason that Jesus must be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.
Is Jesus God? Why should I believe that Jesus is God? | GotQuestions.org

So we finally get to the bottom line. "Jesus must be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world." Christians had to make Jesus into God even though Jesus never claimed to be God!

Obviously, this is all a Christian doctrine, it is nothing that Jesus ever claimed to be and it is not supported by any Bible verses, unless one distorts the meanings of the verses attributing meanings that are simply not there.

Can't anyone see that these Christians who decided that Jesus is God had an agenda?
The sad thing is that they took all the other unsuspecting Christians down with them.

 

[Trailblazer]

Analyzing Christian scriptures is useless because they are merely wishful projections of the Christian authors.
So why continue wasting time in that way?

Only because about a third of the world population are Christians.
But it is a waste of time trying to show that Jesus is not God to people who believe that.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Matthew 25:31-46;
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 8:34-38;
34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

1 Corinthians 15:3-7;
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

Matthew 28:9;
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Luke 24:36-43;
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

John 20:26-30, 21:1-14;
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
21 After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself.

2 There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples.
3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.
4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.
8 And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.
9 As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread.
10 Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.
11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.
14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.

Acts 1:3-6
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

I believe that there are many verses in John that point to the idea that the Lord Jesus Christ is God - yet He is not God the Father.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that there are many verses in John that point to the idea that the Lord Jesus Christ is God - yet He is not God the Father.

So now you are saying there are two Gods? That does agree with what is in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Deuteronomy 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him.

 

[CG Didymus]

So now you are saying there are two Gods? That does agree with what is in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Deuteronomy 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him.

Other than Judaism, most other people had all kinds of God/men.

Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs were the ancient kings of Egypt. Pharaohs were considered one of the more important of all the Egyptian gods. While a pharaoh was ruling, he took on the "incarnation" of the god Horus and the son of Re. Once the pharaoh died, he was identified with the god Osiris, the god of the underworld.​

So, because everybody else in the world had no problem with a man being a God, I think the NT writers made him close enough to be God that the early Christians made him God. Then they invented the trinity to explain how there could be one God but three different entities that made up their God.

Now the other thing is that even for Baha'is Jesus and all the other manifestations were special creations. But, they probably were spirit weren't they? Then, at some point in time that spirit got put into a body. So it's still a very, very close to being God spirit that incarnated into a body. So how big and how grand are spirits of Jesus and Baha'u'llah and the others? I don't imagine their spirits are confined to a spirit body are they? And if so, how do you confine spirit? Yet, however big and grand their spirits are, it did get crammed into a human body. And again, not that I believed any of it, but it's just a possibility... That a very, very holy and God-like spirit got incarnated into a human body. Compared to us and our spirits, they would essentially be God... or God in the flesh... and God made manifest or even... God incarnated... almost.

I do not know if Jesus really healed the sick or raised the dead. Probably He did. Do you know that Baha’u’llah also healed the sick or raised the dead? These are moracles His close followers knew about but Baha’u’llah did not want them to be known becaue He ddod not want people to believe in Him for His miracles: Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

So with this one, if Baha'u'llah could and did do supernatural and miraculous things, then what? Did Jesus really restore people's sight? And walk on water? Make leprosy vanish? Then what about bringing a dead person back to life? Is there a limit to what God can do through his manifestations? You had dead tissue with the leper? You had something wrong with the connection between an eyeball and the brain? Why not get the brain and heart and blood flowing again for a that's been dead a few days? But if we're going to believe God can do those miracles, then what about Jesus? Did God bring him back to life or was that just a made up, symbolic story? Of course, I'm still leaning toward all of it being made up fiction, but written and told to people as if true.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

So now you are saying there are two Gods? That does agree with what is in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Deuteronomy 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him.

I believe that there are gods many and lords many - and that the Lord Jesus Christ is that Being who created the Earth and offers salivation to Man. The God of Israel.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that there are gods many and lords many - and that the Lord Jesus Christ is that Being who created the Earth and offers salivation to Man. The God of Israel.

I believe that the one true God is the God that created the universe and He has no equal.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I believe that when God sent Jesus from heaven, God was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I believe that the one true God is the God that created the universe and He has no equal.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I believe that when God sent Jesus from heaven, God was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I agree with some of this - I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ created the Earth and that He was a manifestation of God in the flesh - but not in a literal sense - but rather in the sense of Law.

He was legally God - since it was He who covenanted with Man and represented the interests of both God and the Father and all of humanity - making Him God in the eyes of Law and as well Man's perfect Advocate and Judge.

I believe that God the Father and the God the Son are two separate and distinct individuals - perfectly united in purpose and will due to their divine nature.

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree with some of this - I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ created the Earth and that He was a manifestation of God in the flesh - but not in a literal sense - but rather in the sense of Law.

He was legally God - since it was He who covenanted with Man and represented the interests of both God and the Father and all of humanity - making Him God in the eyes of Law and as well Man's perfect Advocate and Judge.

If How could a man who was not literally God create the Earth? Only an all-powerful and all-knowing God can create the Earth.

I believe that God the Father and the God the Son are two separate and distinct individuals - perfectly united in purpose and will due to their divine nature.

I believe that God is the Father and Jesus is the Son of God. They are separate individuals. Why do you want to make Jesus into God the Son? Only the Father is God. The Son is the Son of God, not God.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

If How could a man who was not literally God create the Earth? Only an all-powerful and all-knowing God can create the Earth.

I realize that I made an error - I apologize.

I personally tend to refer to God the Father as "God" and the Lord Jesus Christ as "Lord" so as not confuse who they are - but it can be confusing if I don't relate that to people.

So - my comment should have been -

"I agree with some of this - I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ created the Earth and that He was a manifestation of God the Father in the flesh - but not in a literal sense - but rather in the sense of Law."

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is literally the God of Israel - the great I AM - YVHV - who created the Earth and covenanted with Man.

However - I believe that He did all of this under the direction of God the Father - who is the Being I worship in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe that God is the Father and Jesus is the Son of God. They are separate individuals.

Great. I agree.

Why do you want to make Jesus into God the Son?

I don't believe that my desire - what I want - has anything to do with it.

That is how I interpret the text and the conclusion I have come to after years of searching, pondering and praying.

Only the Father is God. The Son is the Son of God, not God.

If the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God - which I believe He is - then He is destined be like His Father.

Just like my son is destined to be like me and a tiger cub will eventually grow to be a full-grown tiger.

An analogy I have developed to try and explain the relationship between the Father and the Son is like an architect and a foreman.

The architect envisions and creates the plans - the very essence - of the building and he relates all the these things to the foreman who - through delegation - actively completes the project.

The building in this sense could be the Earth or in a much broader sense the entire Redemption and Salvation of Mankind.

God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ are perfected Beings and they work in unison - yet the Son is the foreman - the active particle - directing the affairs of the Father - because it is necessary for the great plan of God to move forth.

I believe that God the Father is the father of the spirits of Man - including the Lord Jesus Christ - and the designed of all things - including the Plan of Happiness - yet it was necessary for an Advocate between God and Man to be selected to complete the great plan of God for His children.

Therefore - the Lord Jesus Christ took it upon Himself to be placed in the position as both God and Man - a position where He could properly dispense Justice and offer Mercy - according to Law.

Under the direction of His Father - and our Father - He created the Earth and our first parents - covenanted with them - made promises - spoke to prophets to fulfill those promises - and every other action that God the Father would have needed to do in order to enact His plan.

This was necessary because the Lord Jesus Christ needed to be an infinite sacrifice - that of God - in order to redeem Man.

He also needed to be as Man - to know mortality and its pains - in order to succor Mankind and to be that perfect Judge.

He needed to die in order to save us from death.

As the great Sacrifice - the Lord Jesus Christ took on the roles of both the Father and the Son - the Father because He is the expressed will of God and the Son because of His flesh - with the capacity to suffer and die.

Only through this amalgamation of divinity and mortality could God the Father's great Plan be completed and forgiveness be extended to Mankind.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If you can find a writing of Shoghi's that states that Bahaism supports Pantheism then I would be surprised. AS far as I know, Bahais do not believe that they are a small portion of God.
@loverofhumanity or @adrian009 might correct me on that.

That Bahai chairman was very outspoken, as I remember. He discharged a LSA member (Mr DR) for being in a Gay relationship. But he did get some Bahai policies wrong, as I remember. He instructed an elderly man that I knew to install security lighting on the front of his home, the job was done very well and he paid for it, but at a Bahai event which I took my wife to he criticised my acquaintance loudly, telling us all that such a man should not be working on such installations at his age and that he must be a failure to not be able to afford to retire. Ha ha! Bahauallah disagreed with retirement as I remember.... I wish I'd known that at the time.



Yes, Pantheism is about an involved God.
Deism is not. Nature is probably the closest representative of God AFAICS.....

Hi badger.

No we don’t espouse pantheism as God is independent of his creation not a part of it.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 290-296

Also the reason the term ‘Local Spiritual Assembly or LSA’ is used is because they are not yet mature enough to be called Local Houses of Justice. We have a long way to go and lots to learn and many more mistakes and errors will be made before they fully mature.

Baha’u’llah, in the Most Holy Book states that 70 is old age and exempts believers from 70 from obligatory prayer and fasting so I would consider a Bahá’í would be free to retire then also.

 

[Trailblazer]

I realize that I made an error - I apologize.

I personally tend to refer to God the Father as "God" and the Lord Jesus Christ as "Lord" so as not confuse who they are - but it can be confusing if I don't relate that to people.

So - my comment should have been -

"I agree with some of this - I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ created the Earth and that He was a manifestation of God the Father in the flesh - but not in a literal sense - but rather in the sense of Law."

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is literally the God of Israel - the great I AM - YVHV - who created the Earth and covenanted with Man.

However - I believe that He did all of this under the direction of God the Father - who is the Being I worship in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So if you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is literally the God of Israel - the great I AM - YVHV - who created the Earth and covenanted with Man, and you believe in God the Father - who is the Being you worship in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that means you believe that there are two Gods. However, the Bible says that there is only one God, and the New Testament differentiates Jesus Christ from God.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Deuteronomy 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him.

Trailblazer said: Why do you want to make Jesus into God the Son?

I don't believe that my desire - what I want - has anything to do with it.

That is how I interpret the text and the conclusion I have come to after years of searching, pondering and praying.

But nowhere in the text does it say that Jesus is God the Son. It says that Jesus is the Son of God, which means that there is a Father and a Son. God is the Father and Jesus is the Son.

If the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God - which I believe He is - then He is destined be like His Father.

Just like my son is destined to be like me and a tiger cub will eventually grow to be a full-grown tiger.

That is true, but you will never be exactly like your father and the tiger cub will never be exactly like its father. You are separate from your father, not identical to him.

Jesus was the Son of God, but the Son is not identical to the Father, even though the Father is in the Son.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21), meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that Jesus and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings are identical with the Will of God Himself. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one and the same. Jesus also shares the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one and the same.

An analogy I have developed to try and explain the relationship between the Father and the Son is like an architect and a foreman.

The architect envisions and creates the plans - the very essence - of the building and he relates all the these things to the foreman who - through delegation - actively completes the project.

The building in this sense could be the Earth or in a much broader sense the entire Redemption and Salvation of Mankind.

God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ are perfected Beings and they work in unison - yet the Son is the foreman - the active particle - directing the affairs of the Father - because it is necessary for the great plan of God to move forth.

I can see the Father God as the architect and Jesus as a foreman who came to do what God envisioned in the plans but you have made the Son greater than the Father. Why would the Son be delegating and directing the affairs of the Father?

I believe that God the Father is the father of the spirits of Man - including the Lord Jesus Christ - and the designed of all things - including the Plan of Happiness - yet it was necessary for an Advocate between God and Man to be selected to complete the great plan of God for His children.

Therefore - the Lord Jesus Christ took it upon Himself to be placed in the position as both God and Man - a position where He could properly dispense Justice and offer Mercy - according to Law.

I believe that Jesus was an Advocate and a mediator between God and Man but I do not believe that Jesus was both God and man because that is logically impossible. I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God, as the Bible says. The verse below says that God was manifest in the flesh; it does not say that God became flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God who had a twofold nature, so He was kind of like a hybrid, a God-man. God conferred upon Jesus a spiritual nature born of the substance of God Himself, but Jesus was not God because no man can be God. Only God is God, one and alone.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

 

[TiggerII]

1 Tim. 3:16
Although the KJV translates 1 Tim. 3:16 with “God”, nearly all other translations today use a word which refers, not to God, but to Jesus: “he” (NIV; RSV; NRSV; JB; NJB; REB; NAB [‘70]; AT; GNB; CBW; and Beck’s translation), “he who” (ASV; NASB; NEB; MLB; BBE; Phillips; and Moffatt), “who,” or “which.” Even the equally old Douay version has “which was manifested in the flesh.” All the very best modern NT texts by trinitarian scholars (including Westcott and Hort, Nestle, and the text by the United Bible Societies) have the NT Greek word ὃς (“who”) here instead of θεὸς (“God”). Why do the very best trinitarian scholars support this NON-trinitarian translation of 1 Tim. 3:16?

Noted Bible scholar Dr. Frederick C. Grant writes:

“A capital example [of NT manuscript changes] is found in 1 Timothy 3:16, where ‘OS’ (OC or ὃς, ‘who’) was later taken for theta sigma with a bar above, which stood for theos (θεὸς, ‘god’). Since the new reading suited …. the orthodox doctrine of the church [trinitarian, at this later date], it got into many of the later manuscripts ….” – p. 656, Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3, 1957 ed. (This same statement by Dr. Grant was still to be found in the latest Encyclopedia Americana that I examined – the 1990 ed., pp. 696-698, vol. 3.)

A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament by the United Bible Societies (1971 ed.) tells why the trinitarian UBS Committee chose ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] as the original reading in their NT text for this verse:

“it is supported by the earliest and best uncials.” And, “Thus, no uncial (in the first hand [by the ORIGINAL writer]) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports θεὸς [“God”]; all ancient versions presuppose ὃς [or OC, “who” - masc.] or ὅ [“which” - neut.]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century [ca. 370 A.D.] testifies to the reading θεὸς. The reading θεὸς arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of OC as ΘC, or (b) deliberately....” - p. 641.

In actuality it appears to be a combination of both (with the emphasis on the latter). You see, the word ὃς was written in the most ancient manuscripts as OC (“C” being a common form for the ancient Greek letter “S” at that time). Most often at this time the word for God (θεὸς) was written in abbreviated form as ΘC. However, to show that it was an abbreviated form, a straight line, or bar, was always drawn above ΘC. So no copyist should have mistaken ὃς (or OC) for ΘC, in spite of their similarities, simply because of the prominent bar which appeared over the one and not over the other.

What may have happened was discovered by John J. Wetstein in 1714. As he was carefully examining one of the oldest NT manuscripts then known (the Alexandrine Manuscript in London) he noticed at 1 Tim. 3:16 that the word originally written there was OC but that a horizontal stroke from one of the words written on the other side of the manuscript showed through very faintly in the middle of the O. This still would not qualify as an abbreviation for θεὸς, of course, but Wetstein discovered that some person at a much later date and in a different style from the original writer had deliberately added a bar above the original word! Anyone copying from this manuscript after it had been deliberately changed would be likely to incorporate the counterfeit ΘC [with bar above it] into his new copy (especially since it reflected his own trinitarian views)!

Of course, since Wetstein’s day many more ancient NT manuscripts have been discovered and none of them before the eighth century A.D. have been found with ΘC (“God”) at this verse!

Trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris also concludes:

“The strength of the external evidence favoring OC [‘who’], along with considerations of transcriptional and intrinsic probability, have prompted textual critics virtually unanimously to regard OC as the original text, a judgment reflected in NA(26) [Nestle-Aland text] and UBS (1,2,3) [United Bible Societies text] (with a ‘B’ rating) [also the Westcott & Hort text]. Accordingly, 1 Tim 3:16 is not an instance of the Christological [‘Jesus is God’] use of θεὸς.” - Jesus as God, p. 268, Baker Book House, 1992.

And very trinitarian (Southern Baptist) NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson wrote about this scripture:

“He who (hos [or OC in the original text]). The correct text, not theos (God) the reading of the Textus Receptus ... nor ho (neuter relative [pronoun]), agreeing with [the neuter] musterion [‘mystery’] the reading of Western documents.” - p. 577, Vol. 4, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press.

And even trinitarian NT Greek scholar, Daniel B. Wallace uses the relative pronoun ὃς (‘who’) in this scripture and tells us:

“The textual variant θεὸς [‘god’] in the place of ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] has been adamantly defended by some scholars, particularly those of the ‘majority text’ school. Not only is such a reading poorly attested [8], but the syntactical argument that ‘mystery’ (μυστήριον) being a neuter noun, cannot be followed by the masculine pronoun (ὃς) is entirely without weight. As attractive theologically [for trinitarians, of course] as the reading θεὸς may be, it is spurious. To reject it is not to deny the deity of Christ, of course; it is just to deny any explicit reference in this text.” [italicized emphasis is by Wallace]. - pp. 341-342, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, 1996.

 

[Muffled]

It is obvious to any rational person that these verses refer to God.

John 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jesus did not create anything, God created everything. Everyone knows that except a brainwashed Trinitarian Christian.

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

We all know that many people saw Jesus. Therefore deductive reasoning tells any rational person that Jesus cannot be God.

I believe that Jesus as God created everything.

I believe if my brain is washed it is washed by the mind of Christ who is God.
1Cor 2:16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

I believe you think that God in Jesus ought to become visible. That is not the case. What you see when you see the physical body of Jesus is not God.

 

[Muffled]

John 1 does not say Jesus is God. A man cannot be God because a man is a man.
That is Logic 101 which completey eludes Trinitarian Christians.

I believe that is totally iogical. The man is not God. The God in the man is God.

 

[Muffled]

Which means that Jesus is not God.
Jesus was not God incarnated in the flesh, Jesus was God manifested in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God manifests Himself in the flesh in every age. "Him Whom God will make manifest" is Baha'u'llah.

“Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned…. That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 269-270

I believe an incarnation is a manifestation.

 

[Trailblazer]

@ Muffled

I believe that Jesus as God created everything.

I believe if my brain is washed it is washed by the mind of Christ who is God.
1Cor 2:16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

I believe you think that God in Jesus ought to become visible. That is not the case. What you see when you see the physical body of Jesus is not God.

I believe that God as God created everything.

My mind is not washed by anyone and I am so grateful for that.

I agree that the physical body of Jesus is not God. Nobody has ever seen God and that is how any rational person knows that Jesus is not God.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

P.S. When you use all those fancy colors it messes up the formatting on my replies.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that is totally illogical. The man is not God. The God in the man is God.

If you put it that way I fully agree. The Father is in the Son.

Jesus was the Son of God, but the Son is not identical to the Father, even though the Father is in the Son.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21), meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that Jesus and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings are identical with the Will of God Himself. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one and the same. Jesus also shares the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one and the same. The verse below says that God was manifest in the flesh; it does not say that God became flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.