Is Jesus the Archangel Michael ?

[74x12]

Ive answer your questions.

Answer mine

In reference to you statement that I serve 2 masters and that you cant serve both Mat 6:24

Gen 41:40-45 Tell Me are they 2 Master here or 1

I already answered that I actually agree with you on this being about Jesus. However it's a stretch to say this is one master rather than two.

 

[74x12]

I just one to add one more bit of evidence. In Gen 41:40-45 Just as Joseph was appointed ruler over all of Egypt by Pharaoh yet Joseph was not the Pharaoh.Pharaoh honored Joseph and gave him glory in as much he gave Joseph his own ring on his hand and a Gold chain about his neck., Made him to ride second Chariot and they cried bow the knee to Joseph. That was Glory Pharaoh Gave Joseph.Yet Joseph was not the pharaoh. Your most famous quote I will not give my glory to another is mistakenly interpreted.

A perfect picture of a future event that the Majesty on High the almighty,the lord God placed in history for us to read portraying The Majesty,s appointment of Jesus his only begotten creation before the world was ruler over all the earth Zach 14:9

Onother example in the bible of how Jesus is not ,never has been, nor ever will be the Majesty on High!!

There is difference from being Pharaoh's 2nd in command and then claiming that what glory belongs to Pharaoh is yours.

When Jesus returns in the glory of the Father then we'll see that He is the Father. (Matthew 16:27)

Zechariah 14:9 is about Jehovah so if you thought it was about Jesus then you were right but it's about Jesus who is Jehovah.

(Young's Literal Translation) 14:9 And Jehovah hath become king over all the land, In that day there is one Jehovah, and His name one.

 

[74x12]

1 John 3:1-6 No where says The father was in the world. But it does says that which was from the beginning. Also was with the Father. You see that word with. Follow the English language it indicate more than 1. It starts using the words from the beginning.The Majesty on High has no beginning but Jesus his first and only creation Rev 3:14 did. Before the worlds were created Jesus was spoken into existence John 1:30 John 6:62.John 6:38. Its all right there for you to deny!! These passage debunk oneness teaching that Jesus only existed after being born to Mary.

It does imply the Father is in the world!! 1 John 3:1-6 is clear evidence.

Jesus existed always as God. We do not believe that Jesus came into existence at birth. It's really very simple.

1. God existed
2. God spoke the Word (This is the Word that God would be manifest into the world)
3. The Word stayed hidden with God until the time came. The Word of God is the Son of God who would be revealed in the world.
4. The Word was manifest into the world. This is Jesus the Son who is God manifest.
5. The Word returned again to God as the scripture says "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." As Jesus said He came out from God and again He returns to the Father.
6. Now Jesus returned to the Father but sits on the Right hand in human form ruling and reigning until all Humanities enemies are put under His human feet. Jesus will sit and reign until the kingdom is perfected. Until all those in the body of Christ are built up together to the full stature of Christ. Until every bit of the temple of God which is comprised of living stones is finished and built up.
7. Then the Son of man truly returns to the Father at the head of the redeemed.

Again fellowship with the Father and the Son 2 Individuals 1 John 1:3

Yes, I suppose in so many words John is saying we have fellowship with the fullness of God. Not just part of God but all of God.

But you conveniently are not including 1 John 2:24 which again mentions the Father and the Son. Yet notice carefully what happens in verse 25!!! In verse 25 the scripture calls the Father and the Son as if they are One! Which they are! It calls the Son and the Father "he" which is singular tense! There is only One God!

1 John 2:24-25 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Besides Jesus always described the location of the majesty on high as in heaven. Luke 11:2 Our Father who is heaven. While Jesus his Son was on earth. And many such other passages.

That's because God is omnipresent and can be in as many places as He wants. But remember that Jesus taught the kingdom of God "is within you." (Luke 17:21) And even Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world.

Isaiah 9:6 Easy. The Hebrew word Elohim has many application Just like Theos does in the Greek. For instance 2 Cor 4:4 uses theos in regards to Satan the ruler of this world. Again in Psa 82:6 Elohim refers to Earthly rulers

Elohim means God or gods and Theos is the same. satan is a "god" for those who worship him. There are many called gods as Paul says. (1 Corinthians 8:5) But for us the church there is only One God and can only be One. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

In Isaiah 9:6 Jesus is perfectly described as the appointed ruler ( Mighty God)of the entire globe for 1000 years Ish 2:4 Jer 23:5 Dan 7:13-14. This one in-particular is very revealing for it shows one superior the ancient of days ( Majesty oh High) and one subordinate like the son of man (Jesus the Son of God) distinctly separate from the Majesty on high. as well as Mat 2:6

Not only does Isaiah 9:6 say taht Jesus is God but also the everlasting Father. There is only one Father for the church. (Ephesians 4:6) and even Jesus taught to call no man Father for One is your Father in heaven. (Matthew 23:9)

Zach 11 30 pieces of silver. There is no reference in the chapter about Jesus being God.

Jehovah is sold for 30 pieces of silver. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy proving He is God.

Zach 12:10 Thats easy Your referring to "and they shall look upon me. Go to Act 20:28 feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Now go to 1 John 1:7 the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanse us from all sin.

If they look on "me" whom they pierced and "me" is God; then Jesus is God.

 

[Apologetics]

That's because you really don't understand how Jesus being spoken beforehand by God works. If Jesus is spoken first; then He is first. He is first because He is the Word that is spoken first by God. Before anything else God decided and spoke that Jesus would be born into the world. That He would suffer and die and rise from the dead. All of this makes Jesus exist before anyone else.

You see You dont believe Jesus existed prior to being born of Mary. You just stated that above Thats the core of your doctrine.Everything you interpret revolves around that . Jesus only existed in a prophetic sense. You dont understand and refused to believe the testimonies of the writers. John 6:62. Here is your problem When you say Jesus only existed in a prophetic sense. Then John 6:62 has to be interpreted as follows. Jesus returns to the prophetic realm of not existing until the prophetic time occurs again. Now ask your self does that make any sense.

Of course not.

Take the writers testimony. John 6:62 Jesus said he exist before coming to Earth and again John 1:30 The baptist said Jesus existed before the baptist was born.

Thats their testimony.

 

[Apologetics]

However you're claiming something that doesn't make sense because you want Jesus to be a man(Adam in Hebrew) before there was a man(Adam). So you contradict the scripture that says Jesus is the second man. You're making Him the first man before He was even born. So you're saying Jesus was already flesh and blood in heaven. The first man is earthy and that is Adam not Jesus

Your only saying this because Jesus used the word son of man.. It is clear in John 17:5 That Jesus existed before the world was. Now in your eyes that means only in a prophetic sense Jesus was foretold to be Jesus. Thats your position. Jesus used a very important word in John 17:5 The word HAD is past tense as in already experienced not yet to be experienced in the future.

Something that is prophetic is an event not yet experience. The word Had is past tense already experienced. Jesus was returning to the Glory he had already experienced.

Your taking that word HAD and twisting to mean an event foretold yet to be experienced.

Thats very bad interpreting.

So its clear Jesus could not have been the first man because he existed before their was a world for the first man Adam to exist in.

Jesus only became a man in Heb 2:14 For as much as the children were partakers of flesh and blood he himself likewise to part of the same. Thats when Jesus became a man about 4000 years after Adam the first man.

 

[Apologetics]

I already answered that I actually agree with you on this being about Jesus. However it's a stretch to say this is one master rather than two.

Thats Good. But you only agree because Joseph only portrays the prophetic Jesus that does not exist yet . Ive brought it up to illustrate that it corroborates that Jesus who created the world Heb 1:2 is not the Majesty on High as Heb 1:3 portrays. In as much that even though Joseph ruled over all Egypt yet he still was not the Pharaoh. 2 separate persons living at the same time. Something you deny!!

I know you teach as a man Jesus is below the Majesty on High but that Jesus is still God the Majesty on High. Makes no sense at all.

It appears that to oneness teaching that if one was to observe God visually he would be something like a spinning being in which at various times Jesus shows up then the Majesty shows up and then the Holy spirit shows up all at different times but never all 3 at the same time in the same place.

Thats what you believe.

Thats the doctrine of a man. Not found in any of the apostle writings!!

Thing about this. you say Jesus did not existed until he was born of Mary. He existed in only a prophetic sense.

Yet Heb 1:2 and Eph 3:9 Says just the opposite. That Jesus created the worlds by the command of the majesty on High.

Which was hid in God who created all things by Jesus Christ.

What was hid? That the Majesty on High gave Jesus the honor and glory to create the worlds. Thats is what was hid

Now if Jesus did not exist until he was born of Mary how then could he have created anything.

You See the writers Taught that Jesus had a God over him Eph 1:3 Eph 1:17 1Pet 1:3

In heave Jesus said he had a God over him Rev 3:12 John 2017

Its the testimony of the writers that you refuse to accept.

 

[Apologetics]

Yes He was the Lord from heaven as 1 Corinthians 15:47 says. However to be the "Son of man" He must literally be born of a woman the descendant of Adam the first human. Jesus is not just called a "man" for nothing nor is He called the "Son of man" for no reason. He is literally those things because He was literally born a man of the seed of Adam and Eve the first humans. So you can quote scriptures all day that you think show you that Jesus "the man" existed before He was even born. But it changes nothing and I've noticed those verses before (trust me) As I've been trying to say there had to actually come a time in reality when He became what He already was in intent and in the plan and Word of God. As Luke 1:35 says "therefore" (For this reason) that holy thing that shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Greek word translated there as "therefore" is "dio" and means consequently:--for which cause, therefore, wherefore.

See this link to verify.

So Jesus certainly existed beforehand but in what form? He was not flesh and blood in heaven! He had to be born so that a body would exist that could live and die and rise from the dead.

Again You still dont understand

Heb 2:14-17 and Phil 2:8 Notice these 4 phrases

He took part of the same

Took upon himself

Behoved to be made like his brothers

Being found in fashion as a man.

In all these phrases the English is such that it portrays Jesus
transforming from an existence outside this universe to and existence equal to the inhabitants of earth.

But your stuck with the man made concept that Jesus only existed in a prophetic sense until the time appointed

Phil 2:8 in particular is very revealing because it portrays the emotions Jesus had after leaving the Majesty on highs side to fulfill his will where he existed before the world was separate from his father.

For it says after being found in the fashion of a man he humbled himself. Jesus has a mental realization that he was no longer in that Glorious existences he had with his Father. But a mere man Just like you and me Heb 4:15

You said

I've noticed those verses before (trust me) As I've been trying to say there had to actually come a time in reality when He became what He already was in intent and in the plan and Word of God. As Luke 1:35 says "therefore" (For this reason) that holy thing that shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Those verses you say you've noticed before John 1:30 John 6:62 John 6:38 have nothing to do with prophecy as you have above described. Thats where you go astray!!!

They have everything to do with the pre existence of Jesus as a being prior to being born of Mary. Nothing at all is about prophecy.

So go back read again and tell yourself these passage have nothing to do about prophecy. And just believe what they actually say. Take the English words for what they say.

This is exactly where the oneness teaching has twisted the writers words.

In regards to Jesus being called the son of God

Gabriel is merely helping Mary to comprehend what is about to transform her life. Hes describing to her how she will have a child even though she has never been with a man. The power of God he says which Mary has never experienced in her life but only read about in the books of Moses is going to cause her to have a child. Gabriel tells Mary that Jesus ( a Thing) shall be called the son of God Because Jesus did not come from Mary But from God. John 6:38 I came down from heaven, I Came out from God and came into the world John 16:27-28.

You see Gabriel did not say he shall be called the son of Mary. But the son of God.

Again Isa 9:8 The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel. Heb 2:14 Jesus took upon himself flesh and blood. He left his glory he had with the Majesty on high and became a man. John 17:5

1 Til 2:5 Paul calls Jesus For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

You see there Jesus is between the majesty on high and Fallen Man

In your world God at one moment puts on the face of Jesus to intercede to himself for fallen man and then the next moment he puts on the face of The Majesty on high to receive the intercession.

Thats nonsense


Remember this always Jesus did not come from Mary but from God.

 

[Apologetics]

There is difference from being Pharaoh's 2nd in command and then claiming that what glory belongs to Pharaoh is yours.

When Jesus returns in the glory of the Father then we'll see that He is the Father. (Matthew 16:27)

That Glory is the honor bestowed on Jesus exclusively to govern the world. Isah 2:4 Psa 2:8-8 Isa 9:6 Jer 23:5-6 Dan 7:13-14

Jesus is not, never has been, never will be the Majesty on High.Jesus has a God over him Rev 3:12 John 20:17. Jesus is not the majesty on High Heb 1:3

These are key fundamental passages that give exclusive direction to all others in regards to Jesus relationship with his Father.

Yes I know as a human so you teach.

You know Heb 2 :1 Start out by saying we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard again 2 Pet 3:2 To be mindful of the words that were spoken before by the holy prophets and of us the apostle.

Those words are Rev 3:12 John 20:17. Jesus is not the majesty on High Heb 1:3

I chose to believe their words.



You said
Zechariah 14:9 is about Jehovah so if you thought it was about Jesus then you were right but it's about Jesus who is Jehovah.

(Young's Literal Translation) 14:9 And Jehovah hath become king over all the land, In that day there is one Jehovah, and His name one.

The glory that Joseph received from Pharoah was the honor of exclusively taking command of all his household and all of Egypt.

The glory that the Majesty on high will give to Jesus is the ruler ship over all the earth Dan 7:13-14 Zac 14:9 under the authority of the Majesty on High .Just Like Joseph and Pharaoh. A perfect illustration!

In your world The majesty puts on the face of Jesus to rule the earth and show himself as Jesus to mankind Then the next moment he puts on the face of the Holy Spirit to teach mankind and then the next moment he puts back on the face of the Majesty on high to command the other 2 faces.

All this because Jesus and the Holy spirit have to be God

None sense

 

[Apologetics]

It does imply the Father is in the world!! 1 John 3:1-6 is clear evidence.

Jesus existed always as God. Presupposition We do not believe that Jesus came into existence at birth. It's really very simple.

1. God existed Yes
2. God spoke the Word (This is the Word that God would be manifest into the world)
Yes in the beginning Look at the word beginning in both John 1:1 and 1 John 1:1 It means the first in a series .Jesus was the first thing God created( Spoke into existence before the wold was. He spoke and Jesus the person appeared and called him his only begotten Son. Then Commanded Jesus to create the worlds Eph 3:9
3. The Word stayed hidden with God until the time came. No Hidden in Eph 3:9 means the world did not know that God commanded his Son to create the worlds The Word of God is the Son of God who would be revealed in the world. Again your Jesus who is only Jesus prophetically until born of Mary
4. The Word was manifest into the world. This is Jesus the Son who is God manifest.. Presupostion
5. The Word returned again to God as the scripture says "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Misinterpretation. Its talking about what God foretells thats going to happen happens Isa 46:9-11 As Jesus said He came out from God and again He returns to the Father.
6. Now Jesus returned to the Father So God returns to himself?? Nonsense but sits on the Right hand in human So God sits besides himself ?Non sense form ruling and reigning until all Humanities enemies are put under His human feet. Jesus will sit and reign until the kingdom is perfected. Until all those in the body of Christ are built up together to the full stature of Christ. Until every bit of the temple of God which is comprised of living stones is finished and built up.
7. Then the Son of man truly returns to the Father So God returns to himself ?Non sense at the head of the redeemed

 

[Apologetics]

Yes He had a human mind, will emotions. Obviously He was fully human. It does not say that He had a will separate from God before the incarnation. You're assuming things.

Assuming Im not!!!!!!Its right there for you to read. Jesus own words. I came down. You see again he did not come from Mary. Jesus the subordinate Son of God existed in heaven for he says I came down. You have to be somewhere to come down. To say I came down has nothing to do with prophecy either. Its a declaration of existing somewhere else and transporting to another location.

And Jesus explains that his exit from heaven was not of his own will. Right there a will separate from the Majesty. For he says My own will but the will of him that sent me.

In other words Jesus did presume authority and send himself. But he patiently waited obediently at the Majesty s side until the time appointed to enter the world and fulfill the Majesty Plans set forth before the world began.

Plain as day 2 wills separate from each other.

Again John 17:5 Glorify me( one person/will) with your own self( 2 nd person/will) Before the world was.

There is nothing prophetic at all in this passage. You call this a prophetic prophecy of a future event therefore there are no 2 persons.

Nothing could be farther from the truth!!

Oneness doctrine falls apart With John 1:30 John 6:62 John 6:38 John 20:17 Rev 2:12

We,ve went over these scriptures over and over. I see very clearly what you believe and why you believe it.

But you cant see what I see Because Jesus has to be God.

Why dont you just try believing that Jesus is not God and believe what the writers actually say he is Gods Son existing before the world was.

Why is that such a problem for you. Well since I understand your teaching its because God does not give his glory to another therefor Jesus has to be God .

Thats what locks it down for you and makes it an absolute concrete fact.

Where as I see something completely different than you.

The Holy Spirit doesn't teach one follower one thing and another followers something different.

One of us is wrong

One of us is not walking in the Spirit.

 

[Muffled]

Let me share with you what the early Christian Church taught and proclaimed in the Nicene Creed and other places: God is a Trinity. The Jehovah's Witness movement did not appear for nearly 2,000 years after Jesus and the apostles. Seems like a long time for the Holy Spirit to finally get it correct. I'll prefer the early church as the definitive guide for what historical Christianity is.

I believe that is incorrect. God is one. The Trinity is God.

I believe the Holy Spirit does not have two opposite opinions. It matters not whether tie has passed or not but whether a person truly has the Holy Spirit or just thinks he does.

 

[Muffled]

See Colossians 1:18 which calls Him the firstbegotten from the dead. And this is when He was raised by the Spirit (Romans 8:11) In other words He was born again from the dead by the holy Spirit. That's what I meant.

I believe the word begotten is often used as a reference to birth but it could be used in any case of getting to be and is not necessarily a reference to birth.

I believe that is still not correct. He was not born again, He was raised.

I believe in Colossians Paul is using "firstborn" as a metaphor to simply indicate that like a child that is firstborn before his brothers and sisters Jesus is the first person resurrected to a new body and His brothers and sisters will follow.

 

[74x12]

I believe the word begotten is often used as a reference to birth but it could be used in any case of getting to be and is not necessarily a reference to birth.

I believe that is still not correct. He was not born again, He was raised.

I believe in Colossians Paul is using "firstborn" as a metaphor to simply indicate that like a child that is firstborn before his brothers and sisters Jesus is the first person resurrected to a new body and His brothers and sisters will follow.

Jesus had to be born again by the holy Spirit. This fulfilled His victory over the flesh. The flesh was what was born of Mary. It was nailed to a cross so He put it to death. But when the holy Spirit breathed on Him causing the resurrection. Then He was born again. This time of the Spirit of God; so that He may live forever. We surely cannot live forever with just breathing oxygen you know? Our lungs cannot last forever. They'll give out eventually because they're only flesh. The Breath that God will gives us though is eternal breath if we believe and are partakers of the Resurrection that is in the body of Jesus Christ.

 

[Faithofchristian]

There's a lot of thoughts on this issue from the yes side and the no, but let me share with you what Jehovah shared with me through holy spirit. Jehovah God is the Supreme ruler the Alpha and Omega the King of the Universe right. Then who is the son of the King called ? Naturally the son of the King is called the Prince, and not just any son can be in line for kingship only the first born. Who's the only one Jehovah called his son and firstborn? Matthew 3 : 16 - 17 states 16) After being baptized, Jesus immediately came up from the water; and look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. 17 Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” Hebrews 1 : 5 - 6 states For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”? And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”? 6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.” As you see here Jesus meets all the requirements, but how is he Michael the Arch Angel you say well lets see. In Joshua 5 : 14 - 15 it states 14 To this he said: “No, but I have come as prince of Jehovah’s army.” With that Joshua fell with his face to the ground and prostrated himself and said to him: “What does my lord have to say to his servant?” 15 The prince of Jehovah’s army replied to Joshua: “Remove your sandals from your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy.” At once Joshua did so. I showed you this scripture because I wanted you to see an appearance that this Prince of Jehovah's army made in the old testament. You know Archangel means Chief Angel now lets see what this Chief Angel does in Revelations 12 : 7 - 9 it states 7) And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. Now this Chief angel threw satan and his demons out of heaven now the only one that can exercise some of the Kings authority would be his Son the Prince now lets see how Daniel brings everything together. In the opening of Daniel 12 : 1 it states 12) “During that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. As you can see the bible calls Michael the Great prince and the Prince is the Son of the King and there's only one that Jehovah directly calls his son. Jesus Christ the Nazarene.

Well seeing that Michael the Arch Angel is a created being and Jesus is not a created being,
So what do you think ?

If had notice that in Daniel the Prophet 12:1, states ( Michael the great prince )

Now notice ( prince ) is a lower case ( p )

As for the ( Prince ) has a higher case
( P ) signifying someone of a more higher position than the lower case ( p ) ( P )

Therefore Michael the Arch Angel has a lower case ( p ) than when speaking about the Lord Prince ( P ) a capital.

 

[74x12]

You see You dont believe Jesus existed prior to being born of Mary. You just stated that above Thats the core of your doctrine.Everything you interpret revolves around that . Jesus only existed in a prophetic sense. You dont understand and refused to believe the testimonies of the writers. John 6:62. Here is your problem When you say Jesus only existed in a prophetic sense. Then John 6:62 has to be interpreted as follows. Jesus returns to the prophetic realm of not existing until the prophetic time occurs again. Now ask your self does that make any sense.

Of course not.

Take the writers testimony. John 6:62 Jesus said he exist before coming to Earth and again John 1:30 The baptist said Jesus existed before the baptist was born.

Thats their testimony.

This is an obvious straw man argument you're giving here. I believe Jesus was in heaven and is in heaven and will always be. He's God. The scripture says there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the holy Spirit. (1 John 5:7) That scripture has been disparaged and taken out of the Bible by many misguided people. But it's still the truth. It doesn't matter what people believe from their corrupted versions.

 

[74x12]

Your only saying this because Jesus used the word son of man.. It is clear in John 17:5 That Jesus existed before the world was. Now in your eyes that means only in a prophetic sense Jesus was foretold to be Jesus. Thats your position. Jesus used a very important word in John 17:5 The word HAD is past tense as in already experienced not yet to be experienced in the future.

Something that is prophetic is an event not yet experience. The word Had is past tense already experienced. Jesus was returning to the Glory he had already experienced.

Your taking that word HAD and twisting to mean an event foretold yet to be experienced.

Thats very bad interpreting.

So its clear Jesus could not have been the first man because he existed before their was a world for the first man Adam to exist in.

Jesus only became a man in Heb 2:14 For as much as the children were partakers of flesh and blood he himself likewise to part of the same. Thats when Jesus became a man about 4000 years after Adam the first man.

You are making a nonsensical argument that Jesus is the son of a man before He was actually born a human. Clearly if Jesus is to be the Son of man; then He must be born human.

I've already explained the passage John 17:5 numerous times but you won't have it so. Just keep it in context of John 17:1 please.

 

[74x12]

Thats Good. But you only agree because Joseph only portrays the prophetic Jesus that does not exist yet . Ive brought it up to illustrate that it corroborates that Jesus who created the world Heb 1:2 is not the Majesty on High as Heb 1:3 portrays. In as much that even though Joseph ruled over all Egypt yet he still was not the Pharaoh. 2 separate persons living at the same time. Something you deny!!

I know you teach as a man Jesus is below the Majesty on High but that Jesus is still God the Majesty on High. Makes no sense at all.

It appears that to oneness teaching that if one was to observe God visually he would be something like a spinning being in which at various times Jesus shows up then the Majesty shows up and then the Holy spirit shows up all at different times but never all 3 at the same time in the same place.

Thats what you believe.

No it isn't what I believe. You're just putting words in my mouth. God can appear in any way He desires and is not limited. He can indeed appear as the Father, Son and holy Spirit at once if He wishes to do so. God's not limited.

The idea of Jesus being God who is a Spirit and yet manifesting in this reality in human form is nonsense to you because God hasn't shown you.

Thats the doctrine of a man. Not found in any of the apostle writings!!

Thing about this. you say Jesus did not existed until he was born of Mary. He existed in only a prophetic sense.

Yet Heb 1:2 and Eph 3:9 Says just the opposite. That Jesus created the worlds by the command of the majesty on High.

Which was hid in God who created all things by Jesus Christ.

What was hid? That the Majesty on High gave Jesus the honor and glory to create the worlds. Thats is what was hid

Now if Jesus did not exist until he was born of Mary how then could he have created anything.

You See the writers Taught that Jesus had a God over him Eph 1:3 Eph 1:17 1Pet 1:3

In heave Jesus said he had a God over him Rev 3:12 John 2017

Its the testimony of the writers that you refuse to accept.

Of course Jesus had a God! Have you even been paying attention to what I say? I guess not.

What was hidden was the incarnation of Jesus Christ. The fact that God would come into the world His own creation and die on a cross. This is what Peter was talking about in 1 Peter 1:18-21 and the word "manifest" means revealed. There was nothing hidden that is not meant to be revealed. Jesus was what was hidden since before the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:18-21 King James Version (KJV)
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

 

[74x12]

Again You still dont understand

Heb 2:14-17 and Phil 2:8 Notice these 4 phrases

He took part of the same

Took upon himself

Behoved to be made like his brothers

Being found in fashion as a man.

In all these phrases the English is such that it portrays Jesus
transforming from an existence outside this universe to and existence equal to the inhabitants of earth.

But your stuck with the man made concept that Jesus only existed in a prophetic sense until the time appointed

Phil 2:8 in particular is very revealing because it portrays the emotions Jesus had after leaving the Majesty on highs side to fulfill his will where he existed before the world was separate from his father.

For it says after being found in the fashion of a man he humbled himself. Jesus has a mental realization that he was no longer in that Glorious existences he had with his Father. But a mere man Just like you and me Heb 4:15

You said

I've noticed those verses before (trust me) As I've been trying to say there had to actually come a time in reality when He became what He already was in intent and in the plan and Word of God. As Luke 1:35 says "therefore" (For this reason) that holy thing that shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Those verses you say you've noticed before John 1:30 John 6:62 John 6:38 have nothing to do with prophecy as you have above described. Thats where you go astray!!!

They have everything to do with the pre existence of Jesus as a being prior to being born of Mary. Nothing at all is about prophecy.

So go back read again and tell yourself these passage have nothing to do about prophecy. And just believe what they actually say. Take the English words for what they say.

This is exactly where the oneness teaching has twisted the writers words.

In regards to Jesus being called the son of God

Gabriel is merely helping Mary to comprehend what is about to transform her life. Hes describing to her how she will have a child even though she has never been with a man. The power of God he says which Mary has never experienced in her life but only read about in the books of Moses is going to cause her to have a child. Gabriel tells Mary that Jesus ( a Thing) shall be called the son of God Because Jesus did not come from Mary But from God. John 6:38 I came down from heaven, I Came out from God and came into the world John 16:27-28.

You see Gabriel did not say he shall be called the son of Mary. But the son of God.

Again Isa 9:8 The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel. Heb 2:14 Jesus took upon himself flesh and blood. He left his glory he had with the Majesty on high and became a man. John 17:5

1 Til 2:5 Paul calls Jesus For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

You see there Jesus is between the majesty on high and Fallen Man

In your world God at one moment puts on the face of Jesus to intercede to himself for fallen man and then the next moment he puts on the face of The Majesty on high to receive the intercession.

Thats nonsense


Remember this always Jesus did not come from Mary but from God.

I actually do believe in a pre-incarnate Christ. He is God. How can i make myself any clearer than that?

It is you who don't understand.

In your world God at one moment puts on the face of Jesus to intercede to himself for fallen man and then the next moment he puts on the face of The Majesty on high to receive the intercession.

Thats nonsense

Don't you know that God has made the preaching of the cross is foolishness to the world? The way to understand the will of God is not conformed to this world's way of thinking but is to be transformed by the renewing of your mind so that you will be able to understand what is that good and acceptable will of God.

 

[A.C. Simon]

Alright so Jehovah Witnessess believe Jesus is creation while actual followers of Jesus believe He is God in the flesh, the creator, which was believed by the first disciples of Christ and the early church. But let me give you an argument as to why Jesus is creator and not creation which can not be denied.
Let me start of by saying a being is either creator or creation. Now in the beginning God spoke creation into existence, He created the universe by His Word: and in the bible(even the JW bible) it says Jesus is the Word that was in the beginning with God (John 1:1). So God created the universe by His Word (Jesus Christ), which means Jesus is not creation, but Creator: and therefore being God; and is not Michael the archangel, who is a part of creation and who Jesus Himself created.

 

[RabbiO]

Well seeing that Michael the Arch Angel is a created being and Jesus is not a created being,
So what do you think ?

If had notice that in Daniel the Prophet 12:1, states ( Michael the great prince )

Now notice ( prince ) is a lower case ( p )

As for the ( Prince ) has a higher case
( P ) signifying someone of a more higher position than the lower case ( p ) ( P )

Therefore Michael the Arch Angel has a lower case ( p ) than when speaking about the Lord Prince ( P ) a capital.

I tried explaining this to you once and it didn't take. So let's try this yet again.

Jewish scripture - what you would call the Old Testament - was not written in English. Daniel, in particular, was written in Hebrew and Aramaic.

THERE ARE NO CAPITAL LETTERS IN HEBREW OR ARAMAIC. NONE.

Do you understand that?

With the exception of place names and personal names, capitalization of words in translations into languages with capital letters represent editorial decisions made by translators who bring their own views, assumptions, biases if you will, to the task of translation.