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Is Jesus truly God?

atpollard

Active Member
But why do some people say God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and ever-present ?
1) By God gifting his intelligent creation withe free-will choices, then God withdraws His all knowingness about our choices.
2) By God placing limits on Himself then God is Not all powerful because God can Not lie.- Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18
3) By God's dwelling home being heaven, then God is Not present everywhere.

See God's chosen location mentioned at 1st Kings 8 vs 27,30,32,34,36,39,43,45,49
This seems more of an argument on semantics than an argument based on logic.

Some people claim that God is all-knowing, all-powerful and ever-present because we believe he is.
(While a completely self-serving statement, we believe it because it is true.). ;)

1) If you are referring to the conversation in the garden, then I think that some of God's questions are rhetorical and some are intended to offer Adam and Eve a chance to come clean right at the start ... A position that God seems to still take with sinners. Thus God was not taken by surprise by the human decision to sin. His omniscience is intact.

2) This is one of those semantic hairs being split. God cannot lie not because of a limit on his power, but because of how great his power is. Reality is what God says reality is, so the act of God saying 'The sky is green and the grass is blue' would in fact change reality so that the sky WOULD be green and the grass WOULD be blue. Remember how God created things in the first place ... He said 'Let there be' and it was so.

3) The Triune nature of God resolves most of this. The God is 'other' and God is Spirit aspect of God's nature/being resolves the rest. When you exist outside of time-space, some time-space rules do not really apply to any serious discussion on your location.

You will undoubtedly disagree, but that is your loss.
 

Blackmarch

W'rkncacntr
We read in Matthew 27:46:
“Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?’ which means, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me ?’ ”

Why did Jesus say and think this if he himself truly was God?

I have readed a answer that sound like: "Jesus was fully human. He fully experienced the pain of death and the feeling of separation." But i dont think this answer alone can give a real answer for this question. Im very interested in what you have to say about this.
Jesus is a God. So is his Father. I find where Christ prays for his apostles to be one with him as He (christ) was one with the Father. I also find Christ's rebuke "Is it not writeten ye are gods?" to be interesting. I keep getting the feeling that the general understanding of what a God is or what it means to be is flawed some way.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Jesus clearly, definitely, certainly, absolutely, was condemned by the Pharisees for blasphemy--equating Himself with God. How would you interpret this verse?

"...Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!" - Matthew 26:65
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
Jesus clearly, definitely, certainly, absolutely, was condemned by the Pharisees for blasphemy--equating Himself with God. How would you interpret this verse?

"...Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!" - Matthew 26:65
More interesting is the way that he then puts their mind at ease that it's not actually what he's saying. In other words, it's framed as a misunderstanding on the part of the Pharisees.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
More interesting is the way that he then puts their mind at ease that it's not actually what he's saying. In other words, it's framed as a misunderstanding on the part of the Pharisees.

Then what was His crime, for which the Pharisees were willing that He should die? The Pharisees assented to Jesus's death based on no other accusation. You and I also have to ask ourselves, "If Jesus wasn't a blasphemer who equated Himself with God, why did He remain silent at this accusation?"

One's crime, from the Roman view, was always displayed near one's cross. Jesus's crime was He is the King of the Jews.

And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them… Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, “No, but we will have a king over us, 20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.” -- from 1 Samuel 8

The Israelites were to be different, a unique theocracy with God as King. God appointed judges to judge Israel but the people lusted for a king. God was to be the King of the Jews.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
Then what was His crime, for which the Pharisees were willing that He should die? The Pharisees assented to Jesus's death based on no other accusation. You and I also have to ask ourselves, "If Jesus wasn't a blasphemer who equated Himself with God, why did He remain silent at this accusation?"

One's crime, from the Roman view, was always displayed near one's cross. Jesus's crime was He is the King of the Jews.

And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them… Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, “No, but we will have a king over us, 20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.” -- from 1 Samuel 8

The Israelites were to be different, a unique theocracy with God as King. God appointed judges to judge Israel but the people lusted for a king. God was to be the King of the Jews.
Funny, they'd had a number of kings previously. The whole "son of David" bit wasn't just a bunch of hot air, however sketchy it might be in a literal genealogical sense. The title "Son of God" was a royal title that also belonged to kings like David, and that's the primary sense of the phrase in the Hebrew Bible. The Messiah was supposed to be in the line of David, making him the rightful king of the entire land of Israel. The Messiah was not supposed to be God, literally speaking, and it's not clear that that idea existed at all prior to the late 2nd century.

Nor would the Romans have cared if Jesus had claimed divinity, and the Roman governors were the only ones with the authority to crucify him, which would have required a crime such as murder or sedition. Jesus was no murderer, so it's clear he was crucified because of his apparent claim to kingship over the Jews, and that claim was coming from his being identified as the Messiah. He, however, doesn't appear to have taken the royal titles literally or to have desired any kind of temporal, political authority. Basically, he was innocent of the crime they accused him of.

Now, Jesus does appear to have suggested that God was in him, but not necessarily in a unique fashion or an equivalency. If anything, he seems to repudiate that idea whenever it comes up. Paul, similarly, never equates Jesus with the Judaic God, except insofar as he says God is in all of us. It's already some pretty mystical stuff, but even so the later Trinitarian view would have been seen as wholly alien to the Judaic tradition. You can see the beginnings of things that will eventually lead to it, but reading it back into the early stuff is perilous.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Funny, they'd had a number of kings previously. The whole "son of David" bit wasn't just a bunch of hot air, however sketchy it might be in a literal genealogical sense. The title "Son of God" was a royal title that also belonged to kings like David, and that's the primary sense of the phrase in the Hebrew Bible. The Messiah was supposed to be in the line of David, making him the rightful king of the entire land of Israel. The Messiah was not supposed to be God, literally speaking, and it's not clear that that idea existed at all prior to the late 2nd century.

Nor would the Romans have cared if Jesus had claimed divinity, and the Roman governors were the only ones with the authority to crucify him, which would have required a crime such as murder or sedition. Jesus was no murderer, so it's clear he was crucified because of his apparent claim to kingship over the Jews, and that claim was coming from his being identified as the Messiah. He, however, doesn't appear to have taken the royal titles literally or to have desired any kind of temporal, political authority. Basically, he was innocent of the crime they accused him of.

Now, Jesus does appear to have suggested that God was in him, but not necessarily in a unique fashion or an equivalency. If anything, he seems to repudiate that idea whenever it comes up. Paul, similarly, never equates Jesus with the Judaic God, except insofar as he says God is in all of us. It's already some pretty mystical stuff, but even so the later Trinitarian view would have been seen as wholly alien to the Judaic tradition. You can see the beginnings of things that will eventually lead to it, but reading it back into the early stuff is perilous.

No, with respect, what I wrote about Saul, the first king of Israel, is certainly true.

And a look at Jesus's direct descent from David, combined with prophecies, demonstrates the "firstborn of Joseph" was indeed the Jewish King. However, He came the first time as a salvific King. Further, even a cursory reading of Revelation 19 has Jesus as returning King.

I like chatting with you, by the way, but as someone who believes in biblical inerrancy, I note you tend to give me historical context and so on but not the Bible. Statements like "the Messiah isn't God before the late 2nd century CE" contradict with statements like Isaiah 9, "the child who is born will bear the government on His shoulders [Jesus bore the cross there], will be called Prince of Peace, the Mighty God..."
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
I like chatting with you, by the way, but as someone who believes in biblical inerrancy, I note you tend to give me historical context and so on but not the Bible. Statements like "the Messiah isn't God before the late 2nd century CE" contradict with statements like Isaiah 9, "the child who is born will bear the government on His shoulders [Jesus bore the cross there], will be called Prince of Peace, the Mighty God..."
Well, I never claimed to believe in Biblical inerrancy. It's a minority position in the Christian tradition, so I don't see it as essential--which is good because I don't see it as a tenable position to begin with. You'll find I often bring up context because the Bible often isn't sufficient as its own context, especially in translation. I can tell you from the Septuagint that the passage you quote isn't equating the Messiah as "mighty god" to the God of Israel, as the Greek doesn't allow for it. What little I can make out in the Hebrew, as well as the standard interpretations of Jews who can read it much better than I, is that El-Gibbor is a theonym of the sort that was not uncommon in ancient Hebrew, meaning "God is Mighty." Both languages show different syntax from what one would expect if the author were equating the Messiah with God.

As for the "on his shoulders" bit, that's a very creative reading, but it's too much of a stretch to take seriously. It's a very common metaphor in numerous languages and there's no reason to imagine it's referring to a cross here. Not to mention that equating a torture device with the ἀρχή or rule/government of the Messiah is a grisly image and not really in the spirit of the Christian message, which is that Jesus as the Messiah was a king figure, but not an earthly one as people were expecting, and his kingdom is not a literal government but rather the perfection of the world.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Well, I never claimed to believe in Biblical inerrancy. It's a minority position in the Christian tradition, so I don't see it as essential--which is good because I don't see it as a tenable position to begin with. You'll find I often bring up context because the Bible often isn't sufficient as its own context, especially in translation. I can tell you from the Septuagint that the passage you quote isn't equating the Messiah as "mighty god" to the God of Israel, as the Greek doesn't allow for it. What little I can make out in the Hebrew, as well as the standard interpretations of Jews who can read it much better than I, is that El-Gibbor is a theonym of the sort that was not uncommon in ancient Hebrew, meaning "God is Mighty." Both languages show different syntax from what one would expect if the author were equating the Messiah with God.

As for the "on his shoulders" bit, that's a very creative reading, but it's too much of a stretch to take seriously. It's a very common metaphor in numerous languages and there's no reason to imagine it's referring to a cross here. Not to mention that equating a torture device with the ἀρχή or rule/government of the Messiah is a grisly image and not really in the spirit of the Christian message, which is that Jesus as the Messiah was a king figure, but not an earthly one as people were expecting, and his kingdom is not a literal government but rather the perfection of the world.

You can look at other threads here where I discuss the Mighty God prophecy with Orthodox Jewish readers. Recall, however, that Jesus used a quotation from Daniel referring to the Messiah residing in Heaven at the right hand of God and then the Pharisees said He'd blasphemed, equating Himself with God...

...There are dozens of hierophanies and Christological OT references to the shoulders/cross. Issac carried the wood for his own sacrifice on his shoulders, for one great example of a picture of Jesus. I mean, Jesus did exactly the same thing, didn't He?

Also--this is something more personal that I discussed with someone yesterday, a friend--I try not to make doctrinal choices based on whether they are currently minority or majority positions. Being a Jew is being a minority, and a Christian Jew even less "popular".

I know I'm saved, that is my interior witness that I'm 100% sure of my standing with God. It's harder to discern that stance with others, of course--but I'm always relieved when someone says, "I LOVE every word of the Bible--it's all true!" and distressed when someone isn't fundamentalist/evangelical. One of my degrees is from a secular university in Religion, and I've waded deep in the waters of "majority, scholarly viewpoints". Some, not all of these scholars, don't know Jesus from a hole in the head IMHO!
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
You can look at other threads here where I discuss the Mighty God prophecy with Orthodox Jewish readers. Recall, however, that Jesus used a quotation from Daniel referring to the Messiah residing in Heaven at the right hand of God and then the Pharisees said He'd blasphemed, equating Himself with God...

...There are dozens of hierophanies and Christological OT references to the shoulders/cross. Issac carried the wood for his own sacrifice on his shoulders, for one great example of a picture of Jesus. I mean, Jesus did exactly the same thing, didn't He?

Also--this is something more personal that I discussed with someone yesterday, a friend--I try not to make doctrinal choices based on whether they are currently minority or majority positions. Being a Jew is being a minority, and a Christian Jew even less "popular".

I know I'm saved, that is my interior witness that I'm 100% sure of my standing with God. It's harder to discern that stance with others, of course--but I'm always relieved when someone says, "I LOVE every word of the Bible--it's all true!" and distressed when someone isn't fundamentalist/evangelical. One of my degrees is from a secular university in Religion, and I've waded deep in the waters of "majority, scholarly viewpoints". Some, not all of these scholars, don't know Jesus from a hole in the head IMHO!
Well, the bit about residing at the right hand of God seems to be a reference to the idea that the Messiah had been held in reserve since the beginning of creation, which has scriptural precedent, sort of like how Twelver Muslims believe that the twelfth imam has been occulted until such a time as he will appear to herald the end of days. That seems to be what John is getting at by equating the Christ with the divine Logos that preexisted the world (cf. Mark, which appears to be adoptionist in orientation, granting Jesus the title Son of God at his baptism). And as Jesus points out, there is scriptural precedent for using the term elohim to refer to people (kings, judges, et al., including the Messiah), so it's not strictly a divine name, although it is a term that references the divine.

I hear what you're saying about correspondences between the story of Jesus, and I think it would be foolish to ignore those or dismiss them all as mere coincidence. Those correspondences are a large part of how ancient authors constructed meaning, both in Jewish and Greco-Roman traditions. The Gospels are very sophisticated, highly allusive and intertextual works that operate on multiple levels at once. They were composed by people with an intimate knowledge of the Hebrew Bible. All of those correspondences are deliberate, and all of them are trying to communicate something to an audience that was assumed to be equally well versed in the source material. There's a lot of meaning there for those with eyes to see, but I find that many people of a fundamentalist/biblicist bent tend to want to make those correspondences into something that they're not, such as independent evidence of what Jesus was, as opposed to a means by which the authors are deliberately constructing an understanding of what he was. That approach, ironically, takes the Gospels to be far less sophisticated and learned works than they actually are.

As for the majority/minority thing, I'm not suggesting that an opinion is correct just because the majority holds it. I've often felt that the majority of Christians have missed the point of one thing or another across the centuries, and the Christian tradition is pretty much founded on the understanding that it's possible for the majority of people to be mistaken about something. On the other hand, in the realm of scholarship, the communis opinio is worth taking seriously, and deviating from it, though perfectly possible (otherwise the communis opinio would stagnate), does entail a certain burden of evidence. But really what I was referring to was mostly the fundamentalist attitude, which is that people who don't believe X, Y, and Z aren't "real" members of the tradition. Even leaving aside that I find it a nasty and un-Christ-like tendency, that sort of thing often calls for a reality check, such as remembering that the tradition is a much bigger tent and always has been.
 

atpollard

Active Member
More interesting is the way that he then puts their mind at ease that it's not actually what he's saying. In other words, it's framed as a misunderstanding on the part of the Pharisees.
Just a small point, but not in Matthew.
Nothing in Matthew after Matthew 26:65 (the verse BilliardsBall quoted) even comes close to Jesus claiming it was all a misunderstanding.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
Just a small point, but not in Matthew.
Nothing in Matthew after Matthew 26:65 (the verse BilliardsBall quoted) even comes close to Jesus claiming it was all a misunderstanding.
It's true. I had been reading John and was thinking of a passage there and got confused about which one we were talking about. The one in Matthew is of a completely different character (not that it refutes anything I said in general terms, as the priest's problem there is that Jesus won't deny being the Messiah, not that he's claiming to be God).
 

atpollard

Active Member
It's true. I had been reading John and was thinking of a passage there and got confused about which one we were talking about. The one in Matthew is of a completely different character (not that it refutes anything I said in general terms, as the priest's problem there is that Jesus won't deny being the Messiah, not that he's claiming to be God).
Did you mean:

John 10
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

I have to admit that I don't quite get John 10:34-36.
He does appear to be backpedaling on the whole 'I am God' claim ... but John 1 (JW translations notwithstanding) seems pretty unambiguous on that particular claim.
And then John 10:37-38 seems to rally back to the message of John 1.
... so yeah, I have some personal questions on that part, too.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
We shall simply have to disagree. I do not view the Bible as perfect.

As far as the Bible being perfect, I would like to mention that there is a BIG difference between recognizing minor mistakes that crept into ' copies ' of Biblical text and dismissing the whole Bible as fallible. The Bible itself claims God as Author at 2nd Timothy 3: 16,17
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Did you mean:
John 10
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
I have to admit that I don't quite get John 10:34-36.
He does appear to be backpedaling on the whole 'I am God' claim ... but John 1 (JW translations notwithstanding) seems pretty unambiguous on that particular claim.
And then John 10:37-38 seems to rally back to the message of John 1.
... so yeah, I have some personal questions on that part, too.

Please compare John 10:35 with Psalm 82:6. Those ' human judges ' were as ' gods' in that they were to use God's recorded judgments as their guide or their judgment in handling matters as to what was right or what was wrong in God's eyes.

Jesus was saying who he was at John 10:36 B that he is the Son of God.
Even the demons know who Jesus was at Luke 4:41 that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.

Also, please note the same Greek grammar rule applies at Acts 28:6 B that also applies at John 1:1
The letter ' a ' was added at Acts 28: 6 B, and the letter ' a ' omitted at John 1:1

Gospel writer John wrote at John 1:18 that No man has seen God at any time. People saw Jesus.
John also bears record ( for the record ) at John 1:34 that Jesus is Son..
Nathanael at John 1:49 believed Jesus was the Son...
Peter, at John 6:69 as spokesman for the 12, said Christ is the Son...
Martha, at John 11:27, said Jesus is the Son.....

So, Jesus is Not back peddling but its false clergy who are teaching what is Not found in Scripture as being Scripture.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
Did you mean:

John 10
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

I have to admit that I don't quite get John 10:34-36.
He does appear to be backpedaling on the whole 'I am God' claim ... but John 1 (JW translations notwithstanding) seems pretty unambiguous on that particular claim.
And then John 10:37-38 seems to rally back to the message of John 1.
... so yeah, I have some personal questions on that part, too.
Yes, that's the one. I was thinking about it recently, so it was on my mind before I drifted into this discussion. Jesus is alluding to Psalm 82, in which Yahweh is addressing a council of elohim, which either means "gods" or the assembled kings and judges of the world. The word is very ambiguous in Hebrew, as it seems to come from an abbreviated genitive construction. It makes more sense in Greek because θεός is similarly ambiguous in meaning. But yes, the point of Jesus's response is that the Pharisees have gotten him wrong and he is not claiming equivalency with the Judaic god.

However, he does suggest a kind of "mutual indwelling" between himself and God (that's the term people use, to distinguish it from a direct identification or equivalency), although at no point does he suggest that is unique to him. On the contrary, he and Paul always seem to be suggesting that God is in everyone, and Jesus here seems to suggest that the reverse is also true. This makes good sense in light of Paul Tillich's theology, which understands God to be the very basis of Being itself, so that nothing is truly apart from God, and God manifests personally in each of us, though most iconically in the form of the Christ.

As for John 1, although I'm the last person to advocate for a JW translation, it's true that the Greek doesn't support an equivalency there either. Like the Hebrew elohim, the Greek θεός is much more semantically versatile than the English word god. You really have to rely on the syntax to make sense of it, and in John 1, as in various other places in the NT, the omission of the definite article is significant. English wouldn't translate the article, since that's not how we use it, but it would be the normal signal to understand θεός as God instead of as something related to divinity in some nonspecific way. The same applies when Paul says that Jesus the Christ will be recognized as θεός by all people. Modern folk tend to want to see any attribution of divinity in a monotheistic context as denoting personal equivalency to God, but even in the Hebrew Bible that's not the case. There are people and things and concepts that are of God and are described with these words and constructions.

As I think I mentioned earlier, John 1 is probably expressing the belief that the Messiah had been prepared from the very beginning to perfect creation at the appointed time, as well as drawing in the concept of logos from Greek philosophy as a way of understanding the Christ's intermediary function between God and Man. There's a lot of fascinating stuff going on there. However, it would be a mistake to read orthodox Trinitarian doctrine into it as many people do, since that was still a couple of centuries away and almost certainly not what the Johannine author had in mind (much less his original audience, who would never have heard of such a thing).
 

atpollard

Active Member
Yes, that's the one. I was thinking about it recently, so it was on my mind before I drifted into this discussion. Jesus is alluding to Psalm 82, in which Yahweh is addressing a council of elohim, which either means "gods" or the assembled kings and judges of the world. The word is very ambiguous in Hebrew, as it seems to come from an abbreviated genitive construction. It makes more sense in Greek because θεός is similarly ambiguous in meaning. But yes, the point of Jesus's response is that the Pharisees have gotten him wrong and he is not claiming equivalency with the Judaic god.

However, he does suggest a kind of "mutual indwelling" between himself and God (that's the term people use, to distinguish it from a direct identification or equivalency), although at no point does he suggest that is unique to him. On the contrary, he and Paul always seem to be suggesting that God is in everyone, and Jesus here seems to suggest that the reverse is also true. This makes good sense in light of Paul Tillich's theology, which understands God to be the very basis of Being itself, so that nothing is truly apart from God, and God manifests personally in each of us, though most iconically in the form of the Christ.

As for John 1, although I'm the last person to advocate for a JW translation, it's true that the Greek doesn't support an equivalency there either. Like the Hebrew elohim, the Greek θεός is much more semantically versatile than the English word god. You really have to rely on the syntax to make sense of it, and in John 1, as in various other places in the NT, the omission of the definite article is significant. English wouldn't translate the article, since that's not how we use it, but it would be the normal signal to understand θεός as God instead of as something related to divinity in some nonspecific way. The same applies when Paul says that Jesus the Christ will be recognized as θεός by all people. Modern folk tend to want to see any attribution of divinity in a monotheistic context as denoting personal equivalency to God, but even in the Hebrew Bible that's not the case. There are people and things and concepts that are of God and are described with these words and constructions.

As I think I mentioned earlier, John 1 is probably expressing the belief that the Messiah had been prepared from the very beginning to perfect creation at the appointed time, as well as drawing in the concept of logos from Greek philosophy as a way of understanding the Christ's intermediary function between God and Man. There's a lot of fascinating stuff going on there. However, it would be a mistake to read orthodox Trinitarian doctrine into it as many people do, since that was still a couple of centuries away and almost certainly not what the Johannine author had in mind (much less his original audience, who would never have heard of such a thing).
I get the reference to judges as 'little gods' (in the sense that they pass judgement, uphold justice and are appointed by the big 'God'), It just seems an odd response to their specific issue.
I must respectfully disagree with your conclusion on the trinity ... if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and talks like a duck ...
... Jesus forgave sin. Jesus accepted worship. People who spoke the language of his day fluently were constantly accusing him of claiming divinity.
... I find it easier to believe that he was actually making the claim, than to believe that many references in many books/letters all got it wrong.
I believe that the people of the first century understood exactly what he was claiming, wrote it down late in the first century when it was clear that they would not be around to tell people in person forever, and they accurately transmitted this jaw-dropping truth to the Christians of the second century who faithfully copied their first century witness for others to read.
[On this we will undoubtedly need to agree to disagree.] :)
 

atpollard

Active Member
Please compare John 10:35 with Psalm 82:6. Those ' human judges ' were as ' gods' in that they were to use God's recorded judgments as their guide or their judgment in handling matters as to what was right or what was wrong in God's eyes.

Jesus was saying who he was at John 10:36 B that he is the Son of God.
Even the demons know who Jesus was at Luke 4:41 that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.

Also, please note the same Greek grammar rule applies at Acts 28:6 B that also applies at John 1:1
The letter ' a ' was added at Acts 28: 6 B, and the letter ' a ' omitted at John 1:1

Gospel writer John wrote at John 1:18 that No man has seen God at any time. People saw Jesus.
John also bears record ( for the record ) at John 1:34 that Jesus is Son..
Nathanael at John 1:49 believed Jesus was the Son...
Peter, at John 6:69 as spokesman for the 12, said Christ is the Son...
Martha, at John 11:27, said Jesus is the Son.....

So, Jesus is Not back peddling but its false clergy who are teaching what is Not found in Scripture as being Scripture.
The conversation that made the people want to stone him went like this:

John 10:
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.30 I and the Father are one.”

It requires a lot more linguistic gymnastics to rearrange that conversation to mean that they all 'misunderstood' what he was saying, than to believe that Jesus said what he meant, meant what he said and they understood perfectly ... they just did not believe him ... which is not completely unreasonable considering how radical his claim is.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Well, the bit about residing at the right hand of God seems to be a reference to the idea that the Messiah had been held in reserve since the beginning of creation, which has scriptural precedent, sort of like how Twelver Muslims believe that the twelfth imam has been occulted until such a time as he will appear to herald the end of days. That seems to be what John is getting at by equating the Christ with the divine Logos that preexisted the world (cf. Mark, which appears to be adoptionist in orientation, granting Jesus the title Son of God at his baptism). And as Jesus points out, there is scriptural precedent for using the term elohim to refer to people (kings, judges, et al., including the Messiah), so it's not strictly a divine name, although it is a term that references the divine.

I hear what you're saying about correspondences between the story of Jesus, and I think it would be foolish to ignore those or dismiss them all as mere coincidence. Those correspondences are a large part of how ancient authors constructed meaning, both in Jewish and Greco-Roman traditions. The Gospels are very sophisticated, highly allusive and intertextual works that operate on multiple levels at once. They were composed by people with an intimate knowledge of the Hebrew Bible. All of those correspondences are deliberate, and all of them are trying to communicate something to an audience that was assumed to be equally well versed in the source material. There's a lot of meaning there for those with eyes to see, but I find that many people of a fundamentalist/biblicist bent tend to want to make those correspondences into something that they're not, such as independent evidence of what Jesus was, as opposed to a means by which the authors are deliberately constructing an understanding of what he was. That approach, ironically, takes the Gospels to be far less sophisticated and learned works than they actually are.

As for the majority/minority thing, I'm not suggesting that an opinion is correct just because the majority holds it. I've often felt that the majority of Christians have missed the point of one thing or another across the centuries, and the Christian tradition is pretty much founded on the understanding that it's possible for the majority of people to be mistaken about something. On the other hand, in the realm of scholarship, the communis opinio is worth taking seriously, and deviating from it, though perfectly possible (otherwise the communis opinio would stagnate), does entail a certain burden of evidence. But really what I was referring to was mostly the fundamentalist attitude, which is that people who don't believe X, Y, and Z aren't "real" members of the tradition. Even leaving aside that I find it a nasty and un-Christ-like tendency, that sort of thing often calls for a reality check, such as remembering that the tradition is a much bigger tent and always has been.

God is good and gives us both--both lovely things in the face value reading of the text, and the more sophisticated allusions, references, metaphors, hints, etc. in scripture. Hebraic understanding has four levels to look at scripture, and only one is the Hebrew itself, what it "plainly says".

Although one fact I take for independent evidence for Jesus is the dozen authors of the NT. When I hear "You only have the NT" I remind people it's not a book but plural books from plural sources.

And I hear the ire you feel at fundamentalists also being exclusivist. I just want to know if people believe the scripture or not. Yes, I agree, tradition is a big tent with open arms--however, Jesus rightly upbraided the religious of his day for missing the scriptures telling of His coming while persuading men to follow the traditions even where the traditions were to be above the scripture.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Please compare John 10:35 with Psalm 82:6. Those ' human judges ' were as ' gods' in that they were to use God's recorded judgments as their guide or their judgment in handling matters as to what was right or what was wrong in God's eyes.

Jesus was saying who he was at John 10:36 B that he is the Son of God.
Even the demons know who Jesus was at Luke 4:41 that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.

Also, please note the same Greek grammar rule applies at Acts 28:6 B that also applies at John 1:1
The letter ' a ' was added at Acts 28: 6 B, and the letter ' a ' omitted at John 1:1

Gospel writer John wrote at John 1:18 that No man has seen God at any time. People saw Jesus.
John also bears record ( for the record ) at John 1:34 that Jesus is Son..
Nathanael at John 1:49 believed Jesus was the Son...
Peter, at John 6:69 as spokesman for the 12, said Christ is the Son...
Martha, at John 11:27, said Jesus is the Son.....

So, Jesus is Not back peddling but its false clergy who are teaching what is Not found in Scripture as being Scripture.

I have not denied that the Christ is God's Son. I also will not deny that the Christ is God, One with God, etc.
 
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