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Is Jiva the same thing according to Ramanuja and Shankara?

The Crimson Universe

Active Member
I am not here to change anyone's views of advaita: I have my own understanding in accordance with my knowledge of science. I do not use Hindu terms from the scriptures to discuss my advaita as I believe we should use simple English terminology that anyone can understand. I have no idea what you mean by the terms you have used even though I am Indian and well versed in Hindi, Oriya, Bengali and Urdu.
The terms i used are actually sanskrit terms, taken from the scriptures.
Jnanendriyas are the 5 senses of perception. Karmendriyas are the 5 types of actions. They are spoken of in the upanishads. They're not hindi words. I think we all should be familiar with the Sanskrit terms and their correct English translations if we want to get a clear picture of what the scriptures are trying to tell us.
 

The Crimson Universe

Active Member
Deha means body, and dehi is obviously the possessor or owner of the body.

That would mean the subtle body, which is the body of the mind and vital energies (prana/chi), which keeps the body alive.Together with the causal body( from which it sprouts or extends from), it is the transmigrating soul or jiva, separating from the gross body upon death.

The causal body which is the body of past egocentric impressions, is contained in the subtle body. And so yes, it contains the ego in a latent state.

Meher Baba considered the subtle body as the vehicle of desires and vital forces. Desire (craving-aversion) is the expression of the ego , and vice versa.

Thanks ajay0.
And what about kshetrajna and purusha. Are they the same thing (dehi)? Or are they the witness Atman?
 
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Shantanu

Well-Known Member
The terms i used are actually sanskrit terms, taken from the scriptures.
Jnanendriyas are the 5 senses of perception. Karmendriyas are the 5 types of actions. They are spoken of in the upanishads. They're not hindi words. I think we all should be familiar with the Sanskrit terms and their correct English translations if we want to get a clear picture of what the scriptures are trying to tell us.
How do you suppose that those who wrote the Upanishads got their ideas from?
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Thanks ajay0.
And what about kshetrajna and purusha. Are they the same thing (dehi)? Or are they the witness Atman?

Kshetrajna is the pure conscious spirit that is Atman and Purusha.

The dehi as emphasized above is the causal and subtle bodies, containing the body of past egocentric impressions, which manifests as desire in the form of cravings and aversions. So obviously that will come in the domain of Prakriti or insentient matter.

Kshetrajna - Wikipedia

A word to the wise. Not much people know about advaita here and some would give all kinds of explanations and interpretations rather than confess their ignorance. So do be prudent when asking questions or else you can end up being taken for a ride and getting more confused and unclear.

As stated earlier, I have found Atanu, Ameyatma and Tattvaprahav to be authentic scholars in Advaita Vedanta over here.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
In my view Advaita is the single most important contribution of India to world civilisation. It marks Hinduism's distinctness from all other religions, namely that the human being and a higher Entity are inseparable. That is all advaita means. Then the seeker of the truth has to determine the relationship between the human being and the higher Entity. It gives rise to all kinds of speculations which Hindus are entitled to follow according to their individual perceptions. Dvaita, vishistaadvaita, shudha advaita, etc. My own concept is satya-advaita. Aup is the total advaitist, no need for any more precise definition.

No one except a very conceited person would say that one theory is the true theory of advaita. It is saying that my religion is the best, which is stupid. People have their own reasons for their beliefs. We Hindus respect the right of an individual to hold on to his beliefs. That is how we are created through the guna consciousness in Nature.

Having said that I fully accept that Advaita Vedanta derives from the Upanishads. But it is not the most widely accepted view of the ultimate reality.
 
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The Crimson Universe

Active Member
A word to the wise. Not much people know about advaita here and some would give all kinds of explanations and interpretations rather than confess their ignorance. So do be prudent when asking questions or else you can end up being taken for a ride and getting more confused and unclear.
Yes, you're right about that.

Also i would like to know one thing. If Atman/Brahman is immovable (i think the sanskrit term is achala or stheera), then why do we see movement all around us?
 
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ameyAtmA

~ ~
Premium Member
If Atman/Brahman is immovable (i think the sanskrit term is achala or stheera), then why do we see movement all around us?

1. Movement in this context is a constant appearance of change of states - which is constant, and within AtmA, not outside of it.

2. Achala - steadiness is the nature of the AtmA - the Purush[ottam] whereas constant movement (chanchaltA) is the nature of PrakRuti (Lakshmi is chanchal, VishNu is achal, in samAdhI, yog-nidrA)

3. The one who sees movement or change of state and thinks something is really changing, is not the AtmA. It is the anAtmA who thinks "this happened", "that changed" at its level (of unAtmA).

4. Just like you do not go about the day saying "Look! This cell in the body changed."


Reference: Bhagavad GeetA Chapter 13 kshetra-kshetradnya-yog : BG13.13,14,15,16,17 (jyotishAmapi jyoti), 19, 20, 22
BG14.27, BG15.16,17,18 (Purushottam Yog)

----
* Regarding Dehi -- which has already been explained quite well on this thread:

BG 15.8 is a very good pointer to understand the transmigrating dehi (just as air carries fragrance from flower, so does the transmigrating one carry the accumulated vAsanA and samskAr) .

No doubt it is the entire subtle body that transmigrates. What I meant by "transmigrating token-ID" and ahaMkAr -- is that , look at it as a database of all transmigrating entities.
Ishwar has to index the database to keep track. So the primary key has to be an ID, or like a token that gets passed around. I understood that token as first a function of ahaMkAr (not as a negative term, but as functional ego) which says "I am this" . The vAsanA, vRuttI ,, etc. are details attached to the ego which temporarily define the ego -- the Primary Key. The vAsanA , temperament formed, shaped mind, aquired saMskAr -- keep changing (data fields that keep getting updated, and are not part of the key), but the transmigrator ID remains as the record of the dehi and cannot be changed (until you delete the record itself - moksha).
 
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The Crimson Universe

Active Member
Movement in this context is a constant appearance of change of states - which is constant, and within AtmA, not outside of it.
Yes i know that all is happening within the canvas (of atman) and not outside of it. :=) But by 'appearance' do you mean, all these change of states that we see in our daily life are simply apparent. That it appears or seems to be changing, but in reality they're not changing? That they're just illusion as Shankara says?
Well, i don't think that the changes are mithya or illusion. They are real since we can actually see and feel it.
Atman/spirit, manifesting as matter (our known physical universe) is the biggest change, don't you think?

Achala - steadiness is the nature of the AtmA, whereas constant movement (chanchaltA) is the nature of PrakRuti
But they're the same entity and not separate. How can chanchalta also be achala at the same time? This is something that puzzles me.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
There's this thing that advaita says, that makes no sense. On one hand they say that everything around us is Brahman AKA Atman, including our mind, subtle body, mountains, trees etc. And then they make a distinction between Atman and the objects of this universe.

Atman or Brahman is pure consciousness that pervades everything including energy and matter, which are its gross forms or manifestations.

We now know that all matter is energy at a subtler level thanks to Einsteins discoveries in the twentieth century. The ancient and modern enlightened masters say similarly that both energy and matter are grosser manifestations of pure consciousness which seems to be the fundamental state or subtlest state.

I have already remarked about this with examples in this post.

Does Atman travels after death in advaita vedanta?

In nuclear energy, you are interested in the energy contained within a solid block of uranium, not in the block itself.


Here is an excerpt of Swami Vivekananda's interaction with Nikola Tesla when he was in the west....

Swami Vivekananda, late in the year l895 wrote in a letter to an English friend, "Mr. Tesla thinks he can demonstrate mathematically that force and matter are reducible to potential energy. I am to go and see him next week to get this new mathematical demonstration. In that case the Vedantic cosmoloqy will be placed on the surest of foundations. I am working a good deal now upon the cosmology and eschatology of the Vedanta. I clearly see their perfect union with modern science, and the elucidation of the one will be followed by that of the other." (Complete Works, Vol. V, Fifth Edition, 1347, p. 77).


Nikola Tesla and Swami Vivekananda


It was however Einstein later on who proved that matter is reducible to potential energy.

Mass–energy equivalence - Wikipedia


If Prakriti is not a separate entity (i.e. if this insentient matter called prakriti dwells within the vast infinite canvas of Atman) then why do they create distinction between them? If they're one and the same, then why not worship prakriti instead (paganism) or remain happy with matter?

The egocentric impressions or vasanas within the causal body is but matter or energy-particles in a sense(distinct from the Atman or pure consciousness) which perpetuates bondage to matter by creating desire for material objects or sense-pleasures.

As long as one is in the grip of the ego or craving-aversion, one is said to be under the influence or domination of Prakriti.

Just as one takes a bath to get rid of dirt, spiritual practices is nothing but spiritual bathing to get rid of the vasanas or impressions in the causal body which perpetuate bondage to matter through cravings/aversions.

In the yogi or enlightened one in whom all vasanas have been annihilated through spiritual practice, pure consciousness is dominant and is not under the domination of Prakriti anymore.

In yogic parlance, it is then said that Prakriti becomes a slave or friend of the enlightened one and does his or her bidding.

'The Purusha has no sorrow, no anxiety, no worry; he has no fear, no pain, no suffering. His experience is always peace and bliss. He is beyond dualities. He is perfect and self-sufficient, and therefore, always free from all afflictions. But yet, due to his proximity to Prakriti and involvement in Prakriti, many of the experiences that lie is Prakriti become superimposed upon the Purusha. And the Purusha, as it were, seems to be suffering also, undergoing all sorts of negative painful experiences—fear, anxiety, worry, sorrow, hunger, thirst and so on. The aim and objective of Yoga is to once again liberate the Purusha from this involvement and give him a state of being established in his own Self-experience. That is the state of liberation.' - Swami Chidananda


The Philosophy, Psychology and Practice of Yoga

Then another question arises. If Atman/Brahman is immovable (i think the sanskrit term is achala or stheera), then why do we see movement all around us. If its prakriti that moves, then that too should be Bahman, don't you think, since they're one and the same thing.


Prakriti as in matter,energy, space, time and causation is the grosser, varied and dynamic manifestation of the static and unitary Brahman or pure consciousness.

At the fundamental or subtlest level, it is all Brahman, One without a second.

And as Swami Vivekananda stated, " Knowledge is nothing but finding unity in the midst of diversity."

'It is true that the Upanishads have this one theme before them: "What is that knowing which we know everything else?" In modern language, the theme of the Upanishads is to find an ultimate unity of things. Knowledge is nothing but finding unity in the midst of diversity. Every science is based upon this; all human knowledge is based upon the finding of unity in the midst of diversity; and if it is the task of small fragments of human knowledge, which we call our sciences, to find unity in the midst of a few different phenomena, the task becomes stupendous when the theme before us is to find unity in the midst of this marvellously diversified universe, where prevail unnumbered differences in name and form, in matter and spirit — each thought differing from every other thought, each form differing from every other form. Yet, to harmonise these many planes and unending Lokas, in the midst of this infinite variety to find unity, is the theme of the Upanishads.' - Swami Vivekananda
 

The Crimson Universe

Active Member
@ajay0,
I have already remarked about this with examples in this post.
Does Atman travels after death in advaita vedanta?

Sorry, i completely forgot about that thread. Had to go through it all over again. So, it's actually Atman's grosser manifestations that moves around ... and yet there's the unmanifested part of Atman (from which everything springs forth) remains achala, which pervades all its grosser manifested forms. Makes sense now.

Also thanks for explaining to me what a dehi is. Now i would like to discuss a little bit about this jiva/jivatma, in order to get a proper understanding of it ... I mean, i already know that its nothing but the lower, conditioned state but i can't really tell, whether jiva/jivatma is the Dehi or is it the fragmental portion of Atman.

Here you've said that the jiva/jivatman is the individual self.
I guess by 'individual self' you meant the ""ego/dehi"" and not Atman.
If so, then jivatman should be the dehi.
Jiva or Jivatman is the individual self

................

Here too you've clearly said that, dehi=jiva.
... The subtle body, which is the body of the mind and vital energies (prana/chi), which keeps the body alive.Together with the causal body( from which it sprouts or extends from), it is the transmigrating soul or jiva
................

But in this statement of yours, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Jiva-atman is trapped in the earthly body until death, when it is reincarnated.
Here it seems that jivatman is a fragmental portion of Atman/Brahman trapped within us. Atanu said in that other thread, that there's no fragment of atman in advaita. If thats the case, then why would the avaccheda group say that there's a space trapped inside the pot ... or why would they use the term embodied then? I mean who's embodied here?


Would really appreciate it, if you could enlighten me on this matter.
 
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ameyAtmA

~ ~
Premium Member
jivAtmA.png
 
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The Crimson Universe

Active Member
Thanks for the clarification ameyAtmA. In your diagram, there's the white Atman dwelling within the coverings of the bodies. So Ramakrishna or the avaccheda theorists were right. There IS actually a fragmental atman (ghatakasha/space inside the pot). It is this spark or fragment that remains embodied. Also if it remains trapped then its obvious that it travels too with the subtle/causal bodies. And yet Atanu said in the other thread that there's no fragmental portion in advaita. Hmm.

Here's what Sivananda had to say -
It is the mind that is the center of
individuality, that individualizes and imprisons a ray of the Atman in what
is called the individual soul.

Source: Jivatman as Reflection of Paramatman, and Transmigration
 
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ameyAtmA

~ ~
Premium Member
And yet Atanu said in the other thread that there's no fragmental portion in advaita. Hmm.

Here's what Sivananda had to say -
It is the mind that is the center of
individuality, that individualizes and imprisons a ray of the Atman in what
is called the individual soul.

Both statements are correct because --- remember the multiple levels of reality --- although appearing embodied, or trapped (imprisoned in Swamiji's quote), the AtmA is a continuum of the One Consciousness - Brahman', which is appearing as the subtle-and-gross-body covering as well.

*vyAvahAric level : fragmented-- the Gurus want to explain the mechanics at the students' level
LeelA level: dual-exchange with an understanding of Oneness
*pArmArthic level : One

BG 13.16 avibhaktam cha bhUteshu vibhaktam eva cha sthitam |
bhUtabhartRU cha tadnyeyaM grAsishNu prabhavishNu cha ||

[The One to be known - tadnyeyaM - i.e. Brahman'] is continuous without the possibility of getting fragmented (avibhaktam) , but appears as if fragmented among the various living bodies (bhUteshu vibhaktam sthitam) Thus, the One to be known, nurtures the world as VishNu, annhilates it as Rudra (grAsishNu) and re-creates the world (makes it reappear) as BramhA

(just as sky is one, but appears separated into pots.)

BG 2.20 This [AtmA] is never born, never dies, eternal, ever-present, ancient. Body dies, Spirit that was in the body , lives.

BG 2.23 No weapons can cut this One, no fire can burn it, water cannot make it wet, neither can wind dry it.

NOTE: If you can't cut it there is no question of real fragments, but as long as we cannot understand that the subtle and gross bodies are just the same Brahman' appearing differently (transformed), we think in terms of pieces.

BG 2.24 That is because the One can never be cut, burned, made wet or dried. It is eternal, Omnipresent (sarvagatah:) , pervades everything, still, immovable, stable, never moving, never changing, constant.

NOTE: sarvagatah:

BG 2.25 Is invisible and unmanifest (avyakta), inconceivable, formless, without any blemish, flaw, distortion, change. Knowing this, do not grieve O Arjuna

BG 10.20 aham AtmA guDAkesha, jeeva-bhUtAshaya shtitah: |
aham Adischa madhyam cha bhUtAnAm anta eva cha ||

I am the Self (AtmA), O Arjun-who-has-conquered-sleep (GuDAkesh), situated (sthita) as the base and foundation (Ashaya) of all living beings (jeeva) and elements (bhUta).
I am their beginning, middle as well as their end.

[They start with Me, and end with Me, I am the Source and the Sink]


---------------------------------------------------------------
At the same time,

BG 15.7 mAmaivaMsho jeevaloke jeevabhUta sanAtanah: |
manah:shashThAnI indriyANi prakRuti sthAna karshati ||
The eternal AtmA making the living beings sentient, is but My part. This one, gets attracted by and entangled in the mind and 5 senses which are situated in (a result of) prakRuti - material Nature.

(this is again explained as eternal space in apparent pots)
 
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ameyAtmA

~ ~
Premium Member
An alternative or better picture -- where AtmA is the foundation rather than a trapped piece.
The white floor on which these rings are stacked , is AtmA (BG 10.20 aham AtmA.... BG 14.27 brahmaNo hi pratishThA aham...). Each ring is an added layer - called kosha , which comprises the causal, subtle and gross bodies. Layer closest to AtmA is obviously the subtlest.

annamay kosh = food sheath = gross body
prANmay kosh = breath sheath (prAN vAyu)
manomay kosh = mind sheath (mAnas)
vidnyAnmay kosh = intellect sheath (buddhi)
Anandmay kosh = bliss layer
AtmA - sacchidAnanda - which animates the being of 5 sheaths (makes it sentient)


AdhyAtma.png
 
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The Crimson Universe

Active Member
You've explained it quite beautifully here ameyAtmA.
And when they say "reflection of Atman", do they literally mean that Atman can have a reflection? I think not, coz something invisible cannot possibly have a reflection.

So does reflection mean manifestation of subtle matter?

i.e. Atman reflecting on mind ==> Atman manifesting as subtle body?
Is that it?

But then, one swami from the advaita school while explaining the jivatman said that, the subtle, causal and the reflected consciousness, (these 3) make up the entity called jivatman.

If that's the case, then reflection cannot equate to subtle/causal bodies(Atma's manifestation). Since he clearly said during his lecture that reflection is different from it's manifestion which are subtle/causal bodies.

I wonder what is meant by this reflection then.
 
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ajay0

Well-Known Member
You've explained it quite beautifully here ameyAtmA.
And when they say "reflection of Atman", do they literally mean that Atman can have a reflection? I think not, coz something invisible cannot possibly have a reflection.

So does reflection mean manifestation of subtle matter?

i.e. Atman reflecting on mind ==> Atman manifesting as subtle body?
Is that it?

But then, one swami from the advaita school while explaining the jivatman said that, the subtle, causal and the reflected consciousness, (these 3) make up the entity called jivatman.

If that's the case, then reflection cannot equate to subtle/causal bodies(Atma's manifestation). Since he clearly said during his lecture that reflection is different from it's manifestion which are subtle/causal bodies.

I wonder what is meant by this reflection then.

An insightful saying by Swami Ramakrishnanda Puri in this regard...


'Consciousness is not limited by the boundaries of the body. It only seems to be because consciousness, being so subtle, is only perceivable when it has a reflecting medium, such as the body or mind. To explain this phenomenon, the example of light is often used. We can only ‘see’ light when it bounces off something – a wall, a face, a hand, etc. This is why outer space – where there are no objects for light to reflect against – appears black, i.e. devoid of light. Yet light certainly is there. The sun’s rays that illumine life on earth must pass through outer space in order to reach here. But as there is no reflecting medium, we cannot see them. It is the same with consciousness. As stated earlier, consciousness itself can never be an object for our perception. We only can perceive it when it reflects off some medium – like the body and mind.' - Swami Ramakrishnanda Puri
 

The Crimson Universe

Active Member
An insightful saying by Swami Ramakrishnanda Puri in this regard...


'Consciousness is not limited by the boundaries of the body. It only seems to be because consciousness, being so subtle, is only perceivable when it has a reflecting medium, such as the body or mind. To explain this phenomenon, the example of light is often used. We can only ‘see’ light when it bounces off something – a wall, a face, a hand, etc. This is why outer space – where there are no objects for light to reflect against – appears black, i.e. devoid of light. Yet light certainly is there. The sun’s rays that illumine life on earth must pass through outer space in order to reach here. But as there is no reflecting medium, we cannot see them. It is the same with consciousness. As stated earlier, consciousness itself can never be an object for our perception. We only can perceive it when it reflects off some medium – like the body and mind.' - Swami Ramakrishnanda Puri

Right, it can only be percieved on the reflecting mediums.

Reflected awareness can then simply be thought of as sentiency.
We can observe sentiency only where the mediums are.

At first i thought that the phrase "reflection of Brahman" is probably used as a metaphor for "Brahman manifesting into matter -- mind/subtlebody."
I thought that the reflection itself is the reflecting medium or subtle body.

But then i realized, that Consciousness, whether original or reflected, it can never be the same thing as the upadhis/mediums, for the mediums are inert by nature and a product of Atman's illusory power.
 
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The Crimson Universe

Active Member
@ajay0, @ameyAtmA,
Today as i was going through the gita, i came across verse 16 of chapter fifteen. Under that verse, in the commentary section, i found this passage to be quite misleading -

The jivatman being an upadhi or limiting adjunct to Ishwara, the upadhi is also called the Purusha.

Jivatman can surely be considered as an upadhi, but in my opinion, jivatman should be an upadhi to Nirakara Brahman and not to the saguna Ishwara.

I mean, its nirakara brahman who manifests as the gross mind/body (upadhis) and then starts recognizing ITSELF as the mind/body (upadhis), and ends up being called as the jivatma aka jiva.

But saguna or Ishwara never thinks of himself as the upadhis. Infact its beyond maya and its products like mind/body(upadhis).
So i don't understand how jivatma can possibly be an upadhi to ishwar, when infact jivatma should be an upadhi to nirakara.
Was the commentator wrong there?

..........

Then the next point is, you can clearly see in the quoted text, that he calls this jivatma as the purusha. But then later, in that same commentary, (not included in quotes, check the image attachment for the full commentary) he says that purusha is God or the cosmic being.
According to the commentator there are two Purushas.

I'm asking this because ajay0 said a couple of days back that purusha is Brahman/Atman or the witness. But here the commentator who belongs from the advaita school says there are two purushas. One is the jiva/jivatma and the other is the cosmic being or saguna.

So do advaitins consider two different types of Purushas?
Thanks.


PSX_20181205_141315.jpg
 
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ajay0

Well-Known Member
@ajay0, @ameyAtmA,
Today as i was going through the gita, i came across verse 16 of chapter fifteen. Under that verse, in the commentary section, i found this passage to be quite misleading -



Jivatman can surely be considered as an upadhi, but in my opinion, jivatman should be an upadhi to Nirakara Brahman and not to the saguna Ishwara.

I mean, its nirakara brahman who manifests as the gross mind/body (upadhis) and then starts recognizing ITSELF as the mind/body (upadhis), and ends up being called as the jivatma aka jiva.

But saguna or Ishwara never thinks of himself as the upadhis. Infact its beyond maya and its products like mind/body(upadhis).
So i don't understand how jivatma can possibly be an upadhi to ishwar, when infact jivatma should be an upadhi to nirakara.
Was the commentator wrong there?

Yes, this is true. As per advaita, the Jivatman is an upadhi to Nirguna or Nirakara Brahman. But bhakta philosophies like Vishistadvaita and Dvaita and others usually refer Brahman to Ishwara or Saguna Brahman and do not take the impersonal Nirguna Brahman into consideration for obvious reasons.

Sri Ramakrishna is an enlightened master and understands Advaita, but he emphasizes the devotional aspect mainly in his teachings, and have referred to Brahman as in a personal sense, or Saguna Brahman over here.


Then the next point is, you can clearly see in the quoted text, that he calls this jivatma as the purusha. But then later, in that same commentary, (not included in quotes, check the image attachment for the full commentary) he says that purusha is God or the cosmic being.
According to the commentator there are two Purushas.

I'm asking this because ajay0 said a couple of days back that purusha is Brahman/Atman or the witness. But here the commentator who belongs from the advaita school says there are two purushas. One is the jiva/jivatma and the other is the cosmic being or saguna.

So do advaitins consider two different types of Purushas?
Thanks.

Sri Ramakrishna has referred to the 'cosmic Purusha' here (another name for Saguna Brahman), which is obviously different from the Purusha in the Jivatman.

Sri Ramakrishna here too uses the language of bhakti which is necessarily dualistic, to emphasize the worshipper and the worshipped.

My references to Purusha as the impersonal Nirguna Brahman have been from a strictly Advaitan or nondualistic pov.

Sri Ramakrishna used to assess the temperament and inclination of a person, and used to teach him accordingly. He taught Advaita mainly to Vivekananda due to his philosophical inclination, but emphasized bhakti in his teachings to the masses who had an emotional temperament.
 
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