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Is Jiva the same thing according to Ramanuja and Shankara?
- Thread starter The Crimson Universe
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Shantanu
Well-Known Member
That is very true: God is also sadguru in vyvaharika when one experiences duality, but not in paramarthika where the self (atman) is God itself in nondual existence.
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The Crimson Universe
Active Member
Thanks ajay0.
According to Maharshi, this hridaya or spiritual heart, which he calls consciousness dwells in the right side of the chest.
We know that consciousness is everywhere and so 'IT' cannot reside only in the chest region. Our whole body is permeated with consciousness and yet it can be felt only in the mind.
I think it is this mind, which is metaphorically referred to as the hridaya. Just like in the ghatakasha analogy, the ether inside the pot is taken as Brahman.
According to this article, hridaya is considered as manas, which is part of antahkarana or sookshma sharira.
Manas, n. mind (in its widest sense as applied to all the mental powers), intellect, intelligence, understanding, perception, sense, conscience, will, in philosophy. The internal organ or antah-karana of perception and cognition, the faculty or instrument through which thoughts enter or by which objects of sense affect the soul; in this sense manas is always regarded as distinct from atman and Purusha, 'spirit or soul' and belonging only to the body, like which it is except in the Nyay a considered perishable ; for Samkhya and Vedanta, it is sometimes joined with hridor hridaya, the heart ; with cakshus, (the eye) ; the spirit or spiritual principle, the breath or living soul which escapes from the body at death ; thought, imagination, excogitation, invention, reflection, opinion, intention, inclination, affection, desire, mood, temper, spirit,...- Abridged from Monier Monier-Williams. A Sanskrit-English Dictionary.
Source: Mind or Manas in Hinduism
Source: Mind or Manas in Hinduism
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The Brahma Sutras (2.8.19-22.) say that it is ‘atomic’ in size. It is said to reside in the cave of the heart (Brahma Sutras 2.8.24) - “The heart is interpreted to mean the buddhi, the intellect. The cave being the innermost part. See also Brahma Sutras1.3.12-13 and 2.8.18-50. “Though all-pervading,...It is manifest in the buddhi…” (Atmabodha 16.)
Source: Where does a Soul attach to the Body?
Source: Where does a Soul attach to the Body?
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As per Swami Sivananda, (who commented on Shankara's commentaries on the Brahma Sutras) said that the hridaya is the city of Brahman or seat of Brahman (Brahmapuri).
And i think, it is this seat called mind or antahkarana, where Brahman shines.
The word ‘Brahma’ in Brahmapuri shows the reference to Brahman only. Even if you take the word ('Brahma') as referring to Jiva, the teaching relates to Brahman who is realised in the heart which is the Brahmapuri (the city of Soul or Brahman).
Source: BrahmaSutra by Sivananda
I've uploaded the ebook here.
The above passage has been taken from page 89 of the ebook
(ch.1 section 3 ... verse 13 and 14).
Below is another verse from page 96 (ch.1 section 3 ... verse 25) where it says the following-
Brahman is said to be of the size of a thumb, though He is
all-pervading, because He is realisable in the limited chamber of the heart of a man.
Source: BrahmaSutra by Sivananda
I've uploaded the ebook here.
The above passage has been taken from page 89 of the ebook
(ch.1 section 3 ... verse 13 and 14).
Below is another verse from page 96 (ch.1 section 3 ... verse 25) where it says the following-
Brahman is said to be of the size of a thumb, though He is
all-pervading, because He is realisable in the limited chamber of the heart of a man.
Here, according to Shankara or Sivananda, Brahman is separate from hridaya. The Hridaya is the city or seat of Brahman and not Brahman itself. :=)
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ajay0
Well-Known Member
Focussing on the heart-centre or focussing on the midpoint between the eye-brows are practices aimed at purifying the Consciousness. But they are still considered by Ramana to be less effective than pure inquiry into the nature of Atman.
The Yoga Vasistha by Rishi Vasishta also considers inquiry, along with Satsang, self-control and contentment, as the four paths to liberation.
The Yoga Vasistha by Rishi Vasishta also considers inquiry, along with Satsang, self-control and contentment, as the four paths to liberation.
Shantanu
Well-Known Member
IMO, the metaphorical heart in advaita is situated at the centre of the chest, that is in the lungs. This is because when one breathes (respires) one has the sign of life that is experienced. When we breathe we are alive as the life force of Consciousness energy. The soul force of consciousness energy is located in the mind.
ajay0
Well-Known Member
There is more clarity on the subject in this article....
Heart and Mind
Ramana: "The jiva is said to remain in the Heart in deep sleep, and in the brain in the waking state. Heart is not the muscular cavity which propels blood. It denotes in hthe Vedas and the scriptures the centre whence the notion 'I' springs. Does it spring from the ball of flesh? It does not, but from somewhere within us, from the centre of our being. The 'I' has no location. Everything is the Self. There is nothing but the Self. So the Heart must be said to be the entire body as well as the universe, conceived as 'I'. But to help the abhyasi we have to indicate a definite place in the universe, or the body, dor it. So this Heart is pointed out as the seat of the Self. But in truh we are everywhere; we are all that is, and there is nothing else".
Devotee: "Should I meditate on the right chest in order to meditate on the Heart?"
Bhagavan: "The Heart is not physical. Meditation should not be on the right or the left. It should be on the Self (Awareness). Everyone knows "I am". It is neight within nor without, neither on the right nor the left: "I am" - that is all".
Heart and Mind
Ramana: "The jiva is said to remain in the Heart in deep sleep, and in the brain in the waking state. Heart is not the muscular cavity which propels blood. It denotes in hthe Vedas and the scriptures the centre whence the notion 'I' springs. Does it spring from the ball of flesh? It does not, but from somewhere within us, from the centre of our being. The 'I' has no location. Everything is the Self. There is nothing but the Self. So the Heart must be said to be the entire body as well as the universe, conceived as 'I'. But to help the abhyasi we have to indicate a definite place in the universe, or the body, dor it. So this Heart is pointed out as the seat of the Self. But in truh we are everywhere; we are all that is, and there is nothing else".
Devotee: "Should I meditate on the right chest in order to meditate on the Heart?"
Bhagavan: "The Heart is not physical. Meditation should not be on the right or the left. It should be on the Self (Awareness). Everyone knows "I am". It is neight within nor without, neither on the right nor the left: "I am" - that is all".
Shantanu
Well-Known Member
The 'self' is distinct from the atman (consciousness energy) and Brahman (total energy) in that the word self describes the jiva as 'I' or 'You'. This takes different forms depending on the individual constitutions, beliefs and perceptions and manifest as the jiva's awareness. So Ramana was right that the heart (present metaphorically at the bottom of the lungs in human beings) is where the notion 'I' springs from.
Of course that is all in vyvaharika or visible reality: in paramarthika there is nothing but God.
Of course that is all in vyvaharika or visible reality: in paramarthika there is nothing but God.
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The Crimson Universe
Active Member
@ajay0, @ameyAtmA, @atanu,
How do you think Atman witnesses everything?
In one of the Gita verses Krishna says that Atman, the universal consciousness simply witnesses but performs no action.
Does that mean, Atman needs to have a mind/body to witness everything or can 'IT' witness everything even being present in the sky or in the air around us (in a non-jiva or non-embodied state)?
We all know that Atman is everywhere. Can this Atman, witness everything when its present in the sky, air, rocks, outer space etc. or does it witness only through the mind and body?
Thank you.
How do you think Atman witnesses everything?
In one of the Gita verses Krishna says that Atman, the universal consciousness simply witnesses but performs no action.
Does that mean, Atman needs to have a mind/body to witness everything or can 'IT' witness everything even being present in the sky or in the air around us (in a non-jiva or non-embodied state)?
We all know that Atman is everywhere. Can this Atman, witness everything when its present in the sky, air, rocks, outer space etc. or does it witness only through the mind and body?
Thank you.
Shantanu
Well-Known Member
What evidence do you have that Atman is the universal consciousness that witnesses: to witness means to live. The atman in a rock does not live, does it?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Though, my views will not satisfy you, but still .. Brahman has a body. It is the whole universe. It does not need eyes or mind, it knows what is happening in every part of its body precisely (through the four fundamental forces of nature and gravity). It lets it happen because it is uninvolved.
Sanskrit Dictionary for Spoken Sanskrit, Sanskrit Dictionary for Spoken Sanskrit, Sanskrit Dictionary for Spoken Sanskrit
"This whole universe is Brahman. In tranquility, let one worship It, as Tajjalan (that from which he came forth, as that into which he will be dissolved, as that in which he breathes). - Chandogya Upanishad 3.14.1
Man is a creature of his Kratumaya (क्रतुमयः, will, purpose). Let him therefore have for himself this will, this purpose: The intelligent, whose body is imbued with life-principle, whose form is light, whose thoughts are driven by truth, whose self is like space (invisible but ever present), from whom all works, all desires, all sensory feelings encompassing this whole world, the silent, the unconcerned, this is me, my Self, my Soul within my heart. - Chandogya Upanishad 3.14.1 – 3.14.3
This is my Soul in the innermost heart, greater than the earth, greater than the aerial space, greater than these worlds. This Soul, this Self of mine is that Brahman. - Chandogya Upanishad 3.14.3 – 3.14.4
Knowledge is the eye of all that, and on knowledge it is founded. Knowledge is the eye of the world, and knowledge, the foundation. Brahman is knowing. - Aitereya Upanishad, Hymns 3.3"
Brahman - Wikipedia
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ajay0
Well-Known Member
Brahman or pure consciousness is the fundamental state from which Prakriti or nature in the form of matter, energy, space, time and causation emerged in its varied forms of multiplicity.
Maya consists in focusing only on the varied multiplicity without understanding or realizing experientially the common unitary bond of Brahman or pure consciousness pervading everything.
Brahman is a witness to everything without getting involved, obviously.
The witness perspective is relevant from a human or personal/individual standpoint, since we are individuals, and that is why we are projecting the same on Atman/Brahman.
Brahman is static and is not engaged in any action. It is only its manifestation through Prakriti that is engaged in dynamic action.
This is elaborated in the article below.
Karma in Advaita Vedanta
Shantanu
Well-Known Member
One could say that everything (Brahman) emerged from Consciousness, if one defines what Consciousness is: does it include Paramatma? or Is Paramatma Consciousness Itself? If Consciousness includes Paramatma it means God is created by Consciousness, another Entity that is higher than God. If Paramatma is Consciousness Itself, why do we need another word for God unless we say that God is a property of Consciousness.
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Shrimad BhAgvat mahApurAN 1.2.11
vadanti tat-tattvavidas-tattvaM yajdnyAnadvayam |
bramheti paramAtmeti bhagavAn iti shabdate ||
The wise knowers of divine principles, call that highest knowledge, where there is oneness of the knower and the known, as tattva - the [highest divine] principle. Some of them describe this divine Being, principle and substance as Brahman', some call it paramAtmA, and some others call the same as BhagavAn.
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I have contemplated on my experience and agree with this shloka. This is why I say that God is the formless Being who takes most beautiful forms at will.
He is tattva-principle : Foundation and source or all infallible laws as observed
He is Being : existence, consciousness, bliss, love (prem)
As BhagavAn He is not only shaDaishwarya-sampanna (6 divine qualities of wisdom, strength, beauty, renunciation, wealth, divine-perfection (oppulence-siddhi)) , He is Love, Integrity, and all divine qualities - because He is the potential database from which the world inherits these qualities.
As paramAtmA He pervades all hearts to be close to all - like the Sun pervades the sky with its rays.
It is the same One. The same One is the tattva, is Being, is consciousness, is the Highest Self of all, is the most beautiful Friend of all. That One lives in this heart to drive the living being to the realization, that I am Being. I am tranquil, peaceful, blissful.
He walks with the mystic to show the true nature. Who the I is.
Walk with Mukunda - the One who gives bliss, freedom, love, knowledge and vanquishes ignorance to show - look you are Me.
He walks with the mystic to show the true nature. Who the I is.
Walk with Mukunda - the One who gives bliss, freedom, love, knowledge and vanquishes ignorance to show - look you are Me.
Shantanu
Well-Known Member
Well, that is certainly a very thoughtful presentation: I am lost for words. I know from personal experience over 20 years how Great He is and your words echo that experience. Thank you ameyAtma.
Shantanu
Well-Known Member
I am God living a human life, He is me I am Him. There is no difference as I live out my life. Is that the same for everyone?
Not yet, as long as some identify with the body and mind.
However, ultimately, when one realizes they are not the body, not the local mind, and give up doer-ship (I am not the doer of actions, prakRuti is) , reach vairAgya (dispassionate renunciation). They cut the upside-down tree-of-saMsAra of BG chapter 15, and find the paramAtmA in the heart. It leads to this realization.
That 2nd post was generally made for everyone.
I am not the mind, but the mind can be turned into a divine instrument.
I am not thoughts, but thoughts can be channeled, beautiful and pure.
I am not words, but the best words can be used to make a difference.
The key is to not have egocentric agendas.
BG 5.13 The one in the body (dehi) who has their mind under control, is internally renounced, and has the knowledge to sift out spirit from matter, simply lives blissfully (sukham) in the home called body, internally giving up doer-ship of all actions (karmANi manasA sannyAsasthe).
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*P.S. : To give up doer-ship internally does not mean 'do nothing' .
It means to identify who and what is acting. It is the material nature of three modes that does the work. It is the false-ego that falsely claims "I did this" "This happened because of me" "I took this decision" ... whereas it is the ParaBrahman' that is all, the be-all and end-all, and it is its nature that does and acts. There is no need to take credit for what is supplied. Instant method to give up ego.
Why give up ego? To realize the true nature of the Divine which is the true nature of oneSelf.
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If one pursues the Seer-Seen discrimination till the end, one finds that any 'seen' object is not the 'seer'. Body-Mind, wherein physical or mental actions occur, are the 'seen' and not the 'seer'. After discarding all objects that can be pointed as 'this' or 'that' or 'it', as the 'seen' (object), what remains is the 'Seer' -- the Atman.
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Shantanu
Well-Known Member
One thing is for certain: Paramatma is the seer: when one has transcended the gunas by surrendering to the Paramatma one attains Paramatma and sees everything through one's imagination and one's senses. One is then all the God one needs to survive in this universe.
When one has not surrendered to Paramatman, the jiva (body-mind) is the seer, and the atman is the seen.
When one has not surrendered to Paramatman, the jiva (body-mind) is the seer, and the atman is the seen.
shivsomashekhar
Well-Known Member
If the seen goes, so does the seer. If there is nothing to be seen, then there is no meaning to the idea of a seer. We can tap dance around this forever, but it does not change simple logic.
You cannot separate the two. If one goes, the other goes.
And this is why I say your idea of Advaita includes Dvaita (oneness-difference).