Is Jiva the same thing according to Ramanuja and Shankara?

[The Crimson Universe]

@Shantanu, If you are really God in flesh (God in human form), then i'm sure you can even raise the dead, like how Jesus raised Lazarus or you can lift a mountain with ease by your little finger, like how Krishna did.

 

[Shantanu]

@Shantanu, If you are really God in flesh (God in human form), then i'm sure you can even raise the dead, like how Jesus raised Lazarus or you can lift a mountain with ease by your little finger, like how Krishna did.

You have not understood advaita.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

@Shantanu, I'm familiar with the advaita that Shankara preached. The one that ajay0, atanu, George, AmeyAtmA believes in. Not sure which one you're following.

I'm still in the learning phase. (Its been only a few months since i was introduced to this philosophy). And there's great joy in learning. :=) Too bad there's no guru where i stay. Due to this reason my progress is slow. I'm getting all the answers to my questions from online forums coz there are hardly any advaitins where i stay. Also, i have to ask the same questions twice or thrice to make sure i'm on the right path. To make sure the topics i'm dealing with are accepted by mainstream advaitins. I know its a lengthy process but its worth it. Thanks to the members of this forum.

 

[Shantanu]

@Shantanu, I'm familiar with the advaita that Shankara preached. The one that ajay0, atanu, George, AmeyAtmA believes in. Not sure which one you're following.

I'm still in the learning phase. (Its been only a few months since i was introduced to this philosophy). And there's great joy in learning. :=) Too bad there's no guru where i stay. Due to this reason my progress is slow. I'm getting all the answers to my questions from online forums coz there are hardly any advaitins where i stay. Also, i have to ask the same questions twice or thrice to make sure i'm on the right path. To make sure the topics i'm dealing with are accepted by mainstream advaitins. I know its a lengthy process but its worth it. Thanks to the members of this forum.

Greg: I am a self-taught advaitist.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Greg: I am a self-taught advaitist.

No one is "self-taught" in a school or philosophy. One's knowledge is either learned through research or through a teacher, or one has simply made things up as they went.

 

[Shantanu]

No one is "self-taught" in a school or philosophy. One's knowledge is either learned through research or through a teacher, or one has simply made things up as they went.

I am unique then.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

Me and ameyAtmA were discussing on prana airs (prana vayus), on another forum (HDF) whether the pranas transmigrate with the subtle body or do they get absorbed in the atmosphere. He said that it gets absorbed in atmosphere, but i found texts based on the scripture vedanta sara that says they remain part of subtle body even during transmigration.

The problem is, my last post (which i posted there almost two days ago) has not yet been approved by the mods. There every single posts are approved by the mods before they are being published and sometimes the mods are too lazy to even do their jobs. Due to this reason, many important posts goes unpublished. So i thought, why not post it here, since ameyAtmA is active here as well.

Here are a few verses from 'vedanta sara' scripture.

VS-88: These five prana airs or vital forces together with organs of actions (karmendriyas) constitute the "vital sheath" (Pranamaya Kosha, प्राणमय-कोश).

VS-89: Among these sheaths, the intelligent sheath (Vigyanamaya Kosha) is endowed with the power of knowledge (of agency), the mental sheath (Manomaya Kosha) is endowed with will-power or desire (of instrumentality), and the vital sheath (Pranamaya Kosha) is endowed with activity (of product). This division has been made according to their respective functions. These 3 sheaths (Koshas) together constitutes the subtle body.


Here's an excerpt from that article -
Considering all these, sheath of intellect is taken here as a representative of transmigrating Jiva. However, integrity and subjectivity of experience where illusion of doer-ship and consumer-ship is formed, takes place in the mind-sheath. Considering this, it is also possible to take mind sheath together with sheath of intellect as the representation of transmigrating Jiva. Even the 'sheath of vital forces" (Pranamaya Kosha) is said to be included in the transmigration of Jiva as a prop so that the Linga-Sharira justifies its name as a marker of Jiva.

Source- Nature of Subtle-Bodies - Advaita

I'm looking forward to ameyAtmA's reply on this matter. Others can post their opinions as well. :=)

 

[Aupmanyav]

@Shantanu, If you are really God in flesh (God in human form), then i'm sure you can even raise the dead, like how Jesus raised Lazarus or you can lift a mountain with ease by your little finger, like how Krishna did.

Greg, not just Shantanu, but you too are Brahman. But remember, Brahman is uninvolved and has no need to do anything. Why would Brahman raise dead or lift a mountain on its little finger (if it has one)? Krishna did not do any such thing. It was only 'maya' which enveloped the 'Vrijavasis' as also Indra.

Of course, I understand that your views differ from mine - which is no problem. That is not unheard of in Hinduism.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

@Aupmanyav, Yes we are all Brahman, but we are under ignorance (under the avidya aspect of maya) and so we are nothing but ordinary jivas. Whereas, terms like 'God' or 'Avatara' are used for those, who are totally or partially above the aspect of maya.

Upon moksha, we advaitins can become one with the nirakara brahman, but we can never become one with the saguna brahman, who (as the dualists claim) keeps HIS own separate identity. We can neither merge with Vishnu nor we can ever possess his powers of creation and destruction of the cosmos.

 

[Shantanu]

Greg, not just Shantanu, but you too are Brahman. But remember, Brahman is uninvolved and has no need to do anything. Why would Brahman raise dead or lift a mountain on its little finger (if it has one)? Krishna did not do any such thing. It was only 'maya' which enveloped the 'Vrijavasis' as also Indra.

Of course, I understand that your views differ from mine - which is no problem. That is not unheard of in Hinduism.

I truly believe that God as Saguna God has taught me this.

 

[ajay0]

Yes we are all Brahman, but we are under ignorance (under the avidya aspect of maya) and so we are nothing but ordinary jivas. Whereas, terms like 'God' or 'Avatara' are used for those, who are totally or partially above the aspect of maya.

Upon moksha, we advaitins can become one with the nirakara brahman, but we can never become one with the saguna brahman, who (as the dualists claim) keeps HIS own separate identity. We can neither merge with Vishnu nor we can ever possess his powers of creation and destruction of the cosmos.

Yes, this is true. Swami Narayananda and Mahatma Gandhi had also warned of the perils of labelling ourselves as Jivanmukta, God or Brahman without the necessary foundation or spadework.


'Apart from these real Jivan-Muktas, there are some Sadhakas who take up Jnana-Yoga. They read treatises on the subject and by constant reading they come to a mental understanding of the nature of the Self or Atman. But these people do not attain Samadhi and cannot gain real wisdom. Mere book knowledge is always very shallow. They do not gain the permanent, steady state of the mind and perfect Wisdom which come only after Nirvikalpa Samadhi. But these people are too hasty to think that they have gained True Wisdom and begin to call themselves Jivan-Muktas.'

-- Swami Narayananda ( A practical Guide to samadhi )

 

[The Crimson Universe]

Yes, this is true. Swami Narayananda and Mahatma Gandhi had also warned of the perils of labelling ourselves as Jivanmukta, God or Brahman without the necessary foundation or spadework.


'Apart from these real Jivan-Muktas, there are some Sadhakas who take up Jnana-Yoga. They read treatises on the subject and by constant reading they come to a mental understanding of the nature of the Self or Atman. But these people do not attain Samadhi and cannot gain real wisdom. Mere book knowledge is always very shallow. They do not gain the permanent, steady state of the mind and perfect Wisdom which come only after Nirvikalpa Samadhi. But these people are too hasty to think that they have gained True Wisdom and begin to call themselves Jivan-Muktas.'

-- Swami Narayananda ( A practical Guide to samadhi )

Right. And may i know what happens on videha mukti (mukti after death)?
The inner sheaths like subtle and causal bodies, do they stop existing on videha mukti and then only the omnipresent Atman remains??

 

[Shantanu]

I know that my departed mothers visited me when I was going through a lot of material difficulties in my struggle amid persecution in the United Kingdom, but I attributed that to God visiting me and appearing as though mothers had come because I was a scientist I refused to believe any 'mumbo-jumbo'.

Your query renews my question on whether the departed souls can visit dear ones like my mothers did for me. I appears to me now that God does not wish to be a Personal God to us humans once we have become Saguna God and that so these souls are our connection to the afterworld in some shape or form.

 

[ajay0]

Right. And may i know what happens on videha mukti (mukti after death)?
The inner sheaths like subtle and causal bodies, do they stop existing on videha mukti and then only the omnipresent Atman remains??

Videha mukti - Wikipedia

Moksha or liberation, alive or without the gross body, always involves the elimination of the samskaras/vasanas / unconscious impressions that are stored in the causal body, and the causal body is the seed of the subtle and gross bodies.

So yeah, only the Atman or pure consciousness remains.

 

[Aupmanyav]

@Aupmanyav, Yes we are all Brahman, but we are under ignorance (under the avidya aspect of maya) and so we are nothing but ordinary jivas. Whereas, terms like 'God' or 'Avatara' are used for those, who are totally or partially above the aspect of maya.

Upon moksha, we advaitins can become one with the nirakara brahman, but we can never become one with the saguna brahman, who (as the dualists claim) keeps HIS own separate identity. We can neither merge with Vishnu nor we can ever possess his powers of creation and destruction of the cosmos.

What is ordinary and what is not ordinary when everything is Brahman. As far as Advaita goes, if it is anything other than Brahman, then it is 'maya' and 'avidya'. Whether anyone gets understanding (jnana) or not, we are still Brahman. An Advaitin does not know Shiva or Vishnu. As I said, Advaita is a simple, straight-forward philosophy.

 

[ajay0]

A great essay on the same by Swami Sivananda....

Moksha Gita

Brahman is distinct from the gross, subtle and causal bodies. He is the soul of all. He is the inner ruler of all. He is eternally free. He is without action, and without motion. - Swami Sivananda

 

[The Crimson Universe]

Videha mukti - Wikipedia

Moksha or liberation, alive or without the gross body, always involves the elimination of the samskaras/vasanas / unconscious impressions that are stored in the causal body, and the causal body is the seed of the subtle and gross bodies.

So yeah, only the Atman or pure consciousness remains.

So after videha mukti, there remains no personality or individuality right?
There would remain no spark of light (jivas) in higher lokas after videha mukti. There would be no swami xyz sitting in higher lokas like tapaloka, satyaloka etc. absorbed in meditation after videha mukti. Am i right?

If such is the case, then do u think Vivekananda or Ramakrishna attained complete videha mukti?
I'm asking this because, both of them said they would again come back (reincarnate). But then, if they again come back, then that would mean, they didn't attain complete videha mukti and must be dwelling in some higher lokas and when the time is right, they would come down in earthly bodies. This is my opinion though and i could be wrong.

Many hindoos hold onto the view that if the enlightened swamis want, they can again come down in flesh bodies.

But my point is, in order to manifest again in earthly bodies, there should remain a certain amount of desire(vasanas) and ego as well (which are part of subtle/causal body).


So does this mean, that after videha mukti, the subtle/causal sheaths of enlightened swamis are not completely destroyed, just so that, they could retain a bit of vasanas, in order to again reincarnate here on earth? Is that how things work after videha mukti?

Thanks.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So after videha mukti, there remains no personality or individuality right?
There would remain no spark of light (jivas) in higher lokas after videha mukti. There would be no swami xyz sitting in higher lokas like tapaloka, satyaloka etc. absorbed in meditation after videha mukti. Am i right?

If such is the case, then do u think Vivekananda or Ramakrishna attained complete videha mukti?
I'm asking this because, both of them said they would again come back (reincarnate). But then, if they again come back, then that would mean, ..

Even after 'Videha Mukti', personality remains. The difference is that the person knows what is what. Yeah, meditation is no more required. The person has 'arrived thus' (Tatha āgata), or the person is 'thus gone' (Tatha gata). IMHO, both (the Swmis) attained 'videha mukti', through bhakti and jnana. As for 'coming back', that means we go somewhere. But we do not go anywhere. What constitutes us, remains in this very world - in a different form.

BG 2.12: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
BG 2.13: As the embodied continuously (seems to) pass, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, it similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change.
Embodied: Brahman, Body: Not necessarily human .. any. [STRIKE]Hindoo[/STRIKE]: That is an old colonial spelling. the correct one is 'Hindu'.

 

[ajay0]

So after videha mukti, there remains no personality or individuality right?

After death, there is no gross body, so there cannot be a manifest personality or individuality. So I cannot comment on it.

After enlightenment while living, the small personality of the ego or lower self will be replaced by the Self or pure consciousness.

In the enlightened masters I met, the ugliness of the small personality or ego was not there. The ego with its cravings and aversions manifest as greed, lust, competitiveness, hatred, jealousy and other vices was not there. Instead there was grace, innocence, compassion and peaceful, loving vibes.

The personality of these masters were very pleasant and ethereal.

There would remain no spark of light (jivas) in higher lokas after videha mukti. There would be no swami xyz sitting in higher lokas like tapaloka, satyaloka etc. absorbed in meditation after videha mukti. Am i right?

There is reference to such instances in Paramahamsa Yogananda's 'Autobiography of a Yogi'.

If such is the case, then do u think Vivekananda or Ramakrishna attained complete videha mukti?

Ramakrishna was enlightened much before his death.

Many hindoos hold onto the view that if the enlightened swamis want, they can again come down in flesh bodies.

There are some instances of such examples for the purpose of teaching or instruction and so on.

But my point is, in order to manifest again in earthly bodies, there should remain a certain amount of desire(vasanas) and ego as well (which are part of subtle/causal body).

The Patanjali Yoga sutras illustrates the numerous psychic powers one gains through control of the mind. There is no need for vasanas and desires for the yogi to manifest an earthly body for the purpose of teaching.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

Is it true that jiva is beginingless?
I know that maya which is brahman's power, is no doubt beginingless. But i came upon a post on HDF where the OP (original poster) stated that jiva and maya both are beginingless.

How can jiva (the subtle/causal body) be eternal or beginingless, when jivahood is temporary. Once moksha is attained, jivahood or the inner sheaths, ceases to exist ... If it can have an end, then it too must have an origin or beginning, right?

Here is that thread on HDF where the OP says jiva is beginingless.
Locus of Avidya
Read the first few sentences. There you will find him saying that jiva is beginingless.