Is Judaism the same as Aryanism?

[Lars]

In context to "chosen ones" mentality. Its also definition of racism at play. Like you would agree hating Nazis or Aryanism doesnt mean you hate Germans?. Same way one doesnt hate Hebrews, but just racist ideology.

But the idea of insiders and outsiders does seem very apparent. Think only difference is Germans were better at fighting

 

[dybmh]

Perhaps it's useful to note that the idea of "chosen" is really just a tiny aspect of a large religion. Many people, Jews included, find it objectionable.

 

[Harel13]

Depends. Think Aryans believe every nation in the world has a purpose to make the world a better place and that the Jews' purpose is to teach the word of God?

 

[exchemist]

In context to "chosen ones" mentality. Its also definition of racism at play. Like you would agree hating Nazis or Aryanism doesnt mean you hate Germans?. Same way one doesnt hate Hebrews, but just racist ideology.

But the idea of insiders and outsiders does seem very apparent. Think only difference is Germans were better at fighting

I suggest it would be more diplomatic to ask some of the Jews here to explain the idea of the chosen people, rather than making potentially offensive comparisons to the ideology that killed six million of them.

 

[Lars]

I suggest it would be more diplomatic to ask some of the Jews here to explain the idea of the chosen people, rather than making potentially offensive comparisons to the ideology that killed six million of them.

Well from my short memory of the bible. It brags often how outsiders will fall for Israel or prophesies of their fall etc.

Edit: Some source from Ezekiel to use some source on it
Ezekiel 39 Bible Gateway passage: Ezekiel 39 - New International Version
39 “Son of man, prophesy against Gog and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince ofa]">[a] Meshek and Tubal. 2 I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. 3 Then I will strike your bow from your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand. 4 On the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and all your troops and the nations with you. I will give you as food to all kinds of carrion birds and to the wild animals. 5 You will fall in the open field, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. 6 I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am the Lord.

In context, Gog and Magog is apocalyptic about dishonest or bad nations is my guess. But you get what i mean

It just seems very much like a early version of "Aryanism". I dont justify what nazis did, but they had to get their ideas from somebody is all i mean. But the atrocities were horrible.

If i had to be the bad guy, i simply would be dictator for 2 years, and have them in jail and just have this delusional idea of chosen race "Aryans", and avoid shooting escapees, at best leg shot, but in general just have them be recaptured or something. And after 2 years i would declare how "Aryanism like Judaism practically are racist ideologies of chosen ones and be clear of how bad they are, and that Germany should work with developing nations to become a democracy". Basically rather than the mass genocide horror that happend in nazi germany during 30s and 45.

But then again, i wonder even as a dictator if that would work?. But i would be at best seen as a jerk. Thats what i wanted history books of me, if the idea was to prove a point.

 

[exchemist]

Well from my short memory of the bible. It brags often how outsiders will fall for Israel or prophesies of their fall etc.

Edit: Some source from Ezekiel to use some source on it
Ezekiel 39 Bible Gateway passage: Ezekiel 39 - New International Version
39 “Son of man, prophesy against Gog and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince ofa]">[a] Meshek and Tubal. 2 I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. 3 Then I will strike your bow from your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand. 4 On the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and all your troops and the nations with you. I will give you as food to all kinds of carrion birds and to the wild animals. 5 You will fall in the open field, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. 6 I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am the Lord.

It just seems very much like a early version of "Aryanism". I dont justify what nazis did, but they had to get their ideas from somebody is all i mean. But the atrocities were horrible.

If i had to be the bad guy, i simply would be dictator for 2 years, and have them in jail and just have this delusional idea of chosen race "Aryans", and avoid shooting escapees, at best leg shot, but in general just have them be recaptured or something. And after 2 years i would declare how "Aryanism like Judaism practically are racist ideologies of chosen ones and be clear of how bad they are, and that Germany should work with developing nations to become a democracy". Basically rather than the mass genocide horror that happend in nazi germany during 30s and 45.

But then again, i wonder even as a dictator if that would work?. But i would be at best seen as a jerk. Thats what i wanted history books of me, if the idea was to prove a point.

OK I see, sort of, where you are coming from. Yes, it's true that the Old Testament does contain a fair amount of what one could call nationalism, or triumphalism, to do with the God of Israel supporting them in military conflicts etc. against those with other gods. But I don't recall anything about these other peoples being described as inferior beings. So while there is a good deal of religious superiority, I don't think there is any racial superiority, or very little.

More importantly, this is going on the Old Testament itself, written, as it was, over a period of thousands of years and a very long time ago, when people's ideas about such things were much cruder than today. Whereas Aryanism is a modern invention, dating from the end of the c.19th, drawing on pseudoscientific ideas.

So, to be fair, I think you should ask how modern Judaism interprets such sentiments in the Old Testament.

 

[Lars]

OK I see, sort of, where you are coming from. Yes, it's true that the Old Testament does contain a fair amount of what one could call nationalism, or triumphalism, to do with the God of Israel supporting them in military conflicts etc. against those with other gods. But I don't recall anything about these other peoples being described as inferior beings. So while there is a good deal of religious superiority, I don't think there is any racial superiority, or very little.

More importantly, this is going on the Old Testament itself, written, as it was, over a period of thousands of years and a very long time ago, when people's ideas about such things were much cruder than today. Whereas Aryanism is a modern invention, dating from the end of the c.19th, drawing on pseudoscientific ideas.

So, to be fair, I think you should ask how modern Judaism interprets such sentiments in the Old Testament.

But wouldnt that be like suggesting to ask Aryanist supporters of what they think about it? Interms of reinterpretation?

Thing is race in this context is bloodline. Which i think is how Nazi Germany thought like too. Even saying that Han Chinese and Japanese were decendents of Aryans according to wikipedia atleast.
Nazi racial theories - Wikipedia

 

[Rival]

But wouldnt that be like suggesting to ask Aryanist supporters of what they think about it? Interms of reinterpretation?

Thing is race in this context is bloodline. Which i think is how Nazi Germany thought like too. Even saying that Han Chinese and Japanese were decendents of Aryans according to wikipedia atleast.
Nazi racial theories - Wikipedia

You are aware that there are converts of all races to Judaism?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But the idea of insiders and outsiders does seem very apparent. Think only difference is Germans were better at fighting

So you're saying that the only relevant difference between Judaism and the Nazi ideology that fashioned the Shoah was that "Germans were better at fighting"?

 

[exchemist]

But wouldnt that be like suggesting to ask Aryanist supporters of what they think about it? Interms of reinterpretation?

Thing is race in this context is bloodline. Which i think is how Nazi Germany thought like too. Even saying that Han Chinese and Japanese were decendents of Aryans according to wikipedia atleast.
Nazi racial theories - Wikipedia

Not really. My point is that if you hold up ancient scripture to the light of modern civic standards, you will find it wanting. Just read St. Paul about women, for instance.

Your thread title does not talk about the Old Testament vs. Aryanism. It talks about Judaism, which is a current, fairly widely practised religion, followed by people who take a full place in the modern world. So you need to find out how modern Judaism deals with "exceptionalist" passages in the OT that seem to give the Israelites, or the Jews, a special place, in order to make any such comparison fair. A good deal of re-interpretation of scripture goes on in most religions, over the centuries.

 

[dybmh]

It brags often how outsiders will fall for Israel or prophesies of their fall etc.

But.... it **much much more** often implores the Jewish people to follow the commandments. The overwhelming role of the Jewish people as described in scripture is observance of the law, not conquest.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I thought technically they were not chosen but had to strive to be chosen, even in ancient times. This is something that various missionaries to the Jews bring up often unless I'm mistaken. Am I incorrect?
[Exo 19:5 NIV] 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession...

My understanding was that it was that anyone who joined could also strive to be chosen, no matter what nationality they were from. They would be fully converted, regardless of past affiliations. Was this not the case? So then 'Chosen' is not a finger pointing at some people but is a finger pointing at a circle which people may enter if they choose. You step into the circle to be chosen.


But what about aryanism? That is purely a breeding distinction. Am I incorrect?

 

[Lars]

You are aware that there are converts of all races to Judaism?

Its very hard to do, and you are discouraged from it. But i have heard of it

 

[Lars]

I thought technically they were not chosen but had to strive to be chosen, even in ancient times. This is something that various missionaries to the Jews bring up often unless I'm mistaken. Am I incorrect?
[Exo 19:5 NIV] 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession...

My understanding was that it was that anyone who joined could also strive to be chosen, no matter what nationality they were from. They would be fully converted, regardless of past affiliations. Was this not the case? So then 'Chosen' is not a finger pointing at some people but is a finger pointing at a circle which people may enter if they choose. You step into the circle to be chosen.


But what about aryanism? That is purely a breeding distinction. Am I incorrect?

Gonna look into it. But thanks for that information!

Question, but whats your view on Ben Shapiro? I sometimes watch him. But i avoid politics recently. But i tend to stay tuned, til 2024 atleast.

5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,
Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 19:5 - New International Version

The quote you did was a little misleading, here it is.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I haven't heard this "chosen people" thing since I left the Church.

Its very hard to do, and you are discouraged from it. But i have heard of it

There's been several on this forum.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Question, but whats your view on Ben Shapiro? I sometimes watch him. But i avoid politics recently. But i tend to stay tuned, til 2024 atleast.

His name is in headlines, but I am not much aware of who that is. I think he is someone that does shows, interviews and writes books. He has a show I think.

The quote you did was a little misleading, here it is.

I should have explicitly suggested looking at the context of the verse. What I did was use three dots indicating that the verse was incomplete and used no quotation marks to suggest that people look the surrounding verses up.

 

[exchemist]

Gonna look into it. But thanks for that information!

Question, but whats your view on Ben Shapiro? I sometimes watch him. But i avoid politics recently. But i tend to stay tuned, til 2024 atleast.

5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,
Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 19:5 - New International Version

The quote you did was a little misleading, here it is.

How was this misleading? All this says is that the people who follow God's law will be specially treasured, though the whole earth is God's property. Nothing here about racial superiority.

And what on earth has this Shapiro character got to do with anything in this thread?

 

[Lars]

How was this misleading? All this says is that the people who follow God's law will be specially treasured, though the whole earth is God's property. Nothing here about racial superiority.

And what on earth has this Shapiro character got to do with anything in this thread?

What i mean is, its not really specific that this relates to Goyim aka non jews. It just says god fortune happens if you keep the pact with God

 

[exchemist]

What i mean is, its not really specific that this relates to Goyim aka non jews. It just says god fortune happens if you keep the pact with God

Yes, but keepers of the Mosaic covenant are Jews, surely? That is what it means to be a Jew, so far as I am aware.

And Ben Shapiro?

 

[RabbiO]

Its very hard to do, and you are discouraged from it. But i have heard of it

So now we know that your knowledge of Judaism would fit into a thimble and still leave room for a finger. What else should we know about you?

(@Jayhawker Soule - I know. My frustration is showing)