Is karma real?

[SomeRandom]

The notion of karma you're probably playing with is a caricature. Nonetheless it's not hard to see how the idea of karma can result in the social fatalism used to justify the Hindu caste system.

Be a good little untouchable and your next incarnation will be far more auspicious.

Do you have any idea just how complex the Hindu caste system actually is? I'm half Indian and I can't make heads nor tails of it. There's the hierarchy, the exceptions, the exceptions to the exceptions, how to climb the ladder, how not to climb the ladder etc etc. Even Dharma which has multiple definitions, specific exceptions and contexts is easier to comprehend. And Karma only relates to the caste system insofar as karma pretty much relates to literally everything about one's life in Hinduism. Besides many Hindus reject the caste system as unethical these days. But like most things culturally ingrained it's sometimes stubborn, like the class warfare going on in Western countries for example.

 

[Glaurung]

Do you have any idea just how complex the Hindu caste system actually is?

I don't see the relevance. It doesn't matter at how many sub-castes within sub-castes there are; a hereditary, immutable and arbitrary feudal hierarchy is indefensible for a twenty-first century industrialised society. Even moreso when those at the bottom are treated as sub-human. Albeit to India's credit, it has been trying to rectify this. I've heard the more horrendous abuse of the Dalits has diminished.

And Karma only relates to the caste system insofar as karma pretty much relates to literally everything about one's life in Hinduism.

I'm not saying the belief in reincarnation in and of itself results in the acceptance of the caste system, nor is adherence to caste a Hindu only thing. But the acceptance of reincarnation feeds into the caste system quite obviously. Karma dictates the circumstances of your birth based on the actions of your past incarnations. Your caste is determined by your birth, therefore by extension karma dictates your caste. You sow your own karma therefore those of low caste deserve their social position regardless of individual merit.

Besides many Hindus reject the caste system as unethical these days.

The more the better, but until it's abolished "many" isn't enough.

But like most things culturally ingrained it's sometimes stubborn, like the class warfare going on in Western countries for example.

In the west it's mostly about the share of resources, we've long abolished our mediaeval feudal system. Some countries like the UK may still play lip service to it, but figureheads don't mean all that much.

 

[SomeRandom]

I don't see the relevance. It doesn't matter at how many sub-castes within sub-castes there are; a hereditary, immutable and arbitrary feudal hierarchy is indefensible for a twenty-first century industrialised society. Even moreso when those at the bottom are treated as sub-human. Albeit to India's credit, it has been trying to rectify this. I've heard the more horrendous abuse of the Dalits has diminished.

I wasn't defending it, I don't even understand it.
Karma and it's relation to caste is tentative at best. There's a lot more going on to the system itself than just "karma" is what I'm saying. There's a whole culture and history and all sorts of other philosophies and other ****. Saying Karma perpetuates it is like saying the Biblical belief in slave ownership (and at times the "Mark of Cain") is responsible for slavery, it's perpetuation of race hierarchy and it's informing of modern race relation problems. Yeah, you could say that. But that's not the whole picture.

I'm pretty sure the caste system is illegal and in bustling cities it's dying out. Slowly. But baby steps I suppose.

I'm not saying the belief in reincarnation in and of itself results in the acceptance of the caste system, nor is adherence to caste a Hindu only thing. But the acceptance of reincarnation feeds into the caste system quite obviously. Karma dictates the circumstances of your birth based on the actions of your past incarnations. Your caste is determined by your birth, therefore by extension karma dictates your caste. You sow your own karma therefore those of low caste deserve their social position regardless of individual merit.

Well yes, I see your point. But I don't know if it's that simple. For example, there are actually scriptural instances of the supposed "caste" being turned on it's head and even being rejected by one or more avatars of God. Krishna, for example, does this a few times. Gives a bag filled with jewels to a kind hearted Dalit, restores the outward beauty of a haggard peasant for in a previous life she helped Rama. And then there's the story of Krishna and Suddhama, the arrogant devotee of Shiva and many other various nuances which seem......well complicate matters related to the caste system.
So it's a weird blend of inherited culture informed by religion which then turns around and either rejects it (or at least facets of it) or creates these very specific exceptions or nuances.
At least as far as I understand. The only people who would truly understand Caste are actual Indians born and raised in India somewhere.

The more the better, but until it's abolished "many" isn't enough.

I agree. Same with racism, homophobia, antisemitism and every other seemingly inbuilt prejudice societies have.

In the west it's mostly about the share of resources, we've long abolished our mediaeval feudal system. Some countries like the UK may still play lip service to it, but figureheads don't mean all that much.

That's not the class warfare I was speaking about. But ehh, you find yobbos even over here who seem to like that feudal system crap.

 

[jeager106]

Is karma real?
No.

 

[Chakra]

I'm not saying the belief in reincarnation in and of itself results in the acceptance of the caste system, nor is adherence to caste a Hindu only thing. But the acceptance of reincarnation feeds into the caste system quite obviously. Karma dictates the circumstances of your birth based on the actions of your past incarnations. Your caste is determined by your birth, therefore by extension karma dictates your caste. You sow your own karma therefore those of low caste deserve their social position regardless of individual merit.

Let us clear up something. The modern caste system is different from the varna system in scriptures. Brahmins are supposed to be the poorest out of all of them, and are supposed to literally beg for food from the other castes. This is not the case today. Vaishyas are supposed to be the richest, being merchants and craftsmen. Again, this is not the case today. So there was no such thing as "higher" or "lower" castes. Each had their advantages.

Brahmins, despite being the poorest, received a very good education and were well-respected in society.
Kshatriyas composed of kings, warriors, government officials, etc. It's just a normal government position.
Vaishyas were the richest people in society. Businessmen, entrepreneurs, merchants, etc.
Sudras generally did not have to follow very rigid rules like the other three and thus could live a happy life.

Your birth is determined by your inclinations. So, let's say that you are generally a very good leader and aggressive, you will take a Kshatriya birth. Composed and intellectual, and you get a Brahmin birth. Your inclinations generally should not change, but if they do, then no problem. There have been many cases of people "switching" their caste (although like I said, this is rare).

Please read about the relationship between karma, reincarnation, and caste. There is no such thing as exploitation of lower castes in the scriptures. Besides, Hinduism eventually tells us to transcend these labels and simply identify as souls.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I don't believe there's .. upper end of the pyramid).

There are some very important practical differences in what you have written here and the actual situation in India. It is fortunate to be born as a Dalit (Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribes - SC/ST) in India these days or in the middle caste heirarchy (which we term as 'Other Backward Classes' and 'Extremely Backward Classes - OBC/EBC), because then one is eligible for the 'affirmative action program' (generally known as 'Reservations'). The program covers all aspects of life of these people. As students, they get free books, school bags, mid-day meals, special tuitions, educational loans at minimal rates. A percentage of seats in all educational institutions is reserved for them according to the percentage of their caste in Indian population. There is a reservation in all politcal bodies for them to the same extent. The ST/ST form and the OBC/EBC form 23% and 27% of our population. Then there is reservation in jobs and promotions to the same extent. Further when it comes to Housing, Bank finance, small enterprises, and many other fields, the same reservation holds. There is no discrimination as far as the government is concerned for these sections of the society. They are getting the benefits since all the 68 years of our independence, though the Constitution initially meant the reservation to last for just 10 years.

The Supreme Court has put a cap of 50% on reservations, but has allowed the states to have additional reservations if required. For example, the caste-based reservation stands at 69% and the same is applicable to about 87% of the population in the State of Tamil Nadu. That means the higher castes have been nearly pushed out of government consideration. In Northeastern States, Arunachal Pradesh, Meghalaya, Nagaland and Mizoram, reservation for ST in State Govt. jobs is 80%.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India

I do not claim that all percentages mentioned in my post are exact, but they are nearly so. In case of doubt you can always check the Wikipedia article.

 

[Jeremiah X]

I've taken enough time to read and consider all of the post. Thank you all.

What I am most interested in is the American version. It's ridiculous. So I slap someone and then later get punched. Lol, that's not karma. I just got punched.

What about the men, wemon and children that get blown up or hacked to death in other countrys. What did they do to deserve that terrible "karma"? Nothing! It's just what happens to them.

 

[David1967]

I believe that karma is a fictional excuse people use to justify in there own mind the laws of this earth. I don't believe in it and have several examples to support my belief.

What is karma?

Basically as I understand it anyway, it is the law of cause and effect. For every action there is a result, either good or bad. Goes along with the biblical saying of ,we reap what we sow.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

It is. Some people will say it isn't real and say " If it was real, good people would be rich, healthy and happy". That's not how karma works. It supposed to help you a lot in the afterlife and your next life. Every action you make will have results. People will say there is no karma say that and use that disbelief as an excuse to do what they want and think they won't be punished in some way shape or form. They're wrong.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What about the men, wemon and children that get blown up or hacked to death in other countrys. What did they do to deserve that terrible "karma"? Nothing! It's just what happens to them.

Who knows? Buddha said finding the cause of karma is a futile exercise because many births are involved. And these births may not have been in their own countries but anywhere in the world. However, as an atheist I do not believe in 'karma' transference to any other birth, because I do not believe that there are re-births.

 

[Chakra]

I've taken enough time to read and consider all of the post. Thank you all.

What I am most interested in is the American version. It's ridiculous. So I slap someone and then later get punched. Lol, that's not karma. I just got punched.

What about the men, wemon and children that get blown up or hacked to death in other countrys. What did they do to deserve that terrible "karma"? Nothing! It's just what happens to them.

Please read my explanation regarding that here. http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/karma.174234/

In summary, karma does not need a specific cause to operate. There can be a general cause.

 

[Brian Schuh]

Karma not karma is the laws of cause and affect. You hit someone else. That result (I will say instead of karma) of that action affects other people.It is like water and you touch it it ripples to other parts of the river and ocean. It is saying take responsibility for your actions, make good causes, and it will bring well meaning results. It's a fancy word for consequences (good or bad) from your actions can hit you in the back side or benefit you depending on the action you take and why.

Nothing more than that, really.

Here we go:

"Buddhism, it should be noted, took ove from earlier Indian thought the belief in Karma. According to this belief, all a person's moral actions, whether good or bad, produce definite effects in the person's life, though such effects may take some time before manifesting themselves. According to the Indian view, living beings pass through a endless cycle of death and rebirth, and the ill effects of an evil actions in one life may njot become evident until some future existence; but, tat they will appear eventually is inescapable. Hence only by striving to do good in one's present existence can one hope to escape the greater suffering in a future life." Lotus Sutra Commentary

That's what the Lotus is, it produces seeds and blossoms at the same time. It's the same with the Law. That Law, in Indian thought, is karma. It isn't BS, it is just a part of life.

"Karma literally means action, but technically it refers to volitional action. As the Buddha says, "It is volition that I call karma for having willed, one acts by body, speech,a nd mind" There are also four types of Karma. I have it in my book of Buddha's discources from the Pali Canon. It's extensive. But it just means actions. Without karma, then there is no reaction to a cause.

Like you say, Karma may have to do its thing in a next life, because in this life, there isn't much evidence that Karma exists. Wicked people many times are prosperous and healthy and live long lives, and righteous people many times live lives of suffering, poverty and injustice. One can't really believe in Karma without believing in an afterlife. What do you think?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Like you say, Karma may have to do its thing in a next life, because in this life, there isn't much evidence that Karma exists. Wicked people many times are prosperous and healthy and live long lives, and righteous people many times live lives of suffering, poverty and injustice. One can't really believe in Karma without believing in an afterlife. What do you think?

Karma just means actions. When we create karma (do something/cause) the consequences/affects can be good or bad.

Karma exist because when you do something/create a cause that cause brings results good or bad/effect. Its the natural law of life and balance between our actions and its consequences.

Another use of the word karma I see used more often is saying karma is the "result" of the action. So we can have good or bad karma (or results).

Either or, when you touch the water, that action is karma. When the ripples go towards the sea that action/karma spreads and affects other bodies of water creating waves. Sometimes the tides are high, sometimes low.

Karma does exist. Its an exotic word for doing something to which the results linger and create good or bad consequences.

As for the afterlife, we are in a continous cycle of karma (as described above), trying to reach enlightenment--understand the full nature of karma and the noble truths. The "wicked" created bad karma (did bad actions) and that result affects them and those around them like ripples and waves. I dont believe in life after death. I believe in life transition. So the consequences of the wicked actions will be with them in the afterlife.

One can believe in karma without believing in the afterlife. We create karma (create cause/affect and consequences) in this present moment. What we do affects others. Its all about present moment not the afterlife. Buddhism is a "present moment" religion (maybe Hindu too, dont know). Very different than how karma is defined in "future oriented" religions.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Folks. Im ending my involvement in this thread

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is karma real? No.

You think if I murder someone, there will be no repercussions? Any action and its aftermath, karma and karma-phala, apparent and hidden, physical and psychological.

Now there are people who believe in rebirth and there are people who do not believe in rebirth. I don't. So for me Karma and karma-phala is only in this life. Others believe that the results of karma go beyond one life. One could be affected by his/her deeds in a previous life or the results of one's deeds may appear in the next birth.

Wicked people many times are prosperous and healthy and live long lives, and righteous people many times live lives of suffering, poverty and injustice. One can't really believe in Karma without believing in an afterlife. What do you think?

If one does not belieive in transference of the results of action to any new birth, then there is no problem. It only becomes a matter of chance and probability. Wicked people also undergo jail sentences and may be killed by rivals. Righteous people, in spite of their poverty and injustice meted to them may be happier than wicked people because they are untroubled in their heart. What I mean to say that it is quite possible to see karma and its effects as limited to one life. At least I do that. (Being an atheist and believing in science, I do not accept the concept of rebirth).

 

[jeager106]

Webster definition of karma:
karma
play
noun kar·ma \ˈkär-mə also ˈkər-\
Popularity: Top 20% of words
Simple Definition of karma

• : the force created by a person's actions that is believed in Hinduism and Buddhism to determine what that person's next life will be like

Karma may not have a thing to do with repercussions of actions, good or evil, in THIS
life.
Perhaps this is what people mean when they refer to repercussions of bad actions
in this or the next life; if one subscribes to the notion of an afterlife.
I tend to think that evil actions, legal or illegal, tend to catch up to a person
that cannot or will not change living a life at odds with standards whatever
those standards my be.

 

[Subhankar Zac]

Karma is just the universal application of the law of cause and effect.
I believe that it has validity and based on my current circumstances, I'd say that it's real for me.
But of course, since I didn't create the universe I can assure you of its validity. Its like asking someone is the moon REALLY 100% because of a collision or could a small planet like object during the solar system's younger stages might have been caught by the earth's gravity... While ones mostly accepted, the other one is a less likely scenario.
And if Karma strengthens the caste system, buddhists and Sikhs dont have a caste system.
While it's true that karma dictates your next life, it was irrelevant to the caste system.
By the end of the Treta yuga, caste system went down a lot. Krishna was a charioteer, Vidhura a minister, etc.
Caste system was based on GUNAS, not on birth in prominent Hindu texts.
Bhagavad gita clarifies it...
Nor was SATI mandated nor was Female infanticide commanded.
Cultural context and religious concepts aren't the same.
And especially with Hinduism... A religion that has no starting date, no founder or a single belief.
Take it from a guy who just two years ago defined Hinduism as 'Weird and ****ty religion of spider Gods'.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

These spiritual concepts we have - are often very confusing arent they..?...As we see from page 1 here with its list of DIFFERENT religions that all share a similar, yet different idea, as to what this Karma is - yet clearly - because there ARE so many different ideas about it, this just shows us that actually NONE of them have the enitre truth and so the search continued...Its there - its real - yet we dont qute get it despite the millions of things said about it by "gurus" and "masters"..

.Now - to my mind - that there is the REAL problem - we tend to "adopt a guru" - Im about to do it here even in a very real sense - and we then tend to go by what that source says and thus we define our truth - except of course - its not really "our" truth then at all - its THEIR truth, the guru that showed it - its not our LEGITIMATE truth - we havent experienced it, but learned about it secondhand - and that will never suffice...

I ask you all to consider - if Karma is REAL - and if it is truly UNIVERSAL - then we must realise - it has ALWAYS BEEN IN EFFECT - even BEFORE MANKIND was Created..Because see, the UNIVERSE pre dates OUR creation - and that means if Karma is a universal Law as all these guru teachers religions insist, then it too has been here since before us mankind ever existed....So - its NOT a human thing at all - and yet - we SHARE its UNIVERSAL consequences......

So - were looking for a Universal phenomena - that shapes and moulds the CREATED worlds - and is the CAUSE for the way those worlds manifest in our reality.....We soon see - we simply CAN NOT RELY on any of these gurus to show us, as well - they cant agree -so who knows best - who to trust ??...I say simply - HOW can we expect them to know a universal truth at all ?...THEY are MORTAL - every one of them - and so personally, I wont hold out much hope that THEY can show me ETERNAL truths that have ALWAYS EXISTED.....Such gurus - teachers - religions - MAY - PERHAPS - be able to show me/us - SOME truth about "mortal life" - how to live it,how to gain understanding HERE WITHIN life - but sorry to be blunt - NONE OF THEM - can show me/us what will happen AFTER - or what happened to CAUSE this life we now have - and I mean NONE of them - EVER !!

They cant even agree the basics - so I say again - who to trust ?....And yet - KARMA - is most obviously - real and valid - yet as I also say,it is poorly understood...I mean - just take a look - ALL the major spiritual disciplines have SOME notion of it - some idea of it - so I say it MUST be authentic and legitimate - SOMETHING is at the core that we dont quite grasp though,and so its truth eludes us.......So I said - I was going to kind of - advocate a "guru" to show us this Karma, even though in the same breath I clearly say avoid all these gurus and other sources entirely - seems contradictory - but not when I say the ONLY one to trust - is CHRIST - and I tell you to trust Him alone purely because - unlike ALL these other teachers - Christ was NEVER mortal first, but was whilly DIVINE first - as in, His SELF UNDERSTANDING, didnt come like ours - from another EXTERNAL source here in life - it didnt come secondhand from a guru teacher like ours does - but rather - He IS the LIVING SOURCE of Creation itself...Literally so......This is not just a personal belief - but founded wholly on the the things He said - based on the direct experiences and results OF His teaching.....Indeed,this is WHY we can trust Him - He alone, will tell us truth first, then show us a way that WE can directly experience it for our Self thus verify it thoroughly...This of course - is GNOSIS - and only THIS form of truth will satisfy - the LIVING TRUTH of it.....

So - KARMA - a UNIVERSAL - ETERNAL force that SHAPES AND MOULDS the material worlds and the lives of those inhabiting them..To TRULY understand Karma then - we must come to know INTIMATELY - how and why the process occurred - how and why the Creation occurred - for the process of Karma IS ITSELF the process of CREATION without any seperation or possible differentiation - and that Creation occurs CONTINUOUSLY whether that be the Universal Creation direct at Source (Our Father as Christ termed it) - or the INDIVIDUAL creation of unique Self,here in the mortal mundane worlds..His teaching alone, takes mortal mind here and literally merges it - rejoins it - back first to the source of our own uniqie Self (Soul) - and beyond, after mortal death,to rejoin, re merge the Greater Sovereign Spirit - Our Father,Source of ALL existance... I have recently posted on this on another different thread topic - though wholly pertinant here also,so I will re produce what I said there in part,to clarify here also..

 

[PeteC-UK]

He said first that what He was now revealing - NO MORTAL MAN HAD EVER KNOWN - not even the god or Angels above He said know THESE truths that He then revealed ( so shocking to them that they murder Him to silence Him) - and He then went on to reveal literally EVERYTHING - and this issue of KARMA is central to it all..

As He said - forget the religion - damn the Pharisee who neither knows truth nor gives it freely...Forget ALL those external sources of "wisdom" He said, but follow Me and I will show you directly the SOURCE of ALL Creation..Christ tells it slightly differently to the traditonal Bible account - but we can find His ORIGINAL truth, in all those hundreds of manuscripts books and scrolls that the catholic church forbade us to know about - for His truth makes such a religious institute to become totally null,void and obsolete - totally unnecassary and irrelevant - and so that church destroyed His truth and replaced it with their own - so my my advise is as His - avoid all theise external sources of false wisdom...

Secrets He said that none had ever known - not even god and angels above...He repeats this statement in few places - insists that He alone is from this realm..when pushed for explanation,He is most forthcoming...He speaks of the start and how my Father came to Be...In this modern plain language - we would simply understand it as a MIND - a fully Self aware Being - but as yet it has no physical essence at all...Consider then - how does OUR mind ACTUALLY work - for we are told we are made in THAT IMAGE - one mind - all things in existance now,came from this fully abstract none physical realm....My Father - in plain English - IMAGINES that which it Will Be...

Its very first stirring Self aware "thought" - impulse in this Primal Soveriegn Mind - caused a process of NATURAL LOGIC to unfold...I nearly said "begin" to unfold - but really,time here at the start of Creation - is beyond mortal mind to comprehend..I need to say it that way,like a sequence of events so we can keep track - but really - this first part is all at once,so to speak - one aspect becomes known and it CAUSES - LOGICALLY - other aspects to become known - thus the Creation expands and continues always - Creation is not a one off event as the bible says - but its a continuous moment to moment SELF creating event - for those with ears to hear..

Wow - this is hard to explain actually - I hold all this as like - one thought - one complete awareness - one comeplte truth - and in that form - Gnosis - it is absolutely natural and easily grasped - yet to disect it now into tiny portions that a mortal mind can digest and follow - is harder it seems than holding the entirety of it as one truth...lol...does that make sense..??...

Creation - my Fathers first thought - we would just say,this mind became awre of its own existance - like it thought "Wow - IAM" - I exist...Look though - its own NATURE - its own INHERANT QUALITY - is LOGIC - it is absolutely core fundamental driving force of everything....The mind - my Father - NEEDS TO KNOW - the natural logic that it IS - pushes it to disclose it Self fully and completly..It seeks always - GNOSIS - it has this unyielding inherant desire to understand its own existance...See what happens then - the search for Gnosis - natural logic - drives it all...

Iam I exist - my Fathers mind stirs - and immediately - naturally unstoppable logic - the prompt in awareness - complimentary ripple and impulse arises alongside - cause and affect - question and answer - I exist,IAM - brings with it the response - IAM WHAT ?? The logic drives my Fathers mind - I exist,I MUST BE DEFINED - I must KNOW my SELF...But look - there is NOTHING in existance - VOID,blank empty - you cannot imagine it - but I could show you how to directly experience it - as Christ showed us also....The thought of existance itself,CAUSED the EXTERNAL and OBJECTIVE worlds to form...Iam WHAT the mind said - and into this void - dark silent state - came instead now - a vibration,movement,sound and LIGHT - in modern language - the first thought cause to exist that which we now term - ENERGY !!

In the REALISATION of my Fathers thought - literally it REALISED - as in MADE REAL - Iam I exist,so I MUST BE SOMETHING...I MUST be able to COMPREHEND my own Self...for this is the inherant nature of mind - its incessant search for logical truth of Self - GNOSIS and its living EXPERIENCE - ONE MIND that caused all else to exist...So this first thought - called forth from "nowhere" and "no time" and to symbolise this different state of Being,into this empty void mind,now shone a cloud of Light,vibrating energy...Lets call this for the sake of a label - Divine Light - and it is how my Father first REALISED it Self - as in again, MADE it REAL and EXPERENTIAL - the abstract world of IMAGINATION becomes the solid world of form and structure....But here - this first part - is not yet anywhere near complete...As yet - no forms or structures as WE understand them - but a SYMBOLIC REPRESENTATION of Self awareness - a "cloud of energy" now exists that becomes changed by and structured by,the IMAGINATION of my Fathers mind..Again,for the sake of a label - lets call this aspect of Divine imagination - a Will(power) - the force that causes things to happen - my Father CHOOSES what to become using this Will(power) apsect and this aspect is dominat,main focus....

So first - is created this cloud of Light - and look the Father mind KNOWS AND UNDERSTANDS what has happened - it is fully Sentient - the Light IS my Fathers mind and reflects the Will of the Primal mind...Therefore this cloud of Light that IS the mind,likewise has its own PERSONALITY - for it knows,it is the LIVING EMBODIMENT of the Primal Mind and the two aspects cannot be distinguished one from the other - inseperable - integral - the one cannot exist without the other - take away the Light apsect the mind has no referance to Self and is ignorant - take away the Will power of the mind and the Light ceases to exist and slips right back to that void empty state....The teaching of Christ brings this to the personal mind here and now,allows us to experience it directly - Gnosis..

This first Creation - first Persona - alongside it - contained WITHIN its realisation - integral - inseperable - is the third aspect of LOGIC....The mind know WHY it has done this Creation act and it also knows HOW it has done this Creaton act for as said,my Father IS fully omniscient,fully omnipresent,fully Sentient of the entire Creation that it is ALWAYS moment to meoment - for as said,Creation is continous - a never ending stream - I tell you this is the truth and essence of that which we call KARMA - not a tally of wrongs and rights that need balance - but a flow of creation either Sentient or ignorant - but UNSTOPPABLE as the mind pushes and yearns for full and honest Self understanding - Gnosis drives EVERYTHING...

So - all at once - integral - inseperable - the minds very first stirring impulse - causes THREE DISTINCT PERSONALITIES...In plain English - Imagination - Wisdom - Logic..Imagination is my Fathers Will(power) - Wisdom is the embodiment of the Self knowledge it holds (the entire Creation of course) - and Logic is the embodiment of Action,a dynamic force that works out options and logical consequences of what MUST BE and thus structures the Will upon the Light that represents it...The Father mind realises the distnction between these THREE modes within its own Being - and exists ALWAYS,right from that very first stirring thought AS this Trinity mind - inseperable,integral - no one aspect more important than any other,but guided always by the Divine Will...These three aspects are Self aware - like personality within the mind - similar to here - Iam Pete internet poster - a personality within my mortal mind - and yet also - iam Pete the father,also husband,friend,son, brither,worker etc ect - on and on and on - the mind divides,creates adopts personality always in order to achieve SELF UNDERSTANDING,Gnosis......These three - Trinity mind - are Primal,foundation for all that will follow...They have NO material forms but exist eternally as the Divine Light that forms all else..

Father Son Holy Ghost they say - Christ says it differently - Father,MOTHER and Son....Father and Son,we all know - Mother though..??....He said this first Perosnality that IS the Light,the Wisdom aspect - this persona He named as Sofia..To the Gnostic seeker then, they realises the Trinity as Father, Sofia Mother of All Creation, and Christ... Sofia IS the Light - IS the very ENERGY that will be used to form EVERYTHING - all worlds and material forms are this Divine Light, energy now arranged THROUGH the aspect of Christ (the Word,logical structure)..We understand this arrangement - partially - through applying OUR mind and its own Logic - pure MATHEMATICS is the ONLY way to describe these supra complex energetic interactions that cause the material worlds to form - As we know,maths is absolutely logical - for LOGIC as said,is integral to the Trinity mind that causes it all, and yes indeed, all creation has a geometric mathematical foundation, and it is all formed from this One energetic source that is the Gioddess Sofia......

ALL OF THAT - the how and why Creation happens - is KARMA !!

The DRIVE within the mind for SELF UNDERSTANDING - CAUSES these OBJECTIVE symbolic representation of SELF to be created - thus the mind looks upon it Self - comprehends that which it IS - and thus the mind gains GNOSIS - understanding through the living experience.....Worlds and their denizen souls are created to allow this Self understanding search for Gnosis to unfold - it is unstoppable - for as said - IF I exist - then I MUST BE SOMETHING - I MUST become DEFINED,KNOWN - for only then is the mind satisfied - GNOSIS drives everything - and KARMA is the process of SELF CREATION that brings that crucial Self understanding...We see the RESULTS of OUR Karma - we either Create in Self ignorance (usually,and mostly for the vast majority of us) - or some learn,realise, begin to Create with Sentient mind and full INITENT - though such an enlightened Soul is a rare commodity here these days..We l abel the RESULTS either good or bad karma - as if it is punishment or reward - bit according to Christ it is clearly a Universal and Eternal process - same process that cases the universal existance likewise causes the indidivual existance - for as He said,we mortals are made in my Fathers Image..

As He said - first before ALL endeavours - KNOW THY SELF - become fully known and all mystery will become revealed....As always - for those with ears to hear...

 

[LuisDantas]

Karma is real, but hardly theological or metaphysical.