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Is logic an assumption?

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
I have got into many debates, used to logic to assert my point and refute the others and these debates always seem to end with, "Yeah, your using logic; you're too preoccupied with words" and indeed I cry foul, because it sounds like a cop-out, but at the same time it does have some philosophical backing from skepticism and some philosophical schools think logic is worthless.

What say you, can you offer a rebuttal to this position?
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Logic is a tool. It is handy, but it is not the only tool.

I've been reading some of the philosophers who probably influenced the schools you speak of, and their position isn't necessarily that logic is worthless, but it shouldn't be the focal point when making conclusions about the human experience. Because the human experience isn't whole when logic is the only lens it is viewed through.
 

madcap

Eternal Optimist
...it does have some philosophical backing from skepticism and some philosophical schools think logic is worthless.

What is the alternative?

I suppose if the argument is "you're preoccupied with words", then maybe the issue isn't one of logic but rather of semantics. The words we assign to concepts are often loaded with alternative connotations or are simply to simple to hold the meaning we're trying to convey.
 

Mr.Advocate

Member
Greetings Suraj,

I’m not sure that any form of rebuttal will win the debate. The application of non-contradictory identification takes years to develop, and it would appear that there is a time limit to grasp the use of symbols.

I was recently reading a paper written by a linguist who by working with feral children showed case after case where children who have not been subject to learning abstract concepts in the first 12-14 years of their lives, where unable to develop the use beyond this age.

Since logic is dependant upon the law of identity where a word represents a precise existent (whether it is fully understood or not), if a user of words has not developed an ability to conceptually understand this in their formative years, then words are just a wishy-washy way of grunting out emotions.

My dog uses various sounds and postures to convey its mental state, but I wouldn’t expect it to understand algebra. Rather than debating with these folks, try scratching them behind the ear.

Take the above example of “Logic not equal common sense.” If that doesn’t deserve a pat on the head and a bone shaped treat…..
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
Mr Avocate, this is exactly the argument given by my opponent, logic only deals with symbols and has no correspondence with reality.

Let me give you an example of some arguments going back a year:

Descartes argument about pure concepts: I argue that one cannot know what is imperfect without knowing what is perfect. They respond, that one knows what is perfect from what is imperfect. I insist, no, because saying something is not x, requires the existence of x first for the negation of that to exist. They respond - that's just linguistics and does not correspond with reality.

What do you think? Can one know what is imperfect without knowing what is perfect?

The problem of evil and omnipotence, omniscience: I argue that god cannot be omnipotent, because if god is omnipotent he should be able to create another god, die, create a rock he cannot lift; he should know what we would do before we even do it. If is he benevolent, he should not condemn anybody to eternal suffering; he should not allow evil. They respond that god's benevolence, omniscience and omnipotence is different to ours and beyond our comprehension. I insist, that then we cannot use those words in the first place. They respond - that's just linguistics and logic.

The argument of subsistence: I argue that any number of particulars must necessarily subsist within a substratum which contains them all, because it is unthinkable for any particulars to exist in a vacuum. They argue, that if it unthinkable it does not mean it cannot happen. I insist, but if it unthinkable, how can we say such a thing can exist. They respond, but that's just logic.

The argument of interaction: I argue that dissimilar entities cannot interact with each other. They argue that there is no reason that should be true. I insist, how can two things which have no similarity, interact. They respond, that's just an assumption of logic.

Is there a rebuttal to any of these, or do you actually agree with their position?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I argue that one cannot know what is imperfect without knowing what is perfect. They respond, that one knows what is perfect from what is imperfect. I insist, no, because saying something is not x, requires the existence of x first for the negation of that to exist. They respond - that's just linguistics and does not correspond with reality.
Both sides are arguing "something that is not x requires the existence of x". Perfection is not imperfection; imperfection is not perfection.
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
Willema, but the negation of x requires that x exists in the first place. X is an atomic constituent and ~ x is a compound and is truth-functional.

Thus logically imperfection(~x) cannot come before x itself.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Willema, but the negation of x requires that x exists in the first place. X is an atomic constituent and ~ x is a compound and is truth-functional.

Thus logically imperfection(~x) cannot come before x itself.
Both perfection and imperfection exist.
 
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