Is Lord Krishna the only Purnavatara or are there more we do not know about?

[George-ananda]

I believe in standard Hindu thought there were 9 purnavatars. The last two were Rama and Krishna.

I know in reality there are innumerable incarnations, but is it possible that Lord Krishna may not be the only full incarnation of Narayana?

Sai Baba is help to be a purnavatara by his followers (including me). I know this sounds outlandish to others, but I have heard there will not be another avatar as full as Sai Baba for some incredible amount of time.

 

[George-ananda]

@Terese Here is something I found from Swami Sai Baba's words:

About the meaning of the word Avatar, Swami says,


The word Avatar means descent. It is not coming down from the peak of a mountain or the top storey of a tall building. It is a descent from the state of the Atma to the level of the body.

There is nothing infra-dig about the descent, as Bhagavan points out. He says,

No blemish attaches to the Divine as a result of the descent. There is no diminution in Divine power either. Let us say there is a child playing on the ground. If the mother feels it is beneath her dignity to bend, and tells the child to leap into her arms, the child cannot do so.

The mother does not ask the child to do such an impossible thing. Instead, full of love, the mother stoops and lovingly picks up the child. Likewise, the Lord incarnates assuming a human form to bless and rescue those who cannot rise to the level of the Divine. Incarnation is an act of benediction.

What about the name ‘Sai Baba’ of the present Poorna Avatar? Swami has this to say:

The name ‘Sai Baba’ means ‘Divine Mother and Divine Father’. Like a mother, I will be tender and soft and give you happiness, and like a father, I will punish you when needed. Through these methods I shall take you to a high level.


Here is the full discussion: Sai Baba Avatar

 

[Aupmanyav]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_been_considered_deities, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_claimed_to_be_Jesus,

Swami has this to say: The name ‘Sai Baba’ means .. to a high level.

Is what a person says about himself important? The list of divine claimants is long - Joseph Smith, Bahaullah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Shoko Asahara, Marshall Applewhite, Luc Jouret, Joseph Di Mambro, Osho, Nithiyananda. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of people in India today who claim to be avataras of Krishna, Shiva or Mother Goddess. I know of three who are currently in jail on rape charges - Asa Ram, Ram Lal and Paramanand.

I believe in standard Hindu thought there were 9 purnavatars. The last two were Rama and Krishna.

I thought they are Krishna and Buddha.

 

[George-ananda]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_been_considered_deities, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_claimed_to_be_Jesus,

Is what a person says about himself important? The list of divine claimants is long - Joseph Smith, Bahaullah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Shoko Asahara, Marshall Applewhite, Luc Jouret, Joseph Di Mambro, Osho, Nithiyananda. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of people in India today who claim to be avataras of Krishna, Shiva or Mother Goddess. I know of three who are currently in jail on rape charges - Asa Ram, Ram Lal and Paramanand.

The topic was purnavatar which has a more specific and restrictive meaning.than Self-Realized/Prophet/Pramahansa/Avatar/Incarnation, etc., etc..

I thought they are Krishna and Buddha.

Krishna yes, but Buddha no. Sai Baba says figures like Jesus and Buddha are not purnavatars although some may call them avatars out of respect. Sai says: No blemish attaches to the Divine as a result of the descent. There is no diminution in Divine power either. People like Buddha and Jesus developed their spiritual strength and wisdom through their lifetimes; they were not born fully Divine. They underwent study and spiritual practice. A purnavatar has no need for learning or spiritual practices as they descend fully aware. Sai Baba for instance never studied the scriptures but was a revered guru and teacher to the Vedic pundits from an early age and they attest to his knowledge of obtuse scripture beyond them.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Rama and Krishna went to Gurukulas, studied under their Gurus. They were in human form and did what humans do. Same for Buddha. Married, had children. This is what is known as 'leela'. Perhaps Chand Miyan (your Sai Baba) did not understand this. Some followers of Jainism made him their business and hugely succeeded before the Government of India put down their business and acquired the management. They did to Sai what Paul and the apostles did to Jesus, put words in his mouth. Sai is business in India today.

 

[George-ananda]

Rama and Krishna went to Gurukulas, studied under their Gurus. They were in human form and did what humans do. Same for Buddha. Married, had children. This is what is known as 'leela'. Perhaps Chand Miyan (your Sai Baba) did not understand this. Some followers of Jainism made him their business and hugely succeeded before the Government of India put down their business and acquired the management. They did to Sai what Paul and the apostles did to Jesus, put words in his mouth. Sai is business in India today.

Since you said 'your Sai Baba' I guess this is directed at me??? Nobody in the west (even with an internet search) knows what this 'Chand Miyan' is supposed to be about. Jainism is involved??? Hopefully, you will save your fingers explaining since I'm guessing it is some kind of negativity.

 

[Aupmanyav]

No problem. Saved my fingers.

 

[4M17]

Interesting - I found these verses explaining about avataras in the Garga samhita canto 1
Text 16
shri-narada uvaca
amshamsho 'mshas tathaveshah
kala purnah prakathyate
vyasadyaish ca smritah shashthah
paripurnatamah svayam

Shri Narada said: In the Smriti-shastra the great sages who have Vyasa as their leader explain that the Lord descends in six kinds of forms: 1. amshamsha (a part of a part), 2. amsha (a part), 3. avesha (entrance into a jiva), 4. kala (a full part), 5. purna (full), and 6. paripurnatama (most full).

Text 17
amshamshas tu maricy-adir
amsha brahmadayas tatha
kalah kapila-kurmadya
avesha bhargavadayah

The amshamsha incarnations begin with Marici, the amsha incarnations begin with Brahma, the kala incarnations begin with Kapila and Kurma, and the avesha incarnations begin with Parashurama.

Text 18
purno nrisimho ramash ca
shvetadvipadhipo harih
vaikuntho 'pi tatha yajno
nara-narayanah smritah

The Smriti-shastra explains that the purna incarnations are 1. Nrisimha, 2. Rama, 3. Lord Hari, the ruler of Shvetadvipa, 4. Vaikuntha, 5. Yajna, and 6. Nara-Narayana.

Text 19
paripurnatamah sakshac
chri-krishno bhagavan svayam
asankhya-brahmanda-patir
goloke dhamni rajate

The paripurnatama form of the Lord is Shri Krishna, who is the original Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. He is the master of countless universes. He is splendidly manifest in the realm of Goloka.

Text 20
karyadhikaram kurvantah
sad-amshash te prakirtitah
tat-karya-bharam kurvantas
te 'mshamsha viditah prabhoh

The amsha incarnations are said to oversee the execution of the Lord's mission (in the world). The amshamsha incarnations are understood to perform the work of executing those missions.

Text 21
yesham antar-gato vishnuh
karyam kritva vinirgatah
nanaveshavataramsh ca
viddhi rajan maha-mate

O great soul, O king, please know that in the various avesha incarnations Lord Vishnu enters (a jiva), executes His mission, and then departs.

Text 22
dharmam vijnaya kritva yah
punar antaradhiyata
yuge yuge vartamanah
so 'vatarah kala hareh

Millennium after millennium Lord Hari's kala incarnations teach and establish the principles of religion, and then disappear.

Text 23
catur-vyuho bhaved yatra
drishyante ca rasa nava
atah param ca viryani
sa tu purnah prakathyate

The purna incarnations are said to include the catur-vyuha incarnations. They are said to be the places where heroic powers and the nine rasas are seen.

Text 24
yasmin sarvani tejamsi
viliyante sva-tejasi
tam vadanti pare sakshat
paripurnatamam svayam

Others say that the form of the Lord where all powers and glories enter is His paripurnatama form, the original form of the Lord Himself.

Text 25
purnasya lakshanam yatra
tam pashyanti prithak prithak
bhavenapi janah so 'yam
paripurnatamah svayam

The transcendental qualities people see distributed among the Lord's purna incarnations are all present in the Lord's original, paripurnatama form.

Text 26
paripurnatamah sakshac
chri-krishno nanya eva hi
eka-karyartham agatya
koti-karyam cakara ha

The Lord's original, paripurnatama form is Shri Krishna and no one else. Coming (to this world) to execute one mission, He executes millions of missions.

 

[Terese]

Interesting - I found these verses explaining about avataras in the Garga samhita canto 1
Text 16
shri-narada uvaca
amshamsho 'mshas tathaveshah
kala purnah prakathyate
vyasadyaish ca smritah shashthah
paripurnatamah svayam

Shri Narada said: In the Smriti-shastra the great sages who have Vyasa as their leader explain that the Lord descends in six kinds of forms: 1. amshamsha (a part of a part), 2. amsha (a part), 3. avesha (entrance into a jiva), 4. kala (a full part), 5. purna (full), and 6. paripurnatama (most full).

Text 17
amshamshas tu maricy-adir
amsha brahmadayas tatha
kalah kapila-kurmadya
avesha bhargavadayah

The amshamsha incarnations begin with Marici, the amsha incarnations begin with Brahma, the kala incarnations begin with Kapila and Kurma, and the avesha incarnations begin with Parashurama.

Text 18
purno nrisimho ramash ca
shvetadvipadhipo harih
vaikuntho 'pi tatha yajno
nara-narayanah smritah

The Smriti-shastra explains that the purna incarnations are 1. Nrisimha, 2. Rama, 3. Lord Hari, the ruler of Shvetadvipa, 4. Vaikuntha, 5. Yajna, and 6. Nara-Narayana.

Text 19
paripurnatamah sakshac
chri-krishno bhagavan svayam
asankhya-brahmanda-patir
goloke dhamni rajate

The paripurnatama form of the Lord is Shri Krishna, who is the original Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. He is the master of countless universes. He is splendidly manifest in the realm of Goloka.

Text 20
karyadhikaram kurvantah
sad-amshash te prakirtitah
tat-karya-bharam kurvantas
te 'mshamsha viditah prabhoh

The amsha incarnations are said to oversee the execution of the Lord's mission (in the world). The amshamsha incarnations are understood to perform the work of executing those missions.

Text 21
yesham antar-gato vishnuh
karyam kritva vinirgatah
nanaveshavataramsh ca
viddhi rajan maha-mate

O great soul, O king, please know that in the various avesha incarnations Lord Vishnu enters (a jiva), executes His mission, and then departs.

Text 22
dharmam vijnaya kritva yah
punar antaradhiyata
yuge yuge vartamanah
so 'vatarah kala hareh

Millennium after millennium Lord Hari's kala incarnations teach and establish the principles of religion, and then disappear.

Text 23
catur-vyuho bhaved yatra
drishyante ca rasa nava
atah param ca viryani
sa tu purnah prakathyate

The purna incarnations are said to include the catur-vyuha incarnations. They are said to be the places where heroic powers and the nine rasas are seen.

Text 24
yasmin sarvani tejamsi
viliyante sva-tejasi
tam vadanti pare sakshat
paripurnatamam svayam

Others say that the form of the Lord where all powers and glories enter is His paripurnatama form, the original form of the Lord Himself.

Text 25
purnasya lakshanam yatra
tam pashyanti prithak prithak
bhavenapi janah so 'yam
paripurnatamah svayam

The transcendental qualities people see distributed among the Lord's purna incarnations are all present in the Lord's original, paripurnatama form.

Text 26
paripurnatamah sakshac
chri-krishno nanya eva hi
eka-karyartham agatya
koti-karyam cakara ha

The Lord's original, paripurnatama form is Shri Krishna and no one else. Coming (to this world) to execute one mission, He executes millions of missions.

What does 'Paripurnatma' mean? It sounds like such a lovely name for the Lord

 

[Aupmanyav]

Oh yes. Lord Krishna is a Purnavatara. There is nothing half-way with Brahman, part here and part there. As our books said:

"Purnamadah, purnamidam, purnāt purnamudachyate,
purnasya purnamādāya, purnamevāvasishyate."

All these doubts arise if we do not pay attention to what our books are saying. One really does not need so many verses.

 

[Terese]

Oh yes. Lord Krishna is a Purnavatara. There is nothing half-way with Brahman, part here and part there. As our books said:

"Purnamadah, purnamidam, purnāt purnamudachyate,
purnasya purnamādāya, purnamevāvasishyate."

All these doubts arise if we do not pay attention to what our books are saying. One does not need so many verses.

Purnamadah, purnamidam, purnāt purnamudachyate,
purnasya purnamādāya, purnamevāvasishyate

Om Shantih Shantih Shantih

 

[4M17]

What does 'Paripurnatma' mean? It sounds like such a lovely name for the Lord

It means original or most complete

 

[Terese]

It means original or most complete

Could you tell me the specific sanskrit words used to compose such a sweet word? "Pari' "Purna" "Atma". I fortunately know what atma means

 

[Aupmanyav]

It means original or most complete

Brahman is always complete. Brahman is the origin of all universe.
Is there any other Brahman which is not original? Don't try too hard. I do not think any one will differ from you here.
Purna = full, paripurna = most decidedly full, full in all senses. (Something like droh, rebellion, and vidroh; same meaning but more emphasis. Sort of an additive. @Jainarayan may tell you what exactly is it known as in grammar).