Is Man Born Corrupted?

[Faminedynasty]

If we are born corrupted, isn't God to blame? And is in not illogical to punish men (and, to a greater extent women) for the sins of their most distant supposed ancestors?

 

[Riven]

We are as God created us: holy, perfect, loving extensions of Himself. And God is changeless; we aren't just not corrupted, we're incorruptible.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I believe that someone choses thier life style before reincarnation occurs. So yes, man can be born corrupt, if that is the chosen life style. However, things can change, and a lifestlye completly opposite of the desired on can be lived. The soul, I strongly believe, is ammoral.

 

[Master Vigil]

Let me first clarify that I feel our "human state" is corrupted and our "natural state" is pure. Thus, a baby is born into this "natural state" and is born pure. Once society complicates them, they become corrupted. How how we should try to reach the state of a new born babe. (Metaphorically speaking of course. )

 

[James the Persian]

Fraid I don' believe in original sin.
It takes a conscious decision to do what we call sin
We are born with out that ability.

Terry

I don't believe in Original Sin either (no Orthodox Christian does) but the fact that we are born mortal and find it easier to sin than to be righteous argues that we are corrupt in some way (at least from a Christian perspective). I'm with you on the children, too. Infants are not guilty of any sin and, indeed, nor can they sin at all. When we Orthodox partake of the Eucharist we are meant to confess and receive absolution first so as to partake worthily. This often means that adults go some period of time between communion. The exception to this is small children (they also are given the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church - 'suffer the little children' and all that) who normally commune every time they attend and are not required (often not able either) to confess first. They, being sinless innocents, simply cannot be unworthy of the Body and Blood.

James

 

[NothingIsNot]

I think morals came simply from man a long time ago... Maybe one day, someone thought "If I kill this man here, that's one less worker on my farm. It would not benefit ME to kill him." I believe man has expanded from there. Now it's law, not morality, that prohibits one to kill his fellow man.

So if it weren't for laws, you'd be out there killing people?

 

[dan]

We are born perfectly innocent before God. Whatever wrongdoings we commit before we reach the mental capacity to understand the difference between right and wrong is swallowed up in the atonement of Christ. This is what is known as "general salvation" and is the free gift spoken of by Paul in Romans. Sin is knowingly acting in opposition to the Lord's commandments. Babies are incapable of this.

 

[Master Vigil]

We are born perfectly innocent before God. Whatever wrongdoings we commit before we reach the mental capacity to understand the difference between right and wrong is swallowed up in the atonement of Christ. This is what is known as "general salvation" and is the free gift spoken of by Paul in Romans. Sin is knowingly acting in opposition to the Lord's commandments. Babies are incapable of this.

What of those who never hear your gods "commandments?" Do you believe they are sentenced to hell? If not, what is the point of preaching to them? If you do, and they refuse, you are in effect damning them.

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

The Apostle Paul makes an interesting statement in Roman's 7:9 "and I was once alive aprt from the Law, but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died". In this statement, he acknowledges a mentality of accountability rather than an age. The issue of infant baptism has been highly debated withing Christianity. There is nothing in the Bible to support that when born, one automatically belong in hell if that is what is meant by humans are born corrupt. There are even examples in the OT of God punishing parents while sparing the children because they had not yet done anything wrong.

Now there is something to be said for teaching children right from wrong. For examples of this, just go to your local store. It won't be too hard to tell the difference between children who are taght this and children who are left to learn this on their own.

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

What of those who never hear your gods "commandments?" Do you believe they are sentenced to hell? If not, what is the point of preaching to them? If you do, and they refuse, you are in effect damning them.

Rom. 1:18-20 " For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been crearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

 

[Master Vigil]

Rom. 1:18-20 " For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been crearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

Such love. No wonder Christianity is losing appeal.

 

[Quoth The Raven]

...we should try to reach the state of a new born babe. (Metaphorically speaking of course. )

There's a slew of websites devoted to that...unfortunately it ain't so metaphotical

 

[Quoth The Raven]

Rom. 1:18-20 " For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been crearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

OK, so God is evident to everyone in what he's made? So if you're an obscure tribe living in the middle of a rainforest and you've never come into contact with so called civilisation you couldn't get any closer to nature and the wonders of what God has done, could you? So if you believe there is a supreme being, it must be God, even if you refer to him as Bagingi and he has the head of a monkey.
I've just done all the missionaries out of a job, no need to convert anyone there:jiggy: .
Thank you, linesmen, thank you ball boys.

 

[stemann]

Rom. 1:18-20 " For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been crearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

God didn't make it evident to me. I don't see any invisible attributes, eternal power or divine nature anywhere. If I don't believe in God, and have perfectly logical reasons for it, will I go to Hell if it turns out I was wrong?

And about the born corrupt question, we are born innocent, but apparently inevitably become corrupt through adolescence. This is what the Adam and Eve story is a metaphor for.

And something I have always wondered, if Adam could choose freely between God and eternal life or damnation, death, toil and pain, why the latter? Was he stupid or have i missed something?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Only those who believe sin can be passed down through the generations to the new born seem to believe in origional sin.
To me such an Idea is abhorrent. we are born sinless, and until we have an ability to reason can sin even be a possibility.

Terry
____________________________________________

Blessed are the poor in spirit, the kingdom of heaven is theirs.

 

[dan]

God didn't make it evident to me. I don't see any invisible attributes, eternal power or divine nature anywhere. If I don't believe in God, and have perfectly logical reasons for it, will I go to Hell if it turns out I was wrong?

And about the born corrupt question, we are born innocent, but apparently inevitably become corrupt through adolescence. This is what the Adam and Eve story is a metaphor for.

And something I have always wondered, if Adam could choose freely between God and eternal life or damnation, death, toil and pain, why the latter? Was he stupid or have i missed something?

1) No you won't go to Hell. You are only responsible for the understanding you have in this life. If you don't believe in God you cannot be condemned for disobeying him; unless, of course, you have had plenty of opportunities given to you to accept him.

2) Adam was not stupid, and yes you did miss something. Adam was given two commadnments: to multiply and replenish the earth, and not to eat the fruit. Without the fall they could never have had children. God wanted them to choose which commandment to obey, and they chose the more important. Without the fall Adam and Eve would have lived forever in the Garden of Eden never having known joy because they never would have felt pain. Everything has its opposite and those opposites are what bring variety and enjoyment to life. Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy.

 

[stemann]

2) Adam was not stupid, and yes you did miss something. Adam was given two commadnments: to multiply and replenish the earth, and not to eat the fruit. Without the fall they could never have had children. God wanted them to choose which commandment to obey, and they chose the more important. Without the fall Adam and Eve would have lived forever in the Garden of Eden never having known joy because they never would have felt pain. Everything has its opposite and those opposites are what bring variety and enjoyment to life. Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy.

Why did God give Adam two conflicting commandments. I understand the 'without pain there would be no pleasure' argument. But if he did not know good and evil before he ate the apple, how did he know it was bad (or good) to eat it?

 

[Dr. Nosophoros]

The way I see it we are animals, it's funny that animals in the wild seem to live, survive and thrive happily without printed bibles, lengthy laws, beliefs, morals etc. For the most part, animals leave each other alone unless they are hungry or protecting themselves or their families (mates) and rarely kill each other within their species and have fully functioning societies and do little or no irrecovereable ecological damage. We human animals (considered divine beings by some) seem to have a limitless capacity to destroy and subjugate ourselves and others, I see this as generally an end result because of the belief we are in the "other" category forgetting completely the natural animal self, though it surrounds us and guides many of our actions and emotions everyday. Wev'e just managed to pervert and obscure these natural traits or worse yet, allowed others to twist and pervert the base for their own use and abuse.

 

[dan]

Why did God give Adam two conflicting commandments. I understand the 'without pain there would be no pleasure' argument. But if he did not know good and evil before he ate the apple, how did he know it was bad (or good) to eat it?

He had no intrinsic understanding of morality, but he had logic. All he knew was that God said not to eat it, but he knew they could not replenish the earth in the state they were in. He had to be enticed by one side or the other. Satan enticed Eve one way and she made the decision to follow. Adam followed after a conscious decision to break the one commandment to fulfill the other. It wasn't even a sin, it was a transgression.

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

So if you believe there is a supreme being, it must be God, even if you refer to him as Bagingi and he has the head of a monkey.
I've just done all the missionaries out of a job, no need to convert anyone there:jiggy: .
Thank you, linesmen, thank you ball boys.

And that is exactly what happens when one tries to buld a doctrine on a couple of verses without taking the rest of the Bible into context.

Good job of going way off subject though.

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria