Is Man Immortal

[John Thiel]

If you are not immortal one way, why would you be in the other? That is, who can remember an existing self before his birth? So, why would there be an existing self after his death?

 

[reddogs]

From my experience, when you die, your energy leaves your body and forms a spirit (for lack of a better term). The strength of this "spirit" depends on your action throughout your entire life. Those who committed too much evil compared to good are very weak and can be destroyed. Others can end up destroying themselves. The spirit can resurrect the body (if it is not too damaged), or it can reincarnate either as a whole or as multiples (if it has enough energy). It can also just hang around or both hang around and reincarnate (again if it has enough energy to split).

I know that sounds strange (and maybe not described the best), but that is what I experienced...

Are you saying you have died, not very clear..

But the Bible is clear what happens when we die, we go to the grave and know nothing. Then when Christ returns at the Second Coming we are raised at the resurrection which Christ himself confirmed and taken to heaven to be with him.

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

2Matthew 24:7-51
7For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The Day and Hour Unknown

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Luke 21 :25-28
On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

The ressurection of the saints from the grave is at the second coming, and it is in bodily form like Lazurus, not some spirit floating around, and it is from the grave not being plucked from the fields or rooftop.

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Jesus taught that even if people died they would be raised up.

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And when he died at the cross, there were firstfruits of the saints that were raised from the grave, but the resurection of the saints is when Christ comes.

Matthew 27:52-53
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The saints who believed would be ressurected by Christ just as he was resurrected in bodily form.

Acts 4:2
Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:12-13
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

And this was being taught as a firm doctrine to the belivers along with the final judgement.

Hebrews 6:2
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Some did not believe even back then in resurrection from the grave of the saints as seen in these verses.

Acts 17:32
And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

Acts 23:6-8
But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.7And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided. 8For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

 

[reddogs]

Now if you do not believe that there is resurection at the end, you should read how Lazarus was raised from the grave by Christ, where he was after he died....

John 11 New International Version (NIV)
The Death of Lazarus

11 Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 (This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair.) 3 So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.”
4 When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.” 5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days, 7 and then he said to his disciples, “Let us go back to Judea.”
8 “But Rabbi,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you are going back?”
9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. 10 It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”
11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”
16 Then Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]) said to the rest of the disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”
Jesus Comforts the Sisters of Lazarus

17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Now Bethany was less than two miles[b] from Jerusalem, 19 and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.
21 “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
28 After she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. “The Teacher is here,” she said, “and is asking for you.” 29 When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. 30 Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him. 31 When the Jews who had been with Mary in the house, comforting her, noticed how quickly she got up and went out, they followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there.
32 When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”
33 When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. 34 “Where have you laid him?” he asked.
“Come and see, Lord,” they replied.
35 Jesus wept.
36 Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!”
37 But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?”
Jesus Raises Lazarus From the Dead

38 Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39 “Take away the stone,” he said.
“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”
40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”
43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”

 

[anthony54321]

There seems growing evidence that consciousness and the mind exists outside the body so even though the physical body dies you cannot destroy the soul. The grey are is are we reincarnated or do we exist for eternity in the next realm.

 

[reddogs]

The bible makes it very clear that a soul is a living human being, not a separate entity that lives within us.

The Bible tells us that the spirit + flesh = living soul. Take away any one of these, and the soul ceases to live.

However, the soul of a human is the seat of our emotions, our personality - many texts make this clear. It is our soul which sleeps when we die the first death.

However, Christ makes it clear that no man can destroy the soul - something only God can accomplish, which He does at the judgment at the end of time.

The word for soul are used over 1600 times in the Bible and not one time does it say that a soul is immortal or undying. On the contrary it says in Ezek 18:4 that the soul that sinneth it shall die. So the Bible clearly tells us that souls can die and are not immortal at all.

 

[John Thiel]

The bible makes it very clear that a soul is a living human being, not a separate entity that lives within us.

The Bible tells us that the spirit + flesh = living soul. Take away any one of these, and the soul ceases to live.

However, the soul of a human is the seat of our emotions, our personality - many texts make this clear. It is our soul which sleeps when we die the first death.

However, Christ makes it clear that no man can destroy the soul - something only God can accomplish, which He does at the judgment at the end of time.

The word for soul are used over 1600 times in the Bible and not one time does it say that a soul is immortal or undying. On the contrary it says in Ezek 18:4 that the soul that sinneth it shall die. So the Bible clearly tells us that souls can die and are not immortal at all.

Are you happy that souls can die, or unhappy about it?:cold:

 

[reddogs]

Are you happy that souls can die, or unhappy about it?:cold:

Thats like asking do you think Satan should die at the end in the Lake of Fire. Sin must be destroyed, and Christ at the cross overcame it so it could be, and allow those who accept Him to be with Him for eternity.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

It is extremely important to note that the old testament is a poor guide as to how christians view the afterlife, because the classical jewish (contemporary jewish beliefs were in flux) belief in an afterlife was VERY different from a heaven/hell scenario (read up on She'ol; also read up on Olam Haba which involves judgement of souls and their segregation).

 

[reddogs]

It is extremely important to note that the old testament is a poor guide as to how christians view the afterlife, because the classical jewish (contemporary jewish beliefs were in flux) belief in an afterlife was VERY different from a heaven/hell scenario (read up on She'ol; also read up on Olam Haba which involves judgement of souls and their segregation).

Well the Bible is very clear on what happens for both the good and the bad after death, and where the saints will go and also the ultimate destruction of the wicked in the Lake of Fire in a consuming fire, but which because of the Greek words used in translating from the Hebrew text has become confused with Greek myths. Christians have picked up some these false ideas and pagan beliefs of immortality of the soul, that a part of, or essence of, or spirit being of an individual, which carries with it and confers personal identity, survives the death of the body of this world and this lifetime, by natural or supernatural means. This is at odds with the Bible teaching that the dead go to the grave and know nothing and at the end when Christ comes, a eternal oblivion of the wicked and a eternal life for the saints.

The Greeks had come up with myths that all the dead dwell below the earth in the realm of Hadēs and Persephonē, good and bad alike, with a dark or dreary existence to say the least. The Greek god Hades was the king of the underworld, a place where souls live after death. The Greek god Hermes, the messenger of the gods, would take the 'dead soul' of a person to the underworld to Hades. Hermes would leave the soul on the banks of the River Styx, the river between life and death. Then Charon, also known as the ferry-man, would take the soul across the river to Hades, if the soul had gold of course. So upon burial, the family of the dead soul would put coins under the deceased's tongue. Once crossed, the soul would be judged by Aeacus, Rhadamanthus and King Minos. The soul would be sent to Elysium, Tartarus, Asphodel Fields, or the Fields of Punishment.

From the sixth century BC onwards the Greeks developed pagan ideas for the dead, and of reincarnation and even transmigration of souls. These ideas are particularly associated with the pagan Greek Religious Mysteries or Eleusinian mysteries , where initiation in this life into its ‘mysteries’ are the prerequisites for getting to paradise in the next life. So you see where the Greek words used came loaded with ideas not in line with the original Hebrew, but since at the time, Greek was used as basically English is used today to communicate between people across the world, it was translated into these Greek words, and we have to go back to what the original Hebrew scribes words they wrote to understand their meaning.

So lets look at the translation of the words closely to see their original meaning:

· Hades was the Greek work used in some places for the Hebrew term, Sheol or grave as "the place of the dead". Thus, it is used in reference to both the righteous and the wicked, since both wind up there eventually.
· Gehenna refers to the "Valley of Hinnon", which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. It was a place where people burned their garbage and thus there was always a fire burning there. Bodies of those deemed to have died in sin without hope of salvation were thrown there to be destroyed. Gehenna is used in the New Testament as a metaphor for the final place of punishment for the wicked after the resurrection.
· Tartaro (the verb "throw to Tartarus") occurs only once in the New Testament in II Peter 2:4, and basically means the abyss or oblivion.
· The Hebrew word Abaddon, meaning to perish or "destruction", is sometimes used and basically means the same as the abyss or oblivion.

In most translations they often translate Gehenna as "Hell" which was the Greek closest to the meaning. Young's Literal Translation is a notable exception, simply using "Gehenna".

As you can see, Hades is the Greek word used for the Hebrew word Sheol in Greek translations of the Hebrew Bible. While earlier translations most often translated Hades as "hell", as does the King James Version, modern translations use the transliteration "Hades", or render the word as allusions "to the grave", "among the dead", "place of the dead" and many other like statements in other verses. In Latin, Hades began to incorrectly be translated as Purgatorium (Purgatory in English use) after about 1200 A.D., but no modern English translations put Hades as Purgatory. In the King James Bible, the Old Testament term Sheol is translated as "Hell" 31 times. However, Sheol was translated as "the grave" 31 other times. Sheol is also translated as "the pit" three times.Modern translations, however, no longer translate Sheol as "Hell" at all, instead rendering it "the grave," "the pit," or "death."

Scripture tells us that the dead are in Sheol or "the grave," or "death" awaiting resurrection at the last judgment, when Christ comes and the they are raised out of the grave and also when each person will receive his reward (Matt 8:11-12; II Cor 5:10; Rev 20:12). There may be surprises for some when individuals who have proclaimed their fidelity to Jesus who will discover that in fact, they have no relation to him at all and are part of those lost with the wicked, while others who have made no claims for themselves but like the thief on the cross had faith, will find their lives rewarded with eternal life along with the other saints. (Matt 7:21-23; Luke 13:25-30). I expect to see Lazuras and also the disciples who died and are in their graves, like Peter and Paul in those saints awaiting Christ, it will be awesome to say the least.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

But if a man is already in heaven, then what need does he have for Christ and his reward, if he is already there and immortal?

No man has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. John3:13

The ego of man. i.e. the 'I', you that is posting on RF is mortal and will never attain to Heaven in all eternity. The ego can't be separated from the brain and is extinguished at the same time as the brain dies.

The incarnate soul on the other hand is the breath/spirit of God and returns to God/Heaven when the body dies.

The unintelligent man thinks he is his body.
The intelligent man thinks he is a soul incarnate in his body.
The wise man thinks of nothing but God.

 

[reddogs]

No man has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. John3:13

The ego of man. i.e. the 'I', you that is posting on RF is mortal and will never attain to Heaven in all eternity. The ego can't be separated from the brain and is extinguished at the same time as the brain dies.

The incarnate soul on the other hand is the breath/spirit of God and returns to God/Heaven when the body dies.

The unintelligent man thinks he is his body.
The intelligent man thinks he is a soul incarnate in his body.
The wise man thinks of nothing but God.

Yes, until eternal life is given to the saints at the resurrection, only God has immortality at this point (1 Timothy 1:17 & 1 Timothy 6:15-16). Let's take a look at those verses:
1 Timothy 6:15-16 - Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1 Timothy 1:17 - Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Then take a look at Psalms where David is talking about his enemies seeking him to destroy his soul.

Psalms 40:14 - Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.
Psalms 35:4 - Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.

The pagan Greek view and influence does not change what the scriptures teach. To arrive at the conclusion that souls are somehow immortal would take a lot of scriptural proof, and as far as I know, such scriptures simply do not exist.

When we look to the rules of hermeneutics we see that we must interpret the means of obscure passages with those that are clearer (rule #7). As such, we have a verse that tells what a soul is [Gen 2:7], that only God has immortality [specifically 1 Tim 6:16], that man can in fact destroy a human soul (for that is what David was talking about)[Psalms 40:14 specifically]; in light of this it would seem the clearest interpretation that can be derived is that the Bible teaches body/soul/spirit wholism verses body/soul dualism.

Also lets look at a verse to further support the Gen 2:7 verse that man is a soul instead of man having a soul;

1 Corinthians 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This verse supports Gen 2:7 for 1) it is talking about the same event, the creation of man, and 2) it reaffirms that man was made a living soul - not man was given a living soul.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Thanks for that reddogs, interesting post. The Timothy quotes are spot on to my understanding.

Understanding the question of duality vs oneness is most important imho.

It seems the mortal mind is dualistic by nature, and hence can't realize directly the underlying unity of the perceived multiplicity of existence, but only a conceptualization of IT. However if the mind is still (no thought) as in a state of awe (agape), one may be for a moment (or eternity) be one (merge) with the Whole,...the peace that passes understanding.

"Be still and know that I am God".

 

[reddogs]

Well if you look at what Jesus told Martha,
'Thy brother shall rise again.'
Martha responded 'I know that He shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.' John 11:23,24
Martha knew that life would be restored to Lazarus at the end in the resurrection . Jesus demonstrated through the resurrection of Lazarus that He was the One who could resurrect the dead according to His claim:
I am the resurrection and the life. John 11:25

The Scriptures show the saints will be restored in the resurrection on the last day. Check (1 Corinthians 15:51-55, Job 19:25-26; Job 14:10-15; Psalm 17:15; Daniel 12:13) John 5:28-29 states:

Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation.
Then you have this verse:
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first.1 Thessalonians 4:16 NKJV

So just like at the tomb with Lazarus, Christ will show He was the One who could resurrect the dead and will raise the saints to go to heaven to be with Him.

So according to scripture it shows us what happens to the righteous dead at the second coming of Christ?

"Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, ... and the dead in Christ shall rise ... and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17. "We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ... and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. ... For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.

They will be raised at the resurrection, given immortal bodies, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There would be no purpose in a resurrection if people were taken to heaven at death as some people say.

Then scripture tells what happens to these saints that are raise at the resurrection by Christ.

"They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, ... Neither can they die any more." Luke 20:35, 36. "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4.

When the saints are taken up by Christ at the resurrection there is going to be no more death and no more sorrow, or worry to make us cry or pain which was caused by sin from which the saints set free and enter into God's kingdom.

 

[TruthSearch101]

Ask the question again in a hundred years....

 

[LoveFaithHope]

If you are not immortal one way, why would you be in the other? That is, who can remember an existing self before his birth? So, why would there be an existing self after his death?

John, we as humans can't define it. Just like you said we were not existing before our birth. However, once we appeared in this word we are destine for eternity. One way or the other. Because God is immortal, He creates Humans in His image and give them immortality. However bible is also clearly saying, we as humans get separated from God by our sin that came to Humanity through Adam and Eve. There are two totally different places, bible describes, where all people of past, present and future eventually will spen their eternity in.
thank you!
:cross:

 

[reddogs]

John, we as humans can't define it. Just like you said we were not existing before our birth. However, once we appeared in this word we are destine for eternity. One way or the other. Because God is immortal, He creates Humans in His image and give them immortality. However bible is also clearly saying, we as humans get separated from God by our sin that came to Humanity through Adam and Eve. There are two totally different places, bible describes, where all people of past, present and future eventually will spen their eternity in.
thank you!
:cross:

No, that is not correct. The wicked will certainly not spend eternity with God, and only the saints at the end at the resurrection are changed, for now they do not have immortality.

Here is a good explanation on this issue by my friend palehorse, lets look at Matthew 10:28:
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Christians can examine the verse and agree that Matthew 10:28 does not define what a soul is. While the NT's usage of soul/psuche (Strong's #5590) is an expanded one that covers various symbolic meanings used, however none of the NT references that I'm aware of define what a soul is. That definition is found in the OT.

Now some points on this verse in question:

1) By one saying that this verse possibly indicates that the soul is a seperate, dualistic part of a human, than the verse itself states clearly that the soul is NOT immortal; "destroy both soul and body in hell". That alone tells me that the soul, however we decide to define it, CAN be destroyed - thus it is not immortal.

2) When we look at the various definitions for psuche in the lexicon we find a miriad of possible definitions. How do you decide which one of these definitions fits?

3) When one reads the entire Matthew 10 (particularly starting at 10:16 onward) account we find that Christ is talking to the apostles in regards to their persecution as they are being sent out to spread the Gospel. He tells them how hard it is going to be (such as in 10:9 how they would be poor (no gold, nor silver, nor brass)). He tells them not to fear those that are going to persecute them, that they would be brought before governers and kings (verse 18) by those that would have them persecuted. Basically, what we find is Jesus warning them but at the same time giving them strength to do His work - that is the theme - not fearing men. He is telling them to stay strong, for though men may be able to kill them ONLY God can determine ones salvation.

4) I think the crux of some arguments are going to be "why is body and soul mentioned seperately if they are one and the same?That is a very simple answer; the NT expands the means of words used in the OT. Soul in the NT, as we've seen from the Strong's Lexicon #5590, has various meanings. But you'll notice that virtually every definition (in particularly definition #2) shows traits that are associated with the whole being of a person (their feelings, desires, affections, etc). These are parts of the whole person, not some seperate "essense" as the very last definition (2c) would try to squeeze in. As such, the verse simply means [paraphrase] "do not be afraid of those that can kill you, if you are going to be afraid of anyone be afraid of God, for it is He that can destroy you utterly as it is He that decides your salvation".


I think once we look at the entire body of texts the overwhelming conclusion of what a soul is easily found. According to rules of hermeneutics; we must harmonize less-clear verses with those that are more clear. As such, Gen 2:7 is the clearer verse and it tells us exactly what a soul is.


Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

When God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. A living soul is composed of body and spirit.

05397 hmvn n@shamah nesh-aw-maw'

from 05395; n f; {See TWOT on 1433 @@ '1433a'}

AV-breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1; 24

1) breath, spirit
1a) breath (of God)
1b) breath (of man)
1c) every breathing thing
1d) spirit (of man)

When one dies, their spirit goes back to God who gave it, at which point, one is no longer a living soul. This is why humanity is not immortal, and must receive the same from God as a gift of salvation.

The Bible tells us what a soul is (which we saw in Gen 2:7) and that only God has immortality at this point (1 Timothy 1:17 & 1 Timothy 6:15-16). Let's see those verses quickly:

1 Timothy 6:15-16 - Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

1 Timothy 1:17 - Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

To arrive at the conclusion that souls are somehow immortal would take a lot of scriptural proof, and as far as I know, such scriptures simply do not exist.

Now there are many verses in Psalms where David is talking about his enemies seeking him to destroy his soul.

Psalms 40:14 - Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Psalms 35:4 - Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.

When we look to the rules of hermeneutics we see that we must interpret the means of obscure passages with those that are clearer. As such, we have a verse that tells what a soul is [Gen 2:7], that only God has immortality [specifically 1 Tim 6:16], that man can in fact destroy a human soul (for that is what David was talking about)[Psalms 40:14 specifically]; in light of this it would seem the clearest interpretation that can be derived is that the Bible teaches body/soul/spirit wholism verses body/soul dualism.

To add a verse to further support the Gen 2:7 verse (for we should never rely on just one verse for any biblical truth) that man is a soul instead of man having a soul;

1 Corinthians 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This verse supports Gen 2:7 for 1) it is talking about the same event, the creation of man, and 2) it reaffirms that man was made a living soul - not man was given a living soul.

God will destroy both body and soul in hell. The soul is not immortal.

Now lets address the Matt 10:28 verse again for a small point that might have been overlooked: Matt 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This marks a definite separation of body from 'soul.'

To say that the soul does not die or drifts off somewhere when a person dies we'd have to eliminate Gen 2:7 and 1 Corinthians 15:45 from the Bible, which of course we cannot do. Or is there another alternative that will harmonize all of these verses? Yes there is, and the key to that is understanding the definitions of the Greek word psuche, here are the definitions from Strong:


1) breath

a) the breath of life

1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing

a) of animals

b) of men

b) life

c) that in which there is life

1) a living being, a living soul

2) the soul

a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)
Now, I must agree with definition 2a due to its agreement in harmonizing all the scriptures in play. I cannot agree with definitions 2b or 2c for those definitions puts disharmony between the verses in question.

What Christ was telling the apostles was simple; "don't fear those that can kill you, for they can't take away your reward of salvation no matter what they do, they cannot kill (def 2a) your desires, your affections i.e. what is in your heart; but God can utterly destroy you". The verse was not intended to define what a soul is, as such we must lend more weight to those verses that state outright what a soul is; the word psuche was used in this verse to denote those intangible parts of a human that cannot be harmed by man - the seat of the emotions and intellect.

 

[reddogs]

Now lets look further at the Old Testament:
Eccl 12:5..….. because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit back to God who gave it, there is no longer a living soul. If the soul were immortal, then the scriptures would not speak of living, or dying souls. Of course a soul would be living if souls were immortal, and of course they would never be spoken of as dying if they were immortal either. So why do the scriptures apply both to the soul?

Ps 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed. 3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

In the above, David seeks to have himself, that is his soul delivered from death, because in the grave there is no remembrance of God, and he cannot give God thanks from the grave. How is this possible if the soul is immortal? If the soul were alive and in heaven with God surely it would be praising Him. Or if it were in hell, surely it would be cursing Him.

Ps 7:1 O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me: 2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver. 3 O LORD my God, if I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands; 4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy 5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

Again what sense do the above verses make if a soul is not a living person, rather than some floating entity that lives apart from the body? Can a soul be torn to pieces? Will it end when ones life does? Yes it will.

Ps 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

How can a soul go to the grave? If it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death it should not be spoken of as dying and going to the grave. If on the other hand, it is a living being, then it could be said that ones soul goes to the grave when they die, it is it’s end. When life ends, it ends.

Ps 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. 20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield. 21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name. 22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

If our souls must be delivered from death, then they are not immortal. They are like us, they are us, when we are alive. When we are raised from the dead and given everlasting life, we will again be living souls.

Ps 40:13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Who can destroy a soul if it is immortal? It is not. When life ends, it ends, because when one is alive, they are a living soul.

Ps 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Again the soul being associated with life, being redeemed from the grave. If it were immortal, this would not be so.

Ps 56:12 Thy vows are upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee. 13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death:wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

Again, when God delivers the soul from death, one can walk in the light of the living. Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Ps 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. 50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

God spared not the Egyptians souls from death, but killed them by the plagues. Their souls died, that is, they died. Obviously their souls were not immortal.

Ps 86:1 Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy. 2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee. 3 Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.

Who needs their soul to be preserved if it is immortal?

Ps 89:47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain? 48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Again, why would a soul go to the grave at death if it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death? It is because the body goes into the grave at death, it is a dead soul, it is not living, because the body and the breath or spirit from God have separated.

Ps 116:7 Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the LORD hath dealt bountifully with thee. 8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling. 9 I will walk before the LORD in the land of the living.

Because his soul was delivered from death, he will walk before the Lord in the land of the living, he is a living soul.

Ps 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. 175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. 176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 38:16 O Lord, by these things men live, and in all these things is the life of my spirit: so wilt thou recover me, and make me to live. 17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Because he was delivered from death, his soul was delivered from the pit of corruption, that is, the grave. The living, they are the ones who praise God. The dead cannot, because they are not living souls. All such nonsense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

A prophecy concerning Christ. How can a soul be an offering? A sacrifice must die. If the soul is immortal, then it cannot be a sacrifice. Yet Christ poured out His soul unto death for our sins. He died the death we deserved, and when He did, He was no longer a living soul.

 

[LoveFaithHope]

No, that is not correct. The wicked will certainly not spend eternity with God, and only the saints at the end at the resurrection are changed, for now they do not have immortality.

reddogs, appreciate all your incites. However you did not say where in particular i was incorrect. Immortal is the one who never dies. My point was this: as soon as human appears on this Earth, he or she becomes immortal. The other thing is where to spend this immortality. Heaven or Hell. Heaven is for all who repented and put their faith in Jesus Christ alone. Hell is for all who were separated from God by not repenting and trusting in Christ alone. Of course if you define immortality as physical appearance only, than person without physical body will be temporary mortal. I do not share this though. Because whether we are in body or in spirit, we are still immortal. And spending time in hell, means dieing for eternity in agony, being in the body and conscious of your predicament. Spending time in Heaven means seeing and enjoying Jesus Christ for eternity.
thank you!

 

[reddogs]

reddogs, appreciate all your incites. However you did not say where in particular i was incorrect. Immortal is the one who never dies. My point was this: as soon as human appears on this Earth, he or she becomes immortal. The other thing is where to spend this immortality. Heaven or Hell. Heaven is for all who repented and put their faith in Jesus Christ alone. Hell is for all who were separated from God by not repenting and trusting in Christ alone. Of course if you define immortality as physical appearance only, than person without physical body will be temporary mortal. I do not share this though. Because whether we are in body or in spirit, we are still immortal. And spending time in hell, means dieing for eternity in agony, being in the body and conscious of your predicament. Spending time in Heaven means seeing and enjoying Jesus Christ for eternity.
thank you!

No, man is not immortal, so that part 'as soon as human appears on this Earth, he or she becomes immortal.' is not correct.

Look at scripture and it shows it clearly...

Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Is God a liar? If a soul is immortal it cannot die. God says the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Again, the soul is identified with the person. If the person lives, the soul lives. If the person dies, the soul dies. A soul is a living person with a body combined with the breath, or spirit from God. So man of himself is not immortal neither is he born immortal.


Here is a good explanation by a friend of ours, Samuele Bacchiocchi

"...Throughout human history, people have refused to accept the finality that death brings to life. They have tried to deny the reality of death by teaching various forms of life after death. A key component of this teaching has been the belief in the survival of the soul apart from the body at the moment of death.


In spite of all the scientific breakthrough, the popularity of the belief in the immortality of the soul has not subsided. On the contrary, it is spreading today like wildfire. According to a recent Gallup Poll, 71 percent of Americans believe in some form of conscious life after death.1 The popularity of this belief can be attributed, not only to the traditional teachings of Catholic and Protestant churches, but also to such factors as the polished image of mediums and psychics, the sophisticated "scientific" research into near-death experiences, and the popular New Age channeling with the alleged spirits of the past.
​

The result is that few beliefs are more widely held today than that of the "immortal soul." Virtually everyone is familiar with this belief. If asked, the average religious person would define the belief something like this: A human being is composed of both body and soul. The body is the temporary physical flesh-and-blood "shell" that houses the soul. The soul is the nonmaterial, immortal component that leaves the body at death and lives on consciously forever in heaven or hell (or purgatory for the Catholics).


Is this popular belief taught in the Bible? Does the Bible teach that we have an immortal soul that leaves the body at death and heads on for heaven or hell, or purgatory? The answer of the average religious person is "YES"! They simply assume that the belief in the immortality of the soul is taught in the Bible. Is this true? Absolutely NOT! This chapter shows that the notion of an immortal soul co-existing with a mortal body, is foreign to the Bible. It derives mostly from Greek pagan philosophies that gradually entered into the Christian church."

The Greeks, as in some measure the Egyptians before them, created myths of the afterlife which spread throughout the Hellenistic world, and even into words which were used when the Hebrew text was translated into the Greek. Scripture clearly rejects the Greek notion of the immortality of the soul disembodied from the here and now as spirit beings, and early Christians affirmed the resurrection of the body just as Lazuras was resurrected by Christ. So there is no place for a underworld depicted in Greek myths or place of cleansing by fire in the underworld where spirit beings are left till they are ready to be reunited with God, it comes from other origins.

In Greece this false doctrine was spread through the Greek mystery religions. Plato, giving the lie to this says, of "those who are judged," some must first "proceed to a subterranean place of judgment, where they shall sustain the punishment they have deserved." The ancient Greeks sacrificed on the thirteenth day (after death) to Mercury as the conductor of the dead, they also had sacrifice which, according to Plato, "was offered for the living and the dead", and was supposed to free them from all the evils to which the wicked are liable when they have left this world.

Many have tried to bring in this idea that man possessed immortality of himself when he comes into the world but the Bible says different.

 

[John Thiel]

No, that is not correct. The wicked will certainly not spend eternity with God, and only the saints at the end at the resurrection are changed, for now they do not have immortality.

Here is a good explanation on this issue by my friend palehorse, lets look at Matthew 10:28:
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Christians can examine the verse and agree that Matthew 10:28 does not define what a soul is. While the NT's usage of soul/psuche (Strong's #5590) is an expanded one that covers various symbolic meanings used, however none of the NT references that I'm aware of define what a soul is. That definition is found in the OT.

Now some points on this verse in question:

1) By one saying that this verse possibly indicates that the soul is a seperate, dualistic part of a human, than the verse itself states clearly that the soul is NOT immortal; "destroy both soul and body in hell". That alone tells me that the soul, however we decide to define it, CAN be destroyed - thus it is not immortal.

2) When we look at the various definitions for psuche in the lexicon we find a miriad of possible definitions. How do you decide which one of these definitions fits?

3) When one reads the entire Matthew 10 (particularly starting at 10:16 onward) account we find that Christ is talking to the apostles in regards to their persecution as they are being sent out to spread the Gospel. He tells them how hard it is going to be (such as in 10:9 how they would be poor (no gold, nor silver, nor brass)). He tells them not to fear those that are going to persecute them, that they would be brought before governers and kings (verse 18) by those that would have them persecuted. Basically, what we find is Jesus warning them but at the same time giving them strength to do His work - that is the theme - not fearing men. He is telling them to stay strong, for though men may be able to kill them ONLY God can determine ones salvation.

4) I think the crux of some arguments are going to be "why is body and soul mentioned seperately if they are one and the same?That is a very simple answer; the NT expands the means of words used in the OT. Soul in the NT, as we've seen from the Strong's Lexicon #5590, has various meanings. But you'll notice that virtually every definition (in particularly definition #2) shows traits that are associated with the whole being of a person (their feelings, desires, affections, etc). These are parts of the whole person, not some seperate "essense" as the very last definition (2c) would try to squeeze in. As such, the verse simply means [paraphrase] "do not be afraid of those that can kill you, if you are going to be afraid of anyone be afraid of God, for it is He that can destroy you utterly as it is He that decides your salvation".


I think once we look at the entire body of texts the overwhelming conclusion of what a soul is easily found. According to rules of hermeneutics; we must harmonize less-clear verses with those that are more clear. As such, Gen 2:7 is the clearer verse and it tells us exactly what a soul is.


Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

When God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. A living soul is composed of body and spirit.

05397 hmvn n@shamah nesh-aw-maw'

from 05395; n f; {See TWOT on 1433 @@ '1433a'}

AV-breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1; 24

1) breath, spirit
1a) breath (of God)
1b) breath (of man)
1c) every breathing thing
1d) spirit (of man)

When one dies, their spirit goes back to God who gave it, at which point, one is no longer a living soul. This is why humanity is not immortal, and must receive the same from God as a gift of salvation.

The Bible tells us what a soul is (which we saw in Gen 2:7) and that only God has immortality at this point (1 Timothy 1:17 & 1 Timothy 6:15-16). Let's see those verses quickly:

1 Timothy 6:15-16 - Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

1 Timothy 1:17 - Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

To arrive at the conclusion that souls are somehow immortal would take a lot of scriptural proof, and as far as I know, such scriptures simply do not exist.

Now there are many verses in Psalms where David is talking about his enemies seeking him to destroy his soul.

Psalms 40:14 - Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Psalms 35:4 - Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.

When we look to the rules of hermeneutics we see that we must interpret the means of obscure passages with those that are clearer. As such, we have a verse that tells what a soul is [Gen 2:7], that only God has immortality [specifically 1 Tim 6:16], that man can in fact destroy a human soul (for that is what David was talking about)[Psalms 40:14 specifically]; in light of this it would seem the clearest interpretation that can be derived is that the Bible teaches body/soul/spirit wholism verses body/soul dualism.

To add a verse to further support the Gen 2:7 verse (for we should never rely on just one verse for any biblical truth) that man is a soul instead of man having a soul;

1 Corinthians 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This verse supports Gen 2:7 for 1) it is talking about the same event, the creation of man, and 2) it reaffirms that man was made a living soul - not man was given a living soul.

God will destroy both body and soul in hell. The soul is not immortal.

Now lets address the Matt 10:28 verse again for a small point that might have been overlooked: Matt 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This marks a definite separation of body from 'soul.'

To say that the soul does not die or drifts off somewhere when a person dies we'd have to eliminate Gen 2:7 and 1 Corinthians 15:45 from the Bible, which of course we cannot do. Or is there another alternative that will harmonize all of these verses? Yes there is, and the key to that is understanding the definitions of the Greek word psuche, here are the definitions from Strong:


1) breath

a) the breath of life

1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing

a) of animals

b) of men

b) life

c) that in which there is life

1) a living being, a living soul

2) the soul

a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)
Now, I must agree with definition 2a due to its agreement in harmonizing all the scriptures in play. I cannot agree with definitions 2b or 2c for those definitions puts disharmony between the verses in question.

What Christ was telling the apostles was simple; "don't fear those that can kill you, for they can't take away your reward of salvation no matter what they do, they cannot kill (def 2a) your desires, your affections i.e. what is in your heart; but God can utterly destroy you". The verse was not intended to define what a soul is, as such we must lend more weight to those verses that state outright what a soul is; the word psuche was used in this verse to denote those intangible parts of a human that cannot be harmed by man - the seat of the emotions and intellect.

As I understand from the above, though there is redemption, only the Saints receive immortality. I was wondering about this attitude you have, since clearly you have isolated the truth, at least as you find it to be. Are you yourself a saint? If not, you must be satisfied with the eventual end of yourself. Or are you seeking to become a saint, perhaps?