Is materialism a part of Atheism or Atheism a part of materialism?

[Bunyip]

Ok, hmm. This seems to be a crucial juncture. Not all religions are as faith heavy as they are action heavy, that is a pretty fundamental thing that one learns. That is to say, of a religion, the belief in god(s) may be the most benign quality on their whole sort of menu. It could be a thing which is just a tiny adjunct to it. At a certain point with all that, it might get hard to recognize an atheist in it, if there would be one who might surprisingly claim in, in contrast to all other parameters involved. Maybe atheism is a poor term for what many probably are in the west, which one might define with the another term that speaks to someone who is 'areligion' or something. Because that's how a lot of them probably mean to classify themselves.

Aren't we discussing atheism, not religion? You keep swapping from one to the other.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

No, not at all - atheism just relates to belief in a God, not the supernatural.

Well, then we both know that most western atheists want to do away with the whole bit. Most of them don't follow not only a god but a 'religion,' therefore they are - behold, not atheists but athrēskeiaists. That's probably coining a new term. The greek word for religion there in the new testament, is θρησκεία. Whereas theos refers to god in greek, you're right.

What do you mean 'merely a materialist' and what do you mean about their behaviour?

If someone believes in the supernatural, I don't know, they might put time into meditation, display foreboding for a horoscope reading, stuff like that.

 

[Bunyip]

Well, then we both know that most western atheists want to do away with the whole bit.

I am an atheist, and certainly don't want that. Most Western atheists like chocolate - that does not infer a relationship.

Most of them don't follow not only a god but a 'religion,' therefore they are - behold, not atheists but athrēskeiaists. That's probably coining a new term. The greek word religion there in the new testament, is θρησκεία. Whereas theos refers to god in greek, you're right.



If someone believes in the supernatural, I don't know, they might put time into meditation, display foreboding for a horoscope reading, stuff like that.

Sure, and they might do all of that and be atheist.

 

[Desert Snake]

That doesn't even make sense. There is no statistical data demonstrating anything that conflicts with materialism, and atheism has nothing to do with materialism anyway.

Of course atheism has something to do with materialism. This is where we encounter the usual problem of what you mean by ''atheism'', because all definitions do not equally interact with materialism.

You can't render a position untenable by just dismissing it without a rational argument.

Ah. Notice that you used the word 'rational'? The problem with that is, to me, materialism is not rational; it is obviously incorrect. Yet, to you, it is the only option, due to what you consider lack of evidence otherwise. Notice the pattern here, whether it's theism, etc., ? Yes, it's entirely subjective to what you have figured 'rational'. I do not believe that you have honestly examined this topic,.

 

[Bunyip]

Of course atheism has something to do with materialism. This is where we encounter the usual problem of what you mean by ''atheism'', because all definitions do not equally interact with materialism.

Ah. Notice that you used the word 'rational'? The problem with that is, to me, materialism is not rational; it is obviously incorrect. Yet, to you, it is the only option, due to what you consider lack of evidence otherwise. Notice the pattern here, whether it's theism, etc., ? Yes, it's entirely subjective to what you have figured 'rational'. I do not believe that you have honestly examined this topic,.

Do you want to discuss this? I'm happy to, but you seem to take issue with my 'tone'.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Is materialism a part of Atheism or Atheism a part of materialism?

No. Same with physicalism.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Can you give me a specific example of some things plenty of atheists believe that are outside of materialism?

Non-reductive physicalism, the ontological status of emergent causal functional processes, the orthodox/Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, the death/failure of reductionism in the most reductionist program in existence (particle physics), etc.

 

[Desert Snake]

Do you want to discuss this? I'm happy to, but you seem to take issue with my 'tone'.

I'm always open for debate, but not if it is expected that I 'agree' to an arbitrary 'default', or 'logical' etc stance of materialism. That, I don't agree with; it isn't accurately reflecting the facts of the argument.

 

[idav]

atheism is configured from 'materialism'. They're both lacking in information, hence 'wrong', no matter how one spreads the bagel. agnosticism without atheism is possible, if we have certain definitions. atheism with very strict definition of 'theism', is viable, but then limited to very specific arguments. plain materialism simply is too problematic to justify.

Only for people which keep insisting that God and spirit are somehow not a material substance.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

The mind (and the soul, such that it is perceived as a non-corporeal substance) are functions of the brain.

In my perception of it, I guess I never saw the distinction between mind and soul. And of course, the case of your idea here, the soul would have be corporeal since it is a function of the brain, which I've always understood to be corporeal, as I think it is commonly understood.

"If the mind & soul are corporeal functions, then no deity exists." (Whereas "deity" is defined as "set apart" from the material world.

Well, that syllogism/contrapositive statement may not apply to all the diverse theology out there. Maybe for the Christian one, which seems pretty specific on the soul being non-corporeal. With other religions it may not quite be like that.

Either way, it just seems like Atheism without Materialism leaves a lot of things unexplained and/or unprovable, ergo Agnosticism.

Logical positivism or empiricism etc. etc. leaves a lot of things unexplained and/or unprovable! Heck, I was just reading last month's edition of the Scientific American and they were talking about the unexplained intricacies of the human inner ear. Not all the eggs are in the basket there either.

 

[leibowde84]

I hear that a lot but I don't think the 'plenty' part is true. Can you give me a specific example of some things plenty of atheists believe that are outside of materialism?

karma (in the modern sense).

 

[Willamena]

Is materialism a part of Atheism or Atheism a part of materialism?

It can lead to atheism, but it's not essential to atheism. Fiction is more essential to atheism: I took up the cause of atheism when I discovered some people believed God was a man who lived on a cloud in the sky. I was about six years old.

 

[atanu]

It can lead to atheism, but it's not essential to atheism. Fiction is more essential to atheism: I took up the cause of atheism when I discovered some people believed God was a man who lived on a cloud in the sky. I was about six years old.

But I suppose that a godlike person can indeed keep abode in clouds.

 

[George-ananda]

Non-reductive physicalism, the ontological status of emergent causal functional processes, the orthodox/Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, the death/failure of reductionism in the most reductionist program in existence (particle physics), etc.

OK, but I was using 'materialism' in its standard philosophical sense as it applies to ideas in religion and spirituality. From Wikipedia:


Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all phenomena, including mental phenomena and consciousness, are identical with material interactions.

Materialism is closely related to physicalism, the view that all that exists is ultimately physical. Philosophical physicalism has evolved from materialism with the discoveries of the physical sciences to incorporate more sophisticated notions of physicality than mere ordinary matter, such as: spacetime, physical energies and forces, dark matter, and so on. Thus the term "physicalism" is preferred over "materialism" by some, while others use the terms as if they are synonymous.



Now, the complex scientific things you listed are on the order of things like forces, dark matter, etc. in the definition above. None of these disrupt the materialist position on consciousness, religion and spirituality. You are just showing the complexity of matter/energy/etc. in the latest scientific understandings but the philosophical position as it relates to consciousness/religion/spirituality is the same. It is still all just matter and energy doing their complicated dance.

 

[George-ananda]

karma (in the modern sense).

I don't understand what you mean by 'karma (in the modern sense)'. I'm doubting this is something outside of materialism but I need to hear more.

 

[Willamena]

But I suppose that a godlike person can indeed keep abode in clouds.

I think even at that age I had an idea about what being a person entails that would preclude them living in clouds.

 

[atanu]

I agree. At sixty or at seventy or at any time, however, one may realise that one is not discrete.

 

[leibowde84]

I don't understand what you mean by 'karma (in the modern sense)'. I'm doubting this is something outside of materialism but I need to hear more.

The force created by a person's actions that some believe causes good or bad things to happen to that person.

 

[leibowde84]

I agree. At sixty or at seventy or at any time, however, one may realise that one is not discrete.

"discrete"?

 

[George-ananda]

The force created by a person's actions that some believe causes good or bad things to happen to that person.

I'm afraid I am still not clear. What is this force? Are you saying it gets stored up for a future release? Or the force has the intelligence to understand what we subjectively call good/bad?