Is prayer a form of magic?

[Twig pentagram]

Pray not for what you want God to do for you,...but pray for guidance as to what you can do for God.

What...

 

[Twig pentagram]

This thread was about prayer and magic. I don't know how it got hi-jacked by the is god evil argument.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What you are suggesting is that for evil not to have come into existence God should have created man without the ability to make decisions for himself. That suggests that you believe that God's gift of free will was evil. Had God created man without free will that would have been the evil thing in my mind.

No, I'm not suggesting that. What I'm saying is that if God were to exist, he would be responsible for his actions just like anybody else. This is very different from judging certain actions right or wrong.

Now... in the Christian POV, if God deems "evil" to be something worthy of punishment, then this means that a certain measure of his divine wrath is due to be self-inflicted. However, I haven't given any sort of opinion on whether free will would make this cost "worth it" to God.

How do you see absolute morality as a part of this discussion?

If evil is subjective, then it isn't necessarily "created" per se. This renders the question of who is responsible for the creation of evil moot.

 

[Willamena]

Does "God" also share responsibility for bringing responsibility into the world?

Did "God" create responsibility because it was the responsible thing to do?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This thread was about prayer and magic. I don't know how it got hi-jacked by the is god evil argument.

Sorry about that... it happened here, AFAICT:

But god is the "dark forces"....well, the Abrahamic deity is.

Green Kepi made the distinction that prayer wasn't magic because magic "calls upon dark forces", and gnostic put forward the position that this was a distinction without difference, because calling on God was calling on "dark forces" as well.

This led to a whole thing about whether God is really a "dark force".

 

[Justin Thyme]

No, I'm not suggesting that. What I'm saying is that if God were to exist, he would be responsible for his actions just like anybody else. This is very different from judging certain actions right or wrong.

Okay, taking this route government is responsible for crime by creating the laws that define criminal behavior.

Now... in the Christian POV, if God deems "evil" to be something worthy of punishment, then this means that a certain measure of his divine wrath is due to be self-inflicted. However, I haven't given any sort of opinion on whether free will would make this cost "worth it" to God.

This Christian views the judgement and punishment a little different. I view sin and evil as something we inflict upon ourselves by alienating ourselves from God. God is always there to accept us back we are the ones who cause the separation. Sin isn't a list of activities that we are guilty of, it is our taking ourselves out of the presence of God.

A big part of the way I maintain my presence with God is through prayer. It helps me think. It helps me understand the way God will have me to act and to be. In that is where I find that prayer to be magical. If not for free will I would not know that magic. That free will allows me to choose the right thing, not those things that take me out of the presence of God.

Whether evil just happens or is created is a semantical argument that I'm not interested in. Regardless of which it is a result of humans choosing the wrong way.

 

[Green Kepi]

As far as anyone knows he never gave me anything, has never said anything and will never know anyone, because as far as anyone knows he does not exist.

But hey, show me some evidence that he does and I might change my mind. Not about him being a dictator and a bully, but about the existence thing at least.

Is there a better Thread to address this? Staff? I will move there if you suggest one...thanks....

 

[blackout]

Does "God" also share responsibility for bringing responsibility into the world?

Did "God" create responsibility because it was the responsible thing to do?

hehe.... You are so funny.

I love the way you think and reason. :hug:

 

[Willamena]

I love the way you think and reason.

Oh! Is that what you call it? :hug:

 

[gnostic]

Sorry, Kepi. Forgotten I have posted something in this thread, and didn't see your reply until now.

He may not be as dark and sinister as you think...I, as a Christian am one of the few that does not believe in the "man-invented" hell...I believe God will just destroy the soul. God is an "all consuming fire"...He is the symbolic 'Lake of Fire'...hopefully you will admit that we are not the center of the universe, not the reference point against which goodness can be judged.

Never thought we were the centre of the universe. Our only point of reference in the universe is in our world, what we see, hear and experience.

But we act and think as though God's goodness depends on how well we like what's going on.

We are not in a position to judge the goodness of God's actions. We see too small a part of the overall picture - a picture that covers all of time and all of mankind....

If god do exist, then I would agree that we don't see the whole picture. As I said, we can only act on what experience. The whole thing about goodness and evil is all human constructs.

Let's take the sun as an example.

We benefit from the sun. The sun provide light and heat. It help plant to grow healthy and it is even good for us (vitamin D). From this view, the sun can be view as good.

Too much of the sun can also have negative effect, such as causing heat stroke or sun stroke, the later can exacerbate skin cancer. It can ruin crops if there are no balance, because plants also need rain and the night. This can be view as the sun being evil.

The truth of the matter is the that our star is just there; it is a natural phenomena, and more importantly, it's not sentient, therefore good and evil don't come into it.

The same can't be said a deity or deities. All we know comes from people who supposedly can communicate with this deity, have some sort of relationship with the deity and all of these are written down in ancient books or scrolls. Today, we can only interpret what is written or taught about the religion and its god.

You say we can not know god, and you are probably right, but what we know and what some people believe in, both past and present, we can get a picture of what this is god like, and from our reasoning, we can determine if god is good or evil, and should we follow (or worship) this god or not.

As to the god being either good or evil, I see that from what I've read that has good (or positive) attributes and bad (or negative) attributes. If I was to believe that he is exist, he is both, a creator and destroyer of lives.

As to the this soul, you wrote about, being destroyed, perhaps, you can start another thread about the soul, since we are already off-topic.

 

[gnostic]

What I'm saying is that WE are responsible for our OWN actions. Trying to blame our failings on God is a cop out.

True. I do believe that we are responsible for our own action.

However, I would like to point out, that saying god created this world, or universe, or saying that god is good which has nothing to do with god, is equally a "cop out".

 

[gnostic]

This thread was about prayer and magic. I don't know how it got hi-jacked by the is god evil argument.

Sorry, twig.

This sort of things happen a lot in a forum. I didn't expect this to happen.

To answer your OP, I would say yes and no. Prayer to a god is a form of communication, which don't necessarily have to do with magic, but it is really dependent on the types of prayer.

Here are examples:

A family saying grace at the dinner table, I would not view as magic. It is simply thanksgiving.

I don't believe in magic or the supernatural. So if a person who pray for a miracle to happen for whatever reason, then he is asking for something supernatural to happen (or don't want to happen). This to me, sounds like superstition and magic, if the person believe that such prayer may benefit him or to prevent something from happening, or to ward off evil.

So it really depend on the usage of the prayer.

Prayers are like incantations in magic (not that I believe in this). The words seem important part of both (prayer or magic), as if it meant to do something.

 

[Octavia156]

I think prayer is a form of magic, what do you think?

Absolutely. Or at least a precurser to magick

In my view prayer is a Statement of Will and Magick is the Art of causing change according to one's Will.

:angel2:

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Because the alternative is believing any claim ever made about reality by anyone. At least if you want to be consistent.

Sure. Why should that alternative not be how the world works? What is the evidence for the alternative being the way things should not be?

 

[jarofthoughts]

Sure. Why should that alternative not be how the world works? What is the evidence for the alternative being the way things should not be?

Simple survivability, the measuring stick of all life.
If you believe everything that everyone tells you at any time (not to mention whatever fancies you come up with yourself) then chances are you won't survive, and a society built upon that idea wouldn't last long enough to become a society. Utter gullibility simply isn't a useful survival trait.

 

[fatima.zahra]

WE should prayers most for us , for our family and friends even for every muslim because it a best way to get desired wishes from Allah Ta'ala even though He great one knows hearts's prayers but it is necessary for us to pray and when we pray we feel peace and calm.

 

[blackout]

WE should prayers most for us , for our family and friends even for every muslim because it a best way to get desired wishes from Allah Ta'ala even though He great one knows hearts's prayers but it is necessary for us to pray and when we pray we feel peace and calm.

It must be magic!

 

[Twig pentagram]

It must be magic!

I love your religion. I think I'm going to convert.