Is prayer meaningless?

[theonepaladin]

Prayer is like a child asking for candy when the mother knows that he wants it but is not healthy.

God is the All Knowing Monotheistic Being.

God knows what you want.
God knows what you need.

Prayer serves more than one purpose.
Prayer can be used to worship.
Prayer can be used to ask something.

I may be contradicting something... but prayer isnt necessary.

 

[Wandered Off]

Meaning is not intrinsic. It's assigned by each of us and can vary with a shift in perspective.

I can view prayer as meaningful if I adopt a definition like the one Sojourner wrote above, or I can view prayer as meaningless by seeing it as asking for favors from an imagined entity.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

in most mainstream religions,it is often asserted that god knows the inner workings of your mind and "heart".so is prayer needed to convey your ideas and feelings?this seems to be a pointless activity.

I think this highlights the fact that prayer isn't a dialogue with god, but a psychological tool to alleviate fear and anxiety and create a sense of control. In the sense that no god is actually hearing your prayer - yes, it is meaningless. However, in the actual sense that people use prayer for, it is as meaningful as they believe it is. The placebo effect is powerful stuff.

 

[Qwert12345]

I think this highlights the fact that prayer isn't a dialogue with god, but a psychological tool to alleviate fear and anxiety and create a sense of control. In the sense that no god is actually hearing your prayer - yes, it is meaningless. However, in the actual sense that people use prayer for, it is as meaningful as they believe it is. The placebo effect is powerful stuff.

this is true.when i made this thread, i was thinking more along the lines of your basic prayer requests.something like this: lord,i want to stop drinking alcohol (god already knows).lord,my mother is sick (god already knows) etc.although i do see your point about the psychological benefit.

 

[gzusfrk]

A man's word's are not meaningless.

 

[Qwert12345]

A man's word's are not meaningless.

they are if no one hears them.

 

[sandandfoam]

they are if no one hears them.

Is it your view that alone everything is meaningless?

 

[ChristineES]

Just because something has no meaning to you, it does have meaning to someone else. I don't see prayer as meaningless and either do most theists.

 

[Qwert12345]

Just because something has no meaning to you, it does have meaning to someone else. I don't see prayer as meaningless and either do most theists.

alright,alright.if you read my earlier posts i said i can understand the psychological benefit.i simply responded to the claim that a mans words are not meaningless,when in fact they are if they fall on deaf ears.as an agnostic,i cannot make sense of prayer.this is not a condemnation on prayer,only my position on it.im willing to listen,perhaps you could persuade me?

 

[ChristineES]

alright,alright.if you read my earlier posts i said i can understand the psychological benefit.i simply responded to the claim that a mans words are not meaningless,when in fact they are if they fall on deaf ears.as an agnostic,i cannot make sense of prayer.this is not a condemnation on prayer,only my position on it.im willing to listen,perhaps you could persuade me?

I wasn't talking to you alone, just generally.

 

[gzusfrk]

this is true.when i made this thread, i was thinking more along the lines of your basic prayer requests.something like this: lord,i want to stop drinking alcohol (god already knows).lord,my mother is sick (god already knows) etc.although i do see your point about the psychological benefit.

You probably have a problem with the parable of the guy that wanted some bread from his neighbor,knocked on his door many time's. Jesus said not because of his need's did he get the bread, but because of his persistance. and you have to have someone to pray to it would seem.

 

[Copernicus]

Not so. I pray daily. It is most often an expression of wonder, gratitude and joy. It's a lot like laughing out loud.

You can experience wonder and joy of nature without praying, but I do think that religion gives people a way to understand that very natural feeling. So does science (as expressed in Dawkin's Unweaving the Rainbow). But you also reinforced my point be saying that you prayed to express gratitude. Gratitude for what? That is something that atheists do not share with the religious, because there is no gift giver to be grateful to. Gratitude is a social grace. If you take gifts without expressing gratitude, you will not only appear rude, but you will likely see the flow of gifts cut off at some point. Gratitude has value. It is given in exchange for gifts, and it bears something of a promise from the grateful one that a favor of some kind is owed.

With respect - you have a very fixed view of something you appear to disapprove of.

I do not disapprove of it. I believe strongly in the social bonds created by gift-giving behavior. It is endemic in human society, and it serves the purpose of making us stronger. I think, rather, that the problem is with the perception that gift-giving is done for no other purpose than as a calculation to curry favor. That may be its effect, but that is not necessarily the motivation that spurs people to give gifts and establish social bonds. What I find interesting is that humans socialize their gods in that way. It is particularly ironic when applied to the perfect Christian "God", because there is theoretically nothing that God needs from us. He doesn't actually need our gratitude, does he? Nor does he need any favors from us. Nevertheless, establishing that kind of bond with God strengthens us immeasurably, because God can do anything on our behalf, if he is so moved. Prayer is more often than not an attempt to influence God's behavior.

I don't eat any meat. I imagine my views on cooking a tasty steak are in the same ball park as your views on prayer

I doubt that. I suspect that you don't eat meat because you have empathy for animals that prevents you from using them as a source of nourishment. You do not feel the same empathy for plants, luckily for you.

 

[sojourner]

You can experience wonder and joy of nature without praying, but I do think that religion gives people a way to understand that very natural feeling.

A sense of wonder and joy is prayer.

 

[Qwert12345]

You probably have a problem with the parable of the guy that wanted some bread from his neighbor,knocked on his door many time's. Jesus said not because of his need's did he get the bread, but because of his persistance. and you have to have someone to pray to it would seem.

but this neighbor was swayed for reasons that presumably would not affect god.this again is an example of applying human qualities to god.but if god is all knowing,why would prayer effect his decisions?if persistance can sway god,then believers should do nothing but pray.right?

 

[Copernicus]

A sense of wonder and joy is prayer.

Any emotion that you associate with a deity could be considered prayer, including anger and frustration. It is just that the non-religious do not associate such emotions with deities, so for them it isn't prayer.

 

[gzusfrk]

but this neighbor was swayed for reasons that presumably would not effect god.this again is an example of applying human qualities to god.but if god is all knowing,why would prayer affect his decisions?if persistance can sway god,then believers should do nothing but pray.right?

pray without ceasing. 1thessalonians 5:17

 

[Qwert12345]

pray without ceasing. 1thessalonians 5:17

i am a bit confused.are you saying the more one prays to god,the greater the chance of him being convinced of your appeal?i doubt this,considering there have been situations where thousands of people have come together in prayer under a single cause (kidnappings,famous individuals near death etc.) where sadly,their prayers go unanswered.i have been convinced of the psychological benefit,but i doubt that prayer affects much else.

 

[sandandfoam]

i have been convinced of the psychological benefit

Is that not enough?

 

[sandandfoam]

That is something that atheists do not share with the religious, because there is no gift giver to be grateful to.

I don't agree. In speaking for all atheists maybe you presume too much? For example my wife is a strong atheist, she has a strong conviction that this whole God business is nonsense. She felt gratitude when all our children were born healthy. According to what you posted she is not an atheist so?

Gratitude is a social grace. If you take gifts without expressing gratitude, you will not only appear rude, but you will likely see the flow of gifts cut off at some point. Gratitude has value. It is given in exchange for gifts, and it bears something of a promise from the grateful one that a favor of some kind is owed.

I can understand that it may be so for you but that does not mean that it follows for me. I do not consider gratitude a social grace - from your pov I may be wrong and I can accept that - but from mine it makes sense.

I do not disapprove of it. I believe strongly in the social bonds created by gift-giving behavior. It is endemic in human society, and it serves the purpose of making us stronger. I think, rather, that the problem is with the perception that gift-giving is done for no other purpose than as a calculation to curry favor. That may be its effect, but that is not necessarily the motivation that spurs people to give gifts and establish social bonds. What I find interesting is that humans socialize their gods in that way. It is particularly ironic when applied to the perfect Christian "God", because there is theoretically nothing that God needs from us. He doesn't actually need our gratitude, does he? Nor does he need any favors from us. Nevertheless, establishing that kind of bond with God strengthens us immeasurably, because God can do anything on our behalf, if he is so moved. Prayer is more often than not an attempt to influence God's behavior.

You are talking about prayer to a God you do not believe in but you know nothing of the God I do believe in.
Why would you presume to know my mind?

I doubt that. I suspect that you don't eat meat because you have empathy for animals that prevents you from using them as a source of nourishment. You do not feel the same empathy for plants, luckily for you.

Indeed

 

[sojourner]

Any emotion that you associate with a deity could be considered prayer, including anger and frustration. It is just that the non-religious do not associate such emotions with deities, so for them it isn't prayer.

'K. But for us -- it is!