Is premarital sex moral or immoral?

[Sand Dancer]

Was Jesus a liberal?

Yes and it infuriated the conservative and legalistic religious leaders of his day. He fed and healed people...for free! The early christians were socialist. You probably don't agree with the OT Jubilee and Sabbatical years I take it, nor do you like the emphasis on helping the widows and orphans as per the prophets.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I've been to liberal churches. You need to respect God's Word. That's your problem. You have your own subjective views apart from God's, which is why you think conservative churches are evil. You are judgmental against them, and you don't like those who judge? Hello?

Jesus put people before dogma and that is what progressive churches do. The first shall be last and the last shall be first. When did Joel Osteen and other fundy pastors put their love of money after people?

 

[Spartan]

I am reading a cool book by John Dominic Crossan about being able to take the Bible seriously and still be Christian. Very interesting.

Contrary to the four Gospel writers and Paul’s affirmation in 1 Corinthians 15, John Dominic Crossan denies the resurrection and believes the corpse was left unburied and most likely eaten by wild dogs.

That's not Christianity he's teaching.

Do you deny the resurrection also?

 

[Spartan]

Jesus put people before dogma and that is what progressive churches do. The first shall be last and the last shall be first. When did Joel Osteen and other fundy pastors put their love of money after people?

Strawman. I don't consider Osteen that conservative. And there's plenty of conservative churches that help the poor.

As for "dogma" - if a person doesn't know and embrace the moral principles of God - and Jesus, who is God and who embraced and taught the laws of God - then they're morally challenged.

You approve of gay sex? Which deity told you that was ok?

 

[Sand Dancer]

Contrary to the four Gospel writers and Paul’s affirmation in 1 Corinthians 15, John Dominic Crossan denies the resurrection and believes the corpse was left unburied and most likely eaten by wild dogs.

That's not Christianity he's teaching.

Do you deny the resurrection also?

Of course I do now but didn't then. Dying and rising god/men were popular in the mystery cults predating Christianity. Not all Christians think the same thing. It's okay. I think if a deity wrote a book, it wouldn't be so full of errors, contradictions, outdated info, plagiarism and horrible evil.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Strawman. I don't consider Osteen that conservative. And there's plenty of conservative churches that help the poor.

As for "dogma" - if a person doesn't know and embrace the moral principles of God - and Jesus, who is God and who embraced and taught the laws of God - then they're morally challenged.

You approve of gay sex? Which deity told you that was ok?

Yes, I worked with many conservative ministries and they wouldn't help unless the people sat through a sermon first. Ugh. Jesus was not morally challenged by putting people first. That's important. Uh, most deities don't address it but I don't think you understand how the Hebrew people wanted to stay separate, so they distanced themselves from things that other groups did, but you need to look into it. People are gay, life has gays, so what?

 

[Maponos]

Ah yes.... Nicholas H. Wolfinger

This 'specialist in semantics' couldn't write a one page guide on how to catch a bus going in the right direction.

That's not a reply.

 

[Spartan]

Of course I do now but didn't then. Dying and rising god/men were popular in the mystery cults predating Christianity. Not all Christians think the same thing. It's okay. I think if a deity wrote a book, it wouldn't be so full of errors, contradictions, outdated info, plagiarism and horrible evil.

You haven't done your homework. And if you think Jesus' resurrection was patterned after a previous deity then name it and show me who copied it and when?

All four Gospels and additional epistles confirm the resurrection. There's also extra-biblical evidences.

Resurrection of Jesus Christ Biblical Extra-biblical Evidences

 

[Sand Dancer]

You haven't done your homework. And if you think Jesus' resurrection was patterned after a previous deity then name it and show me who copied it and when?

All four Gospels and additional epistles confirm the resurrection. There's also extra-biblical evidences.

Resurrection of Jesus Christ Biblical Extra-biblical Evidences

Much of the Bible was taken from previous religions, but that is normal for religion. You can't just introduce something completely different, because people would not trust or be secure with it. Mark does not. It was added to later in history, and extra biblical texts are taken from the gospels.

 

[Spartan]

Much of the Bible was taken from previous religions, but that is normal for religion.

Evidence?

 

[Spartan]

Much of the Bible was taken from previous religions, but that is normal for religion. You can't just introduce something completely different, because people would not trust or be secure with it. Mark does not. It was added to later in history....

You know, there's not a school of theology anywhere that teaches what you're claiming. Harvard doesn't teach that; nor does the school of divinity at Princeton, or any other mainstream seminary/ university. It's crackpot theology, found nowhere except in debate forums by people with extreme theories and no formal theological education.

 

[oldbadger]

That's not a reply.

Oh yes it is!

But, anyway, since I expect that you have learned the art of accurate precis, please would you consider reducing that bloke's waffle in to a paragraph?

Bet you can't, though.....

 

[Sand Dancer]

Evidence?

Trying reading other religions' texts. Try the Ugaritic Texts, the Zoroastrian Avesta, Babylonian and Egyptian myth, Enuma Elish, etc.

 

[Sand Dancer]

You know, there's not a school of theology anywhere that teaches what you're claiming. Harvard doesn't teach that; nor does the school of divinity at Princeton, or any other mainstream seminary/ university. It's crackpot theology, found nowhere except in debate forums by people with extreme theories and no formal theological education.

Actually, yes, there is, but of course no conservative/fundamentalist will admit that. They want to pretend the Bible is different and special.

 

[Maponos]

Oh yes it is!

But, anyway, since I expect that you have learned the art of accurate precis, please would you consider reducing that bloke's waffle in to a paragraph?

Bet you can't, though.....

Again, not a reply.

 

[oldbadger]

Again, not a reply.

Oh, my reply is as clear as daylight.

Sex before marriage between any adult couple whatsoever is reasonable, acceptable, beyond the self-righteous judgement of interfering manipulators, and above all else, private to them if they choose, or not.

Now how clear did you want me to be?

And I knew you couldn't precis that waffle to a paragraph as well. It's psycho-babble!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes it is. But works don't save you. Here's a primer for you on that:

Excerpt:

“If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something
to boast about – but not before God. What does the scripture
say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as
righteousness.” (Romans 4:2-3)

"Initial saving faith is the precursor to works. Abraham was not saved (justified righteous) by performing works (note Genesis chapter 22), he was performing works of a Godly nature because he first was saved and regenerated by faith (Genesis 15:6). Works of a Godly nature are the result of our regeneration and salvation, not the cause of it. Faith by grace is the antecedent of works. It chronologically occurs first. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the point of salvation, He starts the process of Progressive Sanctification, and one of the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-7) is that of causing, or compelling a person, by a change of heart and mind and with the believer’s cooperation, to perform works of a Godly nature. James’ argument addresses that time period of a person’s life, following true salvation and regeneration, when good works are supposed to be in evidence. He is saying, “Now that you claim to be saved, we should be seeing some good works out of you. However, if these good works are not apparent, then your initial faith was probably not genuine, and you were never, either in the eyes of God, nor in the eyes of man, justified righteous.”

Justification by Faith – How believers are declared righteous by God

So much for "They shall know we are Christians by our love," eh?

 

[Maponos]

Oh, my reply is as clear as daylight.

Sex before marriage between any adult couple whatsoever is reasonable, acceptable, beyond the self-righteous judgement of interfering manipulators, and above all else, private to them if they choose, or not.

Now how clear did you want me to be?

And I knew you couldn't precis that waffle to a paragraph as well. It's psycho-babble!

I didn't say sex before marriage was immoral because it's not.

But there is data to suggest that the less sexual partners one has, one has a better chance at having a long term relationship.

 

[Spartan]

Actually, yes, there is, but of course no conservative/fundamentalist will admit that. They want to pretend the Bible is different and special.

And you want to pretend it isn't.

 

[JJ50]

The Bible, which isn't such a good book, is a mere human production which can be interpreted in so many ways, some crazier than others!