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Is pro-gay Christianity really a tenable position? (DIR thread)

Saint Frankenstein

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I thought I'd ask here in the DIR since my thread in the debate forum is a bust and has gone mostly nowhere. This is not a thread for debate, but simply a request for information on how ancient Jews and Christians viewed homosexuality. I am simply trying to get to the truth of the matter, no matter what it is.

Okay, so I generally take the position that Christianity is not against homosexuality and that the verses seeming to pertain to it have been misinterpreted and mistranslated. But lately I'm having some problems with this line of thinking. Is there any evidence that those verses were ever interpreted differently? Were ancient Jews and Christians ever accepting or tolerant of homosexuality? If they were misinterpreted, when did the interpretation change and how was it interpreted originally?

If there isn't evidence that ancient Christians and Jews were accepting or tolerant of homosexual sex, then I have to conclude that the view that homosexual sex is sinful is the correct and traditional reading.
 
jeager106

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
Isn't it hard to believe that the bible was misinterpreted and misunderstood?:eek::eek:
Yet another reason that leads me to conclude that the bible needs studied, not merely read.
Source material should be suspect until one is as sure as one can be that truth is represented.
Add to the misinterpreations, misunderstandings, mistranslations, and the fact that Christendom has falsified scripture, allowed
paganism to infiltrate in order to gain "converts" it becomes almost clear why there are up to 44,000 Christian denominations
all reading the same book.
It's no wonder why thiests throw up their hands in confusion and disgust and become athiests.
Christendom has perpetuated the greatest fraud in the history of mankind.
Hey, don't take my word for it, do the research for yourself.
I'm just another believer not afraid of burning in hell forever.
 
C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
What do you mean by Christian?
The problem with discussing the OP is the lack of an objective meaning for the word Christian.
Usually it varies between "believer in the divinity of Jesus" and " believer in certain human authorities who claim to speak for Jesus".

So exactly what do you mean by "Christian"?
Tom
 
nazz

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Saint Frankenstein said:
I thought I'd ask here in the DIR since my thread in the debate forum is a bust and has gone mostly nowhere. This is not a thread for debate, but simply a request for information on how ancient Jews and Christians viewed homosexuality. I am simply trying to get to the truth of the matter, no matter what it is.

Okay, so I generally take the position that Christianity is not against homosexuality and that the verses seeming to pertain to it have been misinterpreted and mistranslated. But lately I'm having some problems with this line of thinking. Is there any evidence that those verses were ever interpreted differently? Were ancient Jews and Christians ever accepting or tolerant of homosexuality? If they were misinterpreted, when did the interpretation change and how was it interpreted originally?

If there isn't evidence that ancient Christians and Jews were accepting or tolerant of homosexual sex, then I have to conclude that the view that homosexual sex is sinful is the correct and traditional reading.
Click to expand...
It's not an either/or thing. The bible nowhere explicitly condemns homosexuality. However the implicit message, and what existed in terms of practice, was the view that heterosexual unions were blessed and mandated.
 
I

integralgrid

New Member
Trying to unearth which was the ancient perspective on homosexuality starts from a false premise, I believe. While the existence of homosexual acts is documented by the very specific verses of the Old Testament, homosexuality per se is only a recent construction. Sex between men was probably a constant but infrequent occurrence during the biblical times, and it was only the gradual intolerance towards it, culminating with its formal prohibition that has led to the development of homosexuality as a lifestyle. It is to be noted that even with the ancient Greeks, homosexual sex was condoned, but homosexual love was considered a form of weakness and depravation. Homosexual activity as a rite of passage towards manhood was a fairly normal occurrence; however, when this practice started to be seen as socially inadequate, and even reprimanded, it went from being a normal activity to something that men were forced to hide as a secret treasure. What once was only a power game between men, and a way of releasing masculine energy slowly became an issue of love and commitment, and a form of seeking a forbidden pleasure.

All the natural impulses to which civilization imposed a dam could not simply disappear but have found a different course of accomplishment and a whole new specter of justification. Therefore, it is futile to search for biblical or historical arguments supporting tolerance towards homosexuality, when homosexuality itself is a result of intolerance. If Jesus was Himself accepting or not towards homosexual activity is, again, a misleading pursuit, because Jesus neither recommended nor denied any specific course of action, which is obvious in the way he looked upon the old laws as something outdated in their letter and in dare need to be fulfilled in spirit. Trying to make Jesus say or not say something explicit was the very thing Jesus seems to have avoided. If anything is true about Jesus' mission, He tried to get the means of existence unstuck from the very ends humans ascribed to them. The only acceptable end of every means is, in Jesus' eyes, only God (which is to say, an open end, or the means itself). Therefore, there is no human endeavor that can be stopped solely on human grounds; moreover, God's intentions can never be taken at face value. If there will ever come a time when homosexuality will be accepted by the Christian faith, this will not come by reinterpreting the scriptures but by understanding their spirit beyond any recourse to literal interpretation.
 
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Kolibri

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
Leviticus 18:22 seems pretty clear about how homosexual acts are to be viewed. But that is just it. The acts are condemned, not the orientation. This is one of those cases when, due to the severity of the orientation, a man might find himself avoiding sex altogether just as an alcoholic avoids alcohol to keep things in moderation for him personally.

Keeping one's hope in focus of the "real life" will help - as will avoiding opportunities to hurt one's relationship with God. (1 Tim 6:19) Faithful ones deserve our respect and friendship. We can work in harmony with God's will for them by keeping individuals we know with these struggles in our prayers and in our lives. We should be encouraging them when they get downhearted and reminding them that we all have to "fight the fine fight of the faith." (1 Timothy 6:12)
 
J

Johnlove

Active Member
Saint Frankenstein said:
I thought I'd ask here in the DIR since my thread in the debate forum is a bust and has gone mostly nowhere. This is not a thread for debate, but simply a request for information on how ancient Jews and Christians viewed homosexuality. I am simply trying to get to the truth of the matter, no matter what it is.

Okay, so I generally take the position that Christianity is not against homosexuality and that the verses seeming to pertain to it have been misinterpreted and mistranslated. But lately I'm having some problems with this line of thinking. Is there any evidence that those verses were ever interpreted differently? Were ancient Jews and Christians ever accepting or tolerant of homosexuality? If they were misinterpreted, when did the interpretation change and how was it interpreted originally?

If there isn't evidence that ancient Christians and Jews were accepting or tolerant of homosexual sex, then I have to conclude that the view that homosexual sex is sinful is the correct and traditional reading.
Click to expand...
Homosexuality is a lustful feeling toward one of the same sex, given to a person by Satan.

Then Satan tempts that person to entertain that lust, and when a person does what Satan wants, he or she have committed a grave sin.
 
Sand Dancer

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
Leviticus was written by the Hebrews during the time of Babylonian control. The Hebrews made the Holiness Codes to differentiate between themselves and the pagan Babylonians, who engaged in homosexual temple rituals. They thought that God would only bless them if they stayed cultural and religiously separate.
 
J

Johnlove

Active Member
Jesus did not make people homosexual just so he had people he could destroy. As he did in Sodom and Gomorrah.

Also scripture tells us that homosexuals who practice the evil act will never enter the kingdom of God.


(1 Corinthians 6:9-10) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”


(1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”

 
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Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
Saint Frankenstein said:
Another interesting article to take note of: lifeissues.net | The Early Church and Gays
Click to expand...
While interesting, and possibly correct, its author, David Brattston, is not an accredited Biblical scholar (having any degree in the field) but rather a retired lawyer. So, I would regard his writing with a bit of caution.

David Brattston

Canada Christian History Examiner
David W. T. Brattston is a retired lawyer residing in Lunenburg, Nova Scotia, Canada. He has been a self-directed student of ancient Christian writings since a teenager. His mission is to make early Christian literature known and used by all Christians, especially as Christian moral teaching from before A.D. 250 relates to today.
source

______________________________________________________________
​
The same can be said of Faris Malik, author of The Historic Origins of Church Condemnation of Homosexuality who has his master's degree in German literature.
source

_______________________________________________________________
​
RedDragon94's link to What Early Christians believed about Homosexuality, is an article put out by the Church of Christ.

"Churches of Christ are autonomous Christian congregations associated with one another through common beliefs and practices. They seek to base doctrine and practice on the Bible alone. They teach that they are the church written in scripture. They teach that any individual, from the time that the Church began until now, can become part of that church by hearing the truth, believing the truth, repenting from their ways to God's ways, confessing that Jesus in the Bible is Christ, and being baptized for the remission of their sins.

Historically, three hermeneutic approaches have been used among Churches of Christ.
  • Analysis of commands, examples, and necessary inferences;
  • Dispensational analysis distinguishing between Patriarchal, Mosaic and Christian dispensations; and
  • Grammatico-historical analysis."
  • Source: Wikipedia
Regard it as you will, but I'd be very suspicious.
​
 
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J

Johnlove

Active Member
People waste so much time researching about what man knows about God.


A Christian is given the Holy Spirit to teach them about God. If one has a question about God, the ask Jesus/Holy Spirit.


(1 John 2: 27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you; the anointing he gave teaches you everything: you are anointed with truth, not with a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”
 
F

FollowerOfTheLord

Member
In the Bible it says in the last days there will be itching ears, we are definitely in those times where people only want to listen to a sermon that praises them in their unholy sins.

Homosexuality is not only just a sin, but its an abomination to God, a detestable act in which God absolutely hates.
We must remember its the sin God hates, not the sinner.

I'd question anyone who claimed to be Christian, and say they love God, when they are in fact serving the devil in homosexuality.
You cannot be lukewarm with God, He will spit you out, its either all for Him, or all for the devil.
 
F

FollowerOfTheLord

Member
May I also add this, homosexuals claim they were born that way... Hate to break it to em, but they were not born that way, period.
I think homosexuality is demonic, its perverse, and possibly a mental issue.

We need to realize what matters more mans opinion on the matter or Gods opinion, we already know Gods opinion as its plain as day in the OT and NT.
 
C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
FollowerOfTheLord said:
We need to realize what matters more mans opinion on the matter or Gods opinion, we already know Gods opinion as its plain as day in the OT and NT.
Click to expand...

If I had a reason to believe this other than a humans opinion on the subject things would be different. But I don't. And I have found that human beings are notoriously unreliable about subjects that don't have objective evidence.
Tom
 
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