Is progressive revelation believable?

[Trailblazer]

Well as I said above... this is not the claim he made that I object to. It's very simple. Judaism.. all the major Movements in the religion... Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, and Ultra-Orthodox... they all focus on God. It is very very simple to show and prove beyond the shadow of a doubt.

But Christianity and Islam and the Baha’i Faith also focus on God. What is so special about Judaism?

It's not.

if anyone says it is... question their motives and knowledge base. Something is amiss if someone believes that Judaism is universal. That's a misrepresentation of Gaussian proportions.

Maybe it was not stated that it is universal but it was stated that either the Torah or the Noahide Laws would universally apply to everyone after the Messiah comes.

Trailblazer said: They believe that the Messiah is only for Jews

They do?

Yes, in the sense that they believe the Messiah will confirm their religion and vindicate it as the one true religion. This is what gets my goat; I just cannot tolerate any person or group who thinks they are superior, special, chosen, appointed, priestly, etc. It drives me crazy.

Correction: The Moshiach is for Jews... I don't see why other people can't have their own Messiah/Messengers/Prophets/Manifestations. It seems perfectly logical to me.

That is completely illogical to me because there cannot be more than one Messiah! The scriptures of all the religions were pointing to the same Messiah.

Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

Prophecies from World Religion and other sources

Think about it. If every religion had its own Messiah then which one would be the one humanity would follow? Or does it matter that humanity remains divided forever, each with their own religion and their own Messiah.

Judaism stands alone and is not included in the chain of progressive revelation. That's what makes sense to me, if I accept the Baha'i approach as true... the only adjustment I would make... ( forgive me , I'm not trying to be rude ) is to take Judaism off the table and not to include it as part of the Baha'i faith. That's all. It's the easiest solution. Then all that stuff in the Torah is still true valid and pure.

Why do you believe that Judaism is so special that it has to stand alone? Is it because of what the Torah says? I do not believe the Torah was ever intended to be interpreted that way. The Jews were chosen and special during their Dispensation, just as the Christians were chosen and special later, but the Jews cannot retain that place in history forever, because time marches on, and so does God.

I think it is just your interpretation of the Torah which all Jews have that make you think Jews are special.

Is there anything in the Baha'i texts which would prohibit this approach? Does Baha'u'llah ever speak about the Torah directly? If so, what does he say?

I am kind of at a loss when it comes to everything Baha'u'llah has written, because there is so much, but a lot was written in Baha’i World Faith by Abdu’l-Baha about the Jews and the Torah in this chapter: RELIGION AND CIVILIZATION

The chapter reviews Jewish history and concludes with this:

“From this review of the history of the Jewish people we learn that the foundation of the religion of God laid by His Holiness Moses was the cause of their eternal honor and national prestige, the animating impulse of their advancement and racial supremacy and the source of that excellence which will always command the respect and reverence of those who understand their peculiar destiny and outcome. The dogmas and blind imitations which gradually obscured the reality of the religion of God proved to be Israel’s destructive influences causing the expulsion of these chosen people from the Holy Land of their Covenant and promise.”

Trailblazer said: And they believe that when the Messiah comes that everyone will know that Judaism is the one true religion.

I have never heard this, nor have I seen it reflected in Torah, Tanach, Midrash, or Commentary. I'm not an expert. I don't have all that memorized... but... that would be a big deal. And i think I would know.

Well, I should not have said “they” because I have only heard this from one Jewish poster who does not necessarily represent the beliefs of all of Judaism.

Do you know where this idea originated.. is there anything you can provide so that I can chase down this idea? Any hints would be really helpful, if not for this discussion, simply for my own peace of mind.

I heard it from @ IndigoChild5559 on this post, but I think there were also other posts preceding that one:

What will the Second Coming of Christ look like?

I don't believe that at all. None of my friends do either as far as I know. When I'm talking deep with my other spiritual Jewish friends... we don't talk about other religions at all. No one seems to comment about whether or not they are true false or otherwise. They are other. That means they are ignored, not criticized.

But logically speaking, if Jews believe they are the one true religion that means all the other religions are false. They do not have to say it, they believe it. I did not make this up myself; I heard it from Jewish posters.

Further, I could probably bring evidence from Jewish sources to make at least a weak argument that there is no "true" religion in Judaism. There is only God and creation and the commandments that were given to the Jews. That's it.

But they believe it was ONLY given to the Jews and to nobody else because they believe that the Torah is the only valid scripture that ever originated from God. That is the salient problem. Only we have valid scripture. It is the same with the Christians who believe that only the Bible (OT and NT) is valid scripture. WE are the one true religion is what that converts to in plain English.

Maybe this is helpful... the word Kosher... all it means is "fit for use by a Jewish person". That's all. No other judgments are being made based on this designation. it doesn't mean that it's the ultimate in purity and holiness for everyone... not at all. And again, if you don't believe me, I can try to put together some evidence to back up what I'm saying. But i would start a new thread on it in the future.

Thanks. I know that Jewish people do not judge others by their laws. That is similar to what Baha’is believe about Baha’i Laws. We do not believe they apply to anyone except Baha’is but that does not mean that other people are not living a good pure life.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Some people ask why is there multiple religions in the world, which God is true the christians God or the Islamic Allah?

But what if I told you that divine revelation is progressive.

That Prophets / Messengers known as Manifestations of God has been sent in every age in human history and evolution to guide humanity in the right spiritual path, that the holy Bible and holy Qur'an was divine education that was suited for the time and age in which it was revealed in. And that we have a current Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation of God, and current divine scriptures / education for this time and age that we live in right now.
Edit: I've noticed that some people is addressing the "truth is not absolute but relative" statement that I made. So let me put it this way: some truths are not absolute and some truths are relative. It depends what truths are being talked about.

I take the Bible as plenary inspiration, the word choices and meanings. And so I would not take progressive relation in the sense you probably mean

I do think God shows himself in creation, with Abraham, then in Moses with the law With David and others and in the fulness of time through Jesus.... so in a sense... but probably not in the sense you mean

 

[dybmh]

@Trailblazer ,

I want you to know that I deeply appreciate everything that you have written, researched and presented. I don't think that I would be able to comprehend the Baha'i approach to Judaism without your help.

I'm not saying that I fully understand it, but the pieces are starting to link up in my mind. And I feel like I have made the first step towards understanding your POV. It's just a baby step, really. But it's something, so I'm going to try to enjoy it for what it is.

There is so much information, and so many good points made here, that I want to take time, and really contemplate, what you're saying. But not only that, I want to contemplate on what I think you mean by it. The intention, not just the words on the screen that I'm looking at.

Because of that, I hope you will understand that I don't respond just yet. But I do treasure this conversation. And I am honored by your honesty and your willingness to share.

I feel like we will have ample opportunity to continue this dialogue. Perhaps in a more phased manner. This I think will take the pressure off me to try to understand everything all at once. ( It's a bad habit of mine ). And you are cordially invited to send me a message and we can continue to discuss it behind the scenes if you would prefer to continue sooner rather than later... I would be happy to do that. But i think I do need some time to digest everything that I have learned so far, before saying anything else.

Thank you,

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Jews still believe they have the one true religion from God
I'm sorry... no one I know believes this. Is there anything I can do or say to change your mind?

You can try to explain why you do not think that but I doubt it will change my mind.
Please be sure to list the other religions that Jews believe are the truth from God.

Trailblazer said: they do not recognize any religions that came after theirs.

It's not like that. It's very complicated. I don't know if I will do it any justice trying to explain it.. but I'll try. I only hope that you'll believe me... that's all.

In theory a Jewish person is supposed to go from Strength to Strength. That means a consistent flow from one commandment to the other with essentially no gaps in between. I think what you are observing and identifying as "not recognized" is nothing more than Jewish priorities. And those priorities are to spend 100% of their time immersed in Torah and Commandments. Immersed. 100%. That is what the Torah says from a literal fundamentalist point of view.

But that's not how most people practice Judaism. I need to point that out. Only the ultra Orthodox ( as far as I know ) attempt to continuously go from commandment to commandment with no interruptions.

So what I'm describing is theolgy and theory, but it's rarely put into practice.

It's the same this with "not recognizing" any other religion. It doesn't mean it's false. it means... ( forgive me ) its a waste of time for a Torah Observant Jew. It's not false... it's just not a priority. And with 613 commandments, holidays, Torah to learn, charity to give... etc... it's very busy hectic life for a Torah Observant Jew... except for Shabbos...

So it's not a negative judgement that Jews don't "recognize"... it's just practical. That's how I see it at least. And I'm quite sure that many, if not most Jewish people agree.

Thanks for explaining that. Some Baha’is might say the same things about practicing our religion and that we should focus on what Baha’u’llah has enjoined us to do all the time; I am one such Baha’i. Baha’u’llah never told us that we need to study all the older religions. Other Baha’is believe differently and they think we need to know all the older religions practically as well as we know the Baha’i Faith. I consider this ridiculous because it is not even feasible; but from my point of view it is unnecessary because if the only religion we knew was the Baha’i Faith that would be adequate, since I believe that is the religion for this age in history and the religion God wants everyone to follow. Not all Baha’is believe this and even if they did they will not say this but I believe in being honest and I never mince words.

So essentially what Jews believe even though they do not always come right out and say it, is that the Torah is the only valid scripture, so why bother with anything else?

Now let’s be honest. Jews do not believe in Jesus Christ and so they do not recognize the New Testament as scripture, so that is the same as saying Christianity is a false religion. So they have already said that 33% of the world population is following the false prophet Jesus Christ. Then we have Muhammad, who is followed by 22% of the world population. Here is what Jews believe about Him:

“Very few texts in Judaism refer to or take note of the Islamic prophet, Muhammad. Those that do generally reject Muhammad's proclamation of receiving divine revelations from God and label him instead as a false prophet.

In the Middle Ages, it was common for Jewish writers to describe Muhammad as ha-meshuggah ("the madman"), a term of contempt frequently used in the Bible for those who believe themselves to be prophets.[1][2][3]

Maimonides referred to Muhammad as a false prophet and an insane man. In his Epistle to Yemen he wrote "After [Jesus] arose the Madman who emulated his precursor [Jesus], since he paved the way for him. But he added the further objective of procuring rule and submission [talb al-mulk; pursuit of sovereignty] and he invented what was well known [Islam]."[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_views_on_Muhammad​

With all due respect to you, and this is in no way personal, a more arrogant religion than Judaism does not exist. I also consider the Jews completely lost since they have rejected the three Major Prophets that came after Moses. Baha’u’llah had some choice words to say about that but I will not post them on a public forum.

I will add that the reason for this rejection of Jesus and Muhammad is because of misinterpretations of the Torah by men who had no divine authority given to them by God. I do not blame the Jewish people, they just followed their leaders. Baha’u’llah also had some choice words to say about religious leaders who lead their followers astray.

Sure Baha’is have their own religious practices, all religions do, but the salient difference is that we do not believe we are the only true religion from God and we do not believe we are chosen people! We do not believe we were the first religion and we do not believe we will be the last religion. We do not believe that Baha’u’llah was the only prophet of God or that he is superior to any other Prophet, period, end of story. I do not know what Jews think about Moses, but I know that Christians believe Jesus was superior (actually the only way) and Muslims believe that Muhammad was the “best” Prophet and the “last” Prophet.

There is NO WAY you can compare the Baha’i Faith beliefs with any other religious beliefs because we are the only major religion that is truly all-inclusive of other religions. You can listen to all the anti-Baha’i rhetoric on this forum, but I will have a quote from the Writings of Baha’u’llah to refute their garbage.

The Baha’i Faith does not claim to be the first, last, best or only religion from God. We only believe that we are the most current religion from God that meets the requirements of this age.

The Baha’i Faith also does not claim that any Prophet is superior to any other Prophet. We are warned against ever exalting one Prophet over any other:

“Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60

Trailblazer said: Being all-inclusive and tolerant of people who are different from them does not mean they do not believe they superior.

What you're describing here is an attitude that is becoming extinct via attrition. The young people do not behave this way. OK. It's happening naturally at least in America. It is. But I don't blame you for this observation. it makes me sad.. but that doesn't make it false.

It is not about an attitude or a behavior of the followers, it is about the central tenets that the religion teaches; namely that both Jesus and Muhammad were false prophets – 55% of the world is following false prophets according to Judaism and only they, a mere 14 million people, know the real truth from God that is contained in the Torah. That is what it amounts to. There is NO WAY anyone can accuse Baha’is of that, because we believe all divinely revealed scripture is the truth from God, the fact that some scripture is more authentic than other scripture notwithstanding.

All I can say is that in Judaism does not describe Jews as superior. If they behave that way, I propose its a transgression of a commandment. And is not sanctioned by The Torah. I think I know a few places in the Torah where this ( the idea the Judaism is superior ) may be coming from, but I'll let you ask for more detail if it's helpful.

Yes, that would be helpful.

Trailblazer said: Clearly they believe they are superior because they believe they are God's "chosen people"

I have always hated that label. Hated it with a passion.

Chosen for what? To be isolated and given a million different chores to do in order to serve the All-mighty?

No, chosen to be special in God’s eyes for all of eternity. I would sure hate to believe that about myself.

Trailblazer said: so that all-inclusiveness is just a ruse.

Why do you think that Judaism is all inclusive? Did someone tell you this at some point? Is it coming from Torah, Tanach, or Scripture? Is it my behavior that somehow makes you think that my inclusive approach is reflective of Judaism. It's a way to approach Judaism. But technically... I'm sorry to report,Judaism is not inclusive. Not at all.

I was referring to the all-inclusiveness referenced on that website you posted, but I guess that was only promoting all-inclusiveness within the Jewish community. What is Reform Judaism?

So if you can believe me that Judaism isn't inclusive, does that help? Because without this inclusive label, then at least it's not a bait and switch?

I appreciate that because it is honest. I cannot deal with dishonesty. I like to lay my cards on the table and I expect others to do likewise.

 

[Left Coast]

As we can not meet Baha'u'llah now, we have to rely upon those that met him, we have the recorded history of his life and person.

The records show that from birth they are known not to be like other children. There is not teacher that can teach them. Their power of attraction is inherent. Those stories are available for the Bab and Baha'u'llah - This some for Baha'u'llah - Birth and Childhood of Baha'u'llah - Some for the Bab - Stories about the Bab – Reflections on the Bahai Writings

Yikes, Tony. First of all, any sources that aren't from www.bahaiisawesome.org? Preferably sources with citations?

From the first link, in the first paragraph it claims Bahaullah is a descendant of Abraham and Zoroaster. I don't know if you're aware, but last time I checked mainstream Biblical scholarship is pretty much settled that Abraham probably never existed, so...not off to a great start.

In the second mini-section, it says Baha's dad recreated a magnificent piece of art that he gave to the Shah. The Shah was so impressed he exempted Baha's dad's whole village from tax. I'm not a professional historian, Tony, but...does that sound plausible to you? Leaders don't exempt entire towns from tax because they like a guy's handwriting.

In the next section re: Baha's birth and infancy, it says Baha "astounded all who encountered him" (really? did they ask everyone? Everyone?) and that he never cried.

C'mon, Tony. This stuff is hagiography. Myth. It's not historically plausible.

In April 1890 Professor Edward Granville Browne of Cambridge University (Who was not a Baha'i) met Bahá’u’lláh in four successive interviews. Professor Browne wrote of his first meeting: "The face of Him on Whom I gazed I can never forget, though I cannot describe it. Those piercing eyes seemed to read one's very soul; power and authority sat on that ample brow.… No need to ask in whose presence I stood, as I bowed myself before one who is the object of a devotion and love which kings might envy and emperors sigh for in vain." Link - Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 38-40

How do you tell the difference between someone who's eyes "seem to read one's very soul" and someone who's eyes actually read one's very soul?

The written word speaks for itself. It has the power to transform and it is what mankind needs in the age it is given. Thus if one names a challenge the world faces in this day, an answer will be found in the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

Really? Bahaullah wrote down the cure for cancer?

This passage explains that concept;

"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.
We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.
Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live".

Lovely sounding prose, but not terribly substantive.

 

[Trailblazer]

@ dybmh

I truly apologize for throwing all that information at you at once. And now I feel guilty for hitting you with yet one more post after those two long ones… I tend to get single-focused and want to say everything I can cram in a post since I never know when my next chance will be.

I did not expect you to understand all of that; it is not as easy as I might seem to be making it sound. I had to study what Baha’u’llah wrote for a long time before I really I understood it. But I learned most of what I know not just by reading it in books, but by answering questions and explaining it to other people on forums over and over again, till it became imprinted in my mind. That forced me to think about what I read and its implications and why I believe it. In that sense and others these forums have truly been a Godsend.

Take all the time you want to mull it over. I am not going anywhere. I am not able to post much on the forum on my work days, Tuesday-Friday, so I try to make up for lost time when I can. I also have my own forum I have to tend to but it is not very active right now so it does not take much time. Thank God I will have two weeks off at Christmastime and I will be home the whole time.

I am honored by your sincerity and courtesy, two qualities that are most stressed by Baha’u’llah:

“The purpose of the one true God in manifesting Himself is to summon all mankind to truthfulness and sincerity, to piety and trustworthiness, to resignation and submissiveness to the Will of God, to forbearance and kindliness, to uprightness and wisdom. His object is to array every man with the mantle of a saintly character, and to adorn him with the ornament of holy and goodly deeds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 299

“O people of God! I admonish you to observe courtesy, for above all else it is the prince of virtues. Well is it with him who is illumined with the light of courtesy and is attired with the vesture of uprightness. Whoso is endued with courtesy hath indeed attained a sublime station. It is hoped that this Wronged One and everyone else may be enabled to acquire it, hold fast unto it, observe it, and fix our gaze upon it. This is a binding command which hath streamed forth from the Pen of the Most Great Name.”
(Baha’u’llah, Tablet of the World, p. 88.)

Courtesy is not that easy to find in people these days, and especially when people disagree about religion it can get really heated. For that very reason I have pretty much stopped posting to religious people because I do not like to argue, but I am glad I did not stop till I found you.

I think that God has my career “mapped out” in more ways than one. Writing was always my forte, as I was in various colleges for over 15 years doing lots of research and writing before my religious period in life. Little did I know back then that it would come in so handy on these forums.

 

[Brickjectivity]

The best biographies are written AFTER a person leaves this mortal plane. When you see my name listed among the dead on www.findagrave.com, look for a biography about me in Amazon.com Books, but don't be surprised if you don't find one: I am the 37th tzaddik in this generation, heretofore unknown to the other 36.
For the record, I was born on August 3rd, 1948. Numerologists will tell you that 8 (August) + 3 = 11: the number indicating "Illumination". I work well with others and have a good mind and analytical ability. I often inspire by example, rely on persuasion rather than force, am very aware and sensitive (often emotional). And I tend to be idealistic, more of a dreamer than a doer, and creative.
Numerologists will also point out that 1948 adds up to 1 + 9 + 4 +8 = 22, the number of a "Master Builder". I am capable of handling large scale undertakings and leading in new directions; and my approach to problem-solving is typically unorthodox. Also, I desire to work for the good of all.

There is a slight possibility that there is a secret pope who does not know they are the secret pope. You have heard of the Pope and also the Black Pope (who is the superior general of the Jesuit order), but maybe that is not all. We are not privy to knowledge of the dark protocols within the Roman Catholic organization. Now I am not the first person to think like this. There are ancient ideas about having a king who does not know they are the king, and it is argued that this is the best way to have a philosopher king. Who knows but maybe you could be secretly selected through alleged dark protocols since you're a Tzaddik. Or it could be Wizanda. Or me. I definitely do not know that I am a secret king though. Furthest thing from my mind. Besides it would disqualify me to know.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Coming to certainty might be difficult for some people, maybe even most people, but not for all people. I know a Baha'i who read one page of Baha'u'llah's Writings and became a Baha'i that day. That was over 50 years ago and he never questioned it since. I know another Baha'i who studied it for over six years before he became a Baha'i, but he has never wavered in his belief since that time.

My wife read a prayer on the wall of a friends place by Abdul'Baha and asked where it came from, when told the Baha'i Faith she then asked how to become a Baha'i.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

My wife read a prayer on the wall of a friends place by Abdul'Baha and asked where it came from, when told the Baha'i Faith she then asked how to become a Baha'i.

Regards Tony

My husband wanted to be Catholic but he realized he could not believe in the Church doctrines...
During this time he was in the Army and his dad who was a Baha'i gave him the book entitled The Wine of Astonishment and he had stashed it in the bottom of his foot locker.

One night he said prayers for God to guide him to the right choice even if it was not what he wanted and then he woke up the next day and remembered that he had put that book in his foot locker, went right to it, read it, and shortly after that he became a Baha'i... That was about 55 years ago.

 

[Dawnofhope]

A key may be that an important correction for the doctrine of the Trinity was given - The Station of Jesus Christ as a Messenger of God was confirmed in the Quran.

That distinction is a foundation to the Message given by God in this Day, it is a necessary piece of the bigger puzzle, it removes a piece that is not part of the puzzle.
@Terry Sampson

Regards Tony

Terry, based on our past conversations has a major issue with Muhammad/Allah. He does not believe Muslims worship the same God as the Christians or Jews. Similarly he doesn’t believe Baha’is and Christians worship the same God either.

 

[Terry Sampson]

You have heard of the Pope and also the Black Pope (who is the superior general of the Jesuit order), but maybe that is not all. We are not privy to knowledge of the dark protocols within the Roman Catholic organization. Now I am not the first person to think like this.

I was familiar with the fact that there were, during the Western Schism, two popes: the Antipope John XXIII and the rightful Pope Gregory VI. But I was not aware of the two pope tale that I think you're referring to until Ecco Felino posted

which scared the bejeezus out of me.

There are ancient ideas about having a king who does not know they are the king, and it is argued that this is the best way to have a philosopher king.

That's new to me, although I knew Rudyard Kipling's tale of "The Man Who Would Be King" which isn't the same thing you're talking about. The two-pope, two-king theories encourage the current conspiracy theory held by Trump supporters regarding "the Deep State". That stuff is beyond my pay grade. I'm currently just a really low-grade dirt pile moving through Space and Time. That, of course, could change at any time.

Who knows but maybe you could be secretly selected through alleged dark protocols since you're a Tzaddik.

If indeed I ever was selected, I assure you that I was not secretly selected through any dark protocols here on earth, nor was I selected because of any merit that I myself have earned. My self-styled label as "the 37th tzaddik" was my way of introducing the notion that I have been the beneficiary of the faith of others, whose shoes I was not worthy to kneel and remove. I myself am not one of the Lamed Vav but I have met some, and I am here to declare that they exist in every generation, ... and to give the Baha'i a hard time.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Terry, based on our past conversations

Amen.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Amen.

Reminds me of this;

"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

@Vouthon ,
We are discussing some weighty issues, particularly in regards Divine Revelation and Judicial systems that would govern states, nations and empires. I can see its a field of enquire you have spent time reflecting in regards the New Testament, comparative religion and church/world history.

In regards the New Testament, the apostles of Christ were clear in consciously abrogating Mosaic law and developing a theology that largely dispensed with the law. From a Baha’i perspective they were right to take this approach.

Abdul-Bahá at a table talk given in Akka during the early twentieth century made some strong statements which support this:

Question.—Is the ablution of baptism useful and necessary, or is it useless and unnecessary? In the first case, if it is useful, why was it abrogated? And in the second case, if it is useless, why did John practice it?

Answer.—The change in conditions, alterations and transformations are necessities of the essence of beings, and essential necessities cannot be separated from the reality of things. So it is absolutely impossible to separate heat from fire, humidity from water, or light from the sun, for they are essential necessities. As the change and alteration of conditions are necessities for beings, so laws also are changed and altered in accordance with the changes and alterations of the times. For example, in the time of Moses, His Law was conformed and adapted to the conditions of the time; but in the days of Christ these conditions had changed and altered to such an extent that the Mosaic Law was no longer suited and adapted to the needs of mankind; and it was, therefore, abrogated. Thus it was that Christ broke the Sabbath and forbade divorce. After Christ four disciples, among whom were Peter and Paul, permitted the use of animal food forbidden by the Bible, except the eating of those animals which had been strangled, or which were sacrificed to idols, and of blood. They also forbade fornication. They maintained these four commandments. Afterward, Paul permitted even the eating of strangled animals, those sacrificed to idols, and blood, and only maintained the prohibition of fornication.

To recapitulate: our meaning is that the change and modification of conditions, and the altered requirements of different centuries and times, are the cause of the abrogation of laws. For a time comes when these laws are no longer suitably adapted to conditions. Consider how very different are the requirements of the first centuries, of the Middle Ages, and of modern times. Is it possible that the laws of the first centuries could be enforced at present? It is evident that it would be impossible and impracticable. In the same manner, after the lapse of a few centuries, the requirements of the present time will not be the same as 96 those of the future, and certainly there will be change and alteration. In Europe the laws are unceasingly altered and modified; in bygone years, how many laws existed in the organizations and systems of Europe, which are now abrogated! These changes and alterations are due to the variation and mutation of thought, conditions and customs. If it were not so, the prosperity of the world of humanity would be wrecked.

For example, there is in the Pentateuch a law that if anyone break the Sabbath, he shall be put to death. Moreover, there are ten sentences of death in the Pentateuch. Would it be possible to keep these laws in our time? It is clear that it would be absolutely impossible. Consequently, there are changes and modifications in the laws, and these are a sufficient proof of the supreme wisdom of God.

This subject needs deep thought. Then the cause of these changes will be evident and apparent.

Blessed are those who reflect!

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 93-96

As Abdul-Bahá was authorised by Bahá’u’lláh in His Will and Testament to be the interpreter of His cause, so a Baha’i perspective would largely be in agreement with the approach taken by the apostles, including Paul whom Peter endorses 2 Peter 3:14-16.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Reminds me of this; "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

I know it well and have had occasion to say it often, here in RF and off-line.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I know it well and have had occasion to say it often, here in RF and off-line.

I have called out Ya Baha'ul Abha from mountain tops. That call was for all people and all Faiths and no Faith.

Such is this world, such is our choices, in the Name of God.

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

Terry, based on our past conversations has a major issue with Muhammad/Allah. He does not believe Muslims worship the same God as the Christians or Jews. Similarly he doesn’t believe Baha’is and Christians worship the same God either.

For what it's worth this is where I'm headed too... Purely based on the words of the responses in this thread ( not their intention ), It doesn't appear that Judaism worships the same God as Baha'i either...

 

[Aupmanyav]

Not if that Prophet comes with proofs of His mission.

Yeah, the Maid of Heaven. Who can deny her!

I have called out Ya Baha'ul Abha from mountain tops. That call was for all people and all Faiths and no Faith.
Such is this world, such is our choices, in the Name of God.

perhaps the strain of going up the mountain got you. What was the reaction of people around you, if any were there! I am sure they must have looked at you wonderingly. Making a call for all people and all faiths and no faith. Do you think your crying aloud from a mountain makes any difference, serve any purpose. I suppose you later realized that it was a crazy thing to do, utterly useless.

 

[Dawnofhope]

For what it's worth this is where I'm headed too... Purely based on the words of the responses in this thread ( not their intention ), It doesn't appear that Judaism worships the same God as Baha'i either...

I have no problem with either your sincere belief or Terry’s. If your understanding of Deuteronomy 28 is that the laws of Moses are immutable and unchanging for all time and a curse be on your family if you were to change, there can be compromises with Christianity, Islam or the Baha’i Faith. I wish you well on that path.

 

[dybmh]

I have no problem with either your sincere belief or Terry’s. If your understanding of Deuteronomy 28 is that the laws of Moses are immutable and unchanging for all time and a curse be on your family if you were to change, there can be compromises with Christianity, Islam or the Baha’i Faith. I wish you well on that path.

What I am focusing on right now is the difference between the intended message ( One God ) with what I am reading in this thread. I feel like this intention is pure and true. Because of this, my challenge is to better understand what has been said.