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Is prostitution wrong?

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
That would be the same as prosecuting drug users over dealers.

Not really. Arresting dealers addresses the supply and helps get at the source. Sex is unlimited in supply and is more "crowd sourced" as it were. There's a This American Life sotry where a guy describes exactly how he turned his girlfriend out for tricks. The women are the victims of coerced prostitution, not the johns. With drugs, the buyers are typically addicts, yes, and need treatment rather than jail time, but it's the dealers who control how much crack is in the neighborhood.

Name and shame the johns and get the women some help if you want to end prostitution.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
I was going to say something along this note, and I kept deciding not to wade into it. A year ago or so I looked into the prostitution debate, and I can't find a modern system where legalized prostitution has worked well. Ideally, what consenting adults do is their business, but criminals and abusers seem to co-opt the sex trade just as much where it's legalized. I don't know how much work it would take to enforce a safe, consensual system - by the looks of it, far more work than is being done.
I haven't studied this issue to any great deal, but I tried to advance this point a few days ago, and I am a little dismayed that most advocates for legalizing prostitution claim to be motivated by standard consequentialist principles of harm reduction, and totally dismiss the question of why legalization isn't helping in the places where it has been done already.
 

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
I haven't studied this issue to any great deal, but I tried to advance this point a few days ago, and I am a little dismayed that most advocates for legalizing prostitution claim to be motivated by standard consequentialist principles of harm reduction, and totally dismiss the question of why legalization isn't helping in the places where it has been done already.

Has it really not helped at all? Do we know? Are we comparing apples and oranges contrasting Western countries with Asian ones, for example. Is it because there are no good regulations or because they're not followed through on? Does that just mean we need to do a better job at it?

It's not enough just to say it hasn't helped, we need actual data. I lean towards decriminalization/legalization on principle, but we need data.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
I don't either. I keep encountering such embedded misogyny in so many subcultures I'm losing hope in the idea of it being safer in a legal and regulated system.
I've noticed that too, and I was thinking of this problem and wondering whether legalized brothels would necessarily be much safer, after thinking back to Elliot Spitzer's hooker scandal a few years ago. Spitzer was purchasing the services of high cost escort services, which in places like Washington D.C. have almost all of the advantages as a legal business. One of the interesting back stories was that Spitzer was on their problem trick list, and there were many other high-rolling politicians and businessmen who had kinky, usually risky and dangerous sexual needs that most call girls did not want to take. But there are always girls who will do whatever it is for the money! So, Spitzer had at least one girl...who was apparently trying to raise a lot of money as fast as she could in the hope of starting a singing career....to take the money.

This sort of thing would continue on whether the brothel was legal or not, since there are lots of perverse wealthy men, and lots of desperate young women (especially now) in need of money! Add that to the issue of the female slave trade which has continued unabated in the legalized prostitution zones, and it doesn't appear that legalization of prostitution would solve much of any of the social problems that deal with this issue. It could end up making things worse, as being legal could apply the veneer of legitimacy and respectability that the johns presently don't have, regardless of how much money they've got.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
Has it really not helped at all? Do we know? Are we comparing apples and oranges contrasting Western countries with Asian ones, for example. Is it because there are no good regulations or because they're not followed through on? Does that just mean we need to do a better job at it?

It's not enough just to say it hasn't helped, we need actual data. I lean towards decriminalization/legalization on principle, but we need data.
I'm not sure. But, in response to another previous post, I started thinking that there is going to have to be change in the way that men think about women, which seems to have gotten worse where I live over the years instead of getting better. Pornography hasn't come up as a subject here, but I think that the glut of pornography available online now, especially to young boys, is warping their attitudes and normalizing a lot of things they see, and then they expect it from their girlfriends. Porn seems to have become increasingly extreme and violent as the formerly lucrative industry is having a hard time dealing with pirating and free porn on the internet. Social ills likely resist being compartmentalized and dealt with separately, so we probably have a number of different factors weighing in and making society sicker, and making that question of whether prostitution is better dealt with through legalization, a lot more difficult to answer.

I've come across a couple of psychology articles of late that speculate that the increasing identification by teenage girls as lesbian or bisexual in surveys may be due in part because of fear or discomfort for the ways boys are acting now and what they are expecting from girlfriends. No doubt the older boys with money who go out and buy sex are also trying buy a lot of what they see in pornos and want to experience in real life. Not that it can't be done safely, but I can see how it will increase misogyny, objectification of young women, and lead to bad consequences whether the prostitution is legal or not.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Has it really not helped at all? Do we know? Are we comparing apples and oranges contrasting Western countries with Asian ones, for example. Is it because there are no good regulations or because they're not followed through on? Does that just mean we need to do a better job at it?

It's not enough just to say it hasn't helped, we need actual data. I lean towards decriminalization/legalization on principle, but we need data.

One of my links provided data. But I suspect you'll just say, "we need different data."
 

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
One of my links provided data. But I suspect you'll just say, "we need different data."
Your only link provided data about prostitution in its illegal state, yes. Where are the statistics on how or whether legalization changes that data.
(So yes, we need more data, because what you provided isn't what I was talking about.)

However to show you that I read your link, here's the part after the data that talks about what to do about it:

Women in prostitution are targeted as the problem instead of making the sex industry problematic and challenging the mass male consumption of women and children in commercial sex.
Agreed here, this is a problem.

This is institutionalized when governments and NGOs argue for the medicalization of prostitution when they propose laws on prostitution which subject women to periodic medical check-ups. It is stated that women in the sex industry would be better protected if they submitted, or were required to submit, to health and especially STD screening. The way in which sex industries are responsible for the widespread health problems of women and children is mystified with proposals to implement health checks of women in the industry. No proposals have been forthcoming, from those who would propose both mandatory and voluntary medical surveillance for women in the sex industry, to medically monitor the men who would purchase sex.
Which is true, unfortunately it's probably not possible to monitor the customers. It is also typically outside of the scope of government outside of age limits. Instead, requirements of condom usage are the best protection.


On the other hand, proposals to medicalize female genital mutilation have been soundly rejected by women’s groups. Women’s human rights organizations have refuted arguments that girls and women undergoing genital cutting would be better protected from its health risks and physical trauma if it was performed in hospitals under trained medical supervision. Although policies and programs that medicalize female genital mutilation may reduce some injury and infection, women’s groups have stressed that these policies and programs do not address or end the abuse of women’s human rights represented by the very institutionalization of this unnecessary and mutilating surgery in a medical context.
This feels like a nonsequitor. FGM is unncessary mutilation performed by adults to minors. If an adult woman wanted her clitoris removed and her labia stitched up, besides pondering her mental health she's quite capable of making that decision for herself. Comparing it to prostitution doesn't make sense here.


The same is true with current attempts to medicalize prostitution. No action will stabilize the sex industry more than legitimating prostitution through the health care system. If medical personnel are called upon to monitor women in prostitution, as part of "occupational health safety," we will have no hope of eradicating the industry.
I'd argue there's no hope of eradicating it ever, quite frankly. Not going to eradicate any form of human behavior, only regulate it or punish it.



Furthermore, from a health perspective alone, it is inconceivable that medicalization of women in the industry will reduce infection and injury without concomitant medicalization of the male buyers.
A claim, but not backed up by anything.


Thus medicalization, which is rightly viewed as a consumer protection act for men rather than as a real protection for women, ultimately protects neither women nor men.
A conclusion that's not terribly supported.

As with other forms of violence against women, eradicating the health burden of prostitution entails addressing but going beyond its health effects. To address the health consequences of prostitution, the international human rights community must understand that prostitution harms women and that in addition to needing health services, women must be provided with the economic, social and psychological means to leave prostitution.
I agree that women who wish to leave prostitution should get help and women who are unwilling participants should OBVIOUSLY be given help rather than punished.

Until prostitution is accepted as violence against women and a violation of women’s human rights, the health consequences of prostitution cannot be addressed adequately. Conversely, until the health burden of prostitution is made visible, the violence of prostitution will remain hidden.
I agree that it can be violence against women but that it is not necessarily so.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
Well, you could start with wikipedia's discussion of prostitution in Nevada and, in particular, the section on the problems with legal brothels.
I am not doing your homework.
If you are unable or unwilling to present even one source...
 

Ladybug

New Member
Woman don't want to be prostitutes. Usually they are put in that position by having no other choice or financial means to support themselves.
I feel bad for the women, but if both parties are consenting i think it should be legalized.
I think that the U.S should do what a lot of other European countries are doing, and that is making brothels legal and street solicitation illegal.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
Woman don't want to be prostitutes. Usually they are put in that position by having no other choice or financial means to support themselves.
I feel bad for the women, but if both parties are consenting i think it should be legalized.
I think that the U.S should do what a lot of other European countries are doing, and that is making brothels legal and street solicitation illegal.
Some woman do, in fact, want to be prostitutes.
Though I will concede the idea that the ones who do are a small minority.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
I am sure some women do the job out of choice for sure. Much better money that working for low wages in WallMart etc..

When I was younger and out of work there were times I wished I were a woman so that I could earn some money this way.
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
Prostitution is wrong as no women should be put in a position where she has to sell her self for money, its the responsibility of all men to protect women. No women should be forced to sell herself by any man or another women, self dignity should be the first lesson for every young girl, but if the woman knowingly and consciously decides to become a prostitute without any influence from others then she should be respected for her profession. But in the end its up to men to not even have this profession in place.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
Prostitution is wrong as no women should be put in a position where she has to sell her self for money, its the responsibility of all men to protect women. No women should be forced to sell herself by any man or another women, self dignity should be the first lesson for every young girl, but if the woman knowingly and consciously decides to become a prostitute without any influence from others then she should be respected for her profession. But in the end its up to men to not even have this profession in place.
Really?
And you think all prostitutes are female?
You think that only men solicit these female prostitutes?

Wow.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
Satya:

sounds like you'd have to completely change the way many men think and act.

To most men , sex is the number 1 reason for existence - if they can't get it in the usual way then they will pay a girl for it.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
Satya:

sounds like you'd have to completely change the way many men think and act.

To most men , sex is the number 1 reason for existence - if they can't get it in the usual way then they will pay a girl for it.
What is the "usual way"?
How do you know that the "usual way" is not paying for it?

Or do you limit the phrase "paying for it" to merely cash transactions?

I am waiting for implants that allow you to slide your credit card in their butt crack.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Hi Watchmen,

We've already discussed STD's, forced prostitution, and violence against women of the night.

Maybe you missed the part where those in favor of legalization have all agreed that it would be regulated. That means no STD's, no forced prostitution, no pimps, no violence.

I'm sure those things would still exist, but they would be greatly diminished -- look at it in the context of Prohibition. Making alcohol illegal ramped up the violence because it was profitable to an underground industry. Once alcohol was legal again, all the money was redirected to regulated sources of alcohol and suddenly the criminal industry collapsed.

Scumbags will always exist in any industry, but legalization and regulation will diminish them to negligible levels. Legalizing and regulation would help, not hurt, prostitutes and those that use their services.

Shame on you for injecting reason into the discussion. ;)

Are current legalized prostitution practices idyllic? Of course not. Legalized and regulated alcohol sales, prescription meds, high fructose corn syrup and processed foods (I'm totally serious here)....people misuse and abuse what is offered. But because people can misuse and abuse, as much as it's been shown that legalization hasn't been the slam dunk answer that people hope it to be, neither is across-the-board prohibition.

So, let's talk about real solutions to the real problems. What are the real problems where prostitution enters the discussion? Is it infidelity, failed marriages, and the desacralization of sex? Is it trafficking, disease, strangulation, beatings, rape, and murder?

What is more important? And what are the solutions?

The safety of women, underage girls and boys, the transgendered, and some men are at stake, and that's what should be fought for.
 
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