Is punishment for apostasy evil?

[Milton Platt]

By apostasy I am referring to leaving a religion. Is it morally wrong to punish those who leave a religion and/or lose faith? What if they actively try to convince others?

I say, both are very immoral and contrary to progress of understanding. What are your thoughts?

It equates to having "thought police". Punishing people for what they think is stupid. Besides, you would only be punishing people when they expressed their thoughts, either verbally or through actions. You would not punish for being apostate, but for expressing it. So half of your congregation could actually be apostate and not punished because they just kept their mouth shut.

 

[Milton Platt]

What was your definition of "apostasy" in the OP?

"This term in Greek (a·po·sta·siʹa) comes from the verb a·phiʹste·mi, literally meaning “stand away from.” The noun has the sense of “desertion, abandonment or rebellion.” (Acts 21:21) In classical Greek the noun was used to refer to political defection.

The Greek Septuagint uses the term at Genesis 14:4 with reference to such a rebellion. However, in the Christian Greek Scriptures it is used primarily with regard to religious defection; a withdrawal or abandonment of the true cause, worship, and service of God, and hence an abandonment of what one has previously professed and a total desertion of principles or faith. The religious leaders of Jerusalem charged Paul with such an apostasy against the Mosaic Law.
It may properly be said that God’s Adversary was the first apostate, as is indicated by the name Satan. He caused the first human pair to apostatize. (Gen 3:1-15; John 8:44) Following the Flood, there was a rebellion against the words of the God of Noah. (Ge 11:1-9) Job later found it necessary to defend himself against the charge of apostasy on the part of his three supposed comforters. (Job 8:13; 15:34; 20:5) In his defense Job showed that God grants no audience to the apostate (Job 13:16), and he also showed the hopeless state of one cut off in apostasy. (Job 27:8; compare also Elihu’s statement at 34:30; 36:13.) In these cases the Hebrew noun cha·nephʹ is used, meaning “[one] alienated from God,” that is, an apostate. The related verb cha·nephʹ means “be inclined away from the right relation to God,” or “pollute, lead to apostasy.”
Among the varied causes of apostasy set forth in apostolic warnings were: lack of faith (Heb 3:12), lack of endurance in the face of persecution (Heb 10:32-39), abandonment of right moral standards (2Pe 2:15-22), the heeding of the “counterfeit words” of false teachers and “misleading inspired utterances” (2Pet 2:1-3; 1Tim 4:1-3; 2Tim 2:16-19; compare Prov 11:9), and trying “to be declared righteous by means of law” (Gal 5:2-4).

According to Isaiah 24:5, the land of Israel became “polluted [cha·nephahʹ] because its inhabitants", led into apostasy by a succession of evil kings, "had bypassed the laws, changed the regulation, broken the indefinitely lasting covenant.” No mercy was to be granted them in the predicted destruction.—Isa 9:17; 33:11-14; Zep 1:4-6.

Apostates often seek to make others their followers. (Ac 20:30; 2Pet 2:1, 3) Such ones willfully abandoning the Christian congregation thereby become part of the “antichrist.” (1Jo 2:18, 19) As with the apostate Israelites, destruction is likewise foretold for apostates from the Christian congregation.—2Pet 2:1; Heb 6:4-8" (excerpts Insight Volumes)

Apostasy isn't just changing your mind....it is more complex than that as the Bible shows.

You do realize that someone who decides to become a Christian when they were formerly of another religious faith is also apostate???

 

[firedragon]

You do realize that someone who decides to become a Christian when they were formerly of another religious faith is also apostate???

You mean if he was a Jew and became a Christian he is an apostate in the eyes of the Jews? I mean as an example.

I would like to hear your thoughts, if you have time only.

Thank you.

 

[Milton Platt]

You mean if he was a Jew and became a Christian he is an apostate in the eyes of the Jews? I mean as an example.

I would like to hear your thoughts, if you have time only.

Thank you.

I mean if the person was of virtually any other religion on the planet and he became a Christain, those in his original religion would view him as apostate

 

[Acim]

By apostasy I am referring to leaving a religion. Is it morally wrong to punish those who leave a religion and/or lose faith? What if they actively try to convince others?

I say, both are very immoral and contrary to progress of understanding. What are your thoughts?

I'm yet to find a situation where punishment (intentionally cause physical pain) is morally right. I'm confident that covers this inquiry.

If punishment equals depriving someone of money, or restricting access to things that others take for granted, I'll admit that I'm less confident on whether that is morally wrong.

 

[firedragon]

I'm yet to find a situation where punishment (intentionally cause physical pain) is morally right. I'm confident that covers this inquiry.

If punishment equals depriving someone of money, or restricting access to things that others take for granted, I'll admit that I'm less confident on whether that is morally wrong.

Its morally wrong. Dont you think? Even if you suddenly wish to worship satan, its your personal wish. And besides, thats probably because you havent kept a good example for that individual to stay with your faith.

Secondarily, if he is doing so for some other benefit, like conversion for money, still thats his wish.

When I say 'you' there I dont mean you Acim.

 

[12jtartar]

fire dragon,
The answer to this question should be thought over carefully.
In the first place, punishment by whom??? Today, and by humans, punishment of any kind for apostasy, is wrong.
There is a great difference between men and God. The Mosaic Law Covenant required punishment for apostasy, because all Jews were in a Covenant with God, Himself. The punishment was death!!! Read the entire 13th chapter of Deuteronomy.
But what about today, since no one is under The Mosaic Law Covenant, because it ended with the death of The Messiah, or Christ, Jesus? Colossians 2:13,14, Galatians 3:7-14, Romans 3:20-24, 4:13-15, 6:14,15, 7:6, 8:1-3
In the first century, at Pentecost of 33CE, God started another group that would, a little later. Be called Christians, Acts 11:26, 2:121. This group was under the New Covenant that Jesus ratified on the night before his death, Luke 22:19,20. The New Covenant superseded the Old Mosaic Law Covenant, Hebrews 8:6-13, and was a far superior Covenant, because it was based on the precious blood of Jesus, God's son, and not on the blood of goats and Bulls, as was the Mosaic Law Covenant, Hebrews 9:13-15.
It was necessary for the Jews to leave the Mosaic Law Covenant if they wanted to remain His Chosen people. None of the Jews that remained in Judaism received the powerful gifts of the Holy Spirit, as did the Christians, Acts 5:32, 2:36-38. If the Jews wanted to remain in God's favor they had to recognize and accept the New Covenant, which could make them perfect, in God' eyes, Hebrews 10:1, 11, 14, 15-18.
Just before Jesus went back to heaven, he gave his disciples instructions to preach and teach, and baptize people of all nations, Matthew 28:19,20, Acts 1:8. This great, worldwide preaching meant that all who worshiped the only true God must leave their False religion and join the ONE religion that God blesses, Ephesians 4:3-6, John 17:3, Matthew 24:14. The whole idea of Christianity was to learn God's word, and then teach to others, 1Timothy 4:16, 2Timothy 2:2-5, 1Corinthians 9:16-18, 2Timothy 4:1-5.
Just as there was only ONE ark in Noah's day to save humankind, so today there is only ONE faith that God accepts. How is going to judge the world by Jesus, Romans 3:5,6, Acts 17:30,32. All men will be judged by their following Jesus' footsteps, 1Peter 2:21, and adhering to God's word, which was The Way in the first century, and IS The Way, today, Acts 9:2,19:9. Any who sincerely search for that Way will find it, because God is using both men and angels to search for those with Google hearts, Matthew 13:13-15.

 

[Draka]

Of course punishment is wrong. I'll even throw in that it is wrong whether the punishment comes from man or a god.

With men it's just ridiculous because we are talking about belief here. We don't punish people who believe that Kanye West is awesome or that "Hotline Bling" by Drake is a good song, and those things probably should warrant some punishment, so why punish people for any other belief or lack thereof?

With a god it is just as, if not more so, ridiculous. If a god is upset that people have turned away from following it then there is no one to blame but that god. I mean, it's not much of a god if it can't convince people well enough to keep believing in it.

 

[Acim]

Its morally wrong. Dont you think? Even if you suddenly wish to worship satan, its your personal wish. And besides, thats probably because you havent kept a good example for that individual to stay with your faith.

Secondarily, if he is doing so for some other benefit, like conversion for money, still thats his wish.

When I say 'you' there I dont mean you Acim.

I am 50/50 on the morally wrong part regarding depriving finances and/or restricting same access as others are granted. I lean toward morally wrong. While this inquiry is in religious debates section, I was thinking from the get go about those who deviate from the consensus (or I might say cult) of 'global warming is real,' along with the 'end is near' type rhetoric. Those persons, that deviate, strike me as being very visibly punished, but not in any physical way (at least I hope not). Those who disagree with the cult label would only bolster the point that it is clearly not only religion that does this. While in theory, an individual that deviates is 'free to choose as they wish,' I think that is a good example of how the granted freedom is superficial, at best. Ridicule is far more likely, and denial of funding seems entirely likely. Also seems like there are plenty of issues today where if on the wrong side of the political angle, the funding will be limited and seemingly all agree that is good and right under the broad name of 'science.' When a religion does this, we see it as blatantly wrong, but I don't feel it is consistent. I think shunning, ridiculing, and deny equal access to funding is actually considered good and right in many endeavors where a person is seen as deviating from the norm.

 

[leibowde84]

Faith is between you and God. Your faith, what your heart actually says is known only to you and God.

How do you even know when someone has left your faith?

And even if you know, that person has left your faith because he doesnt believe in it anymore. Thats your fault. Maybe you acted like an idiot and he blamed it on your faith. So if you wanna punish someone, punish yourself.

In the army, if you betray your army and join the opposing forces, your punishment is severe. But this is not an army, this is your personal faith. No one is fighting against another army.

You can invite with kind words and wise discourse only. And there is no compulsion in religion.
Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones. - (Quran 16:125)

What people do is utter nonsense.

Just to be clear, I am referring to those who explicitly leave their faith.

 

[firedragon]

fire dragon,
The answer to this question should be thought over carefully.
In the first place, punishment by whom??? Today, and by humans, punishment of any kind for apostasy, is wrong.
There is a great difference between men and God. The Mosaic Law Covenant required punishment for apostasy, because all Jews were in a Covenant with God, Himself. The punishment was death!!! Read the entire 13th chapter of Deuteronomy.
But what about today, since no one is under The Mosaic Law Covenant, because it ended with the death of The Messiah, or Christ, Jesus? Colossians 2:13,14, Galatians 3:7-14, Romans 3:20-24, 4:13-15, 6:14,15, 7:6, 8:1-3
In the first century, at Pentecost of 33CE, God started another group that would, a little later. Be called Christians, Acts 11:26, 2:121. This group was under the New Covenant that Jesus ratified on the night before his death, Luke 22:19,20. The New Covenant superseded the Old Mosaic Law Covenant, Hebrews 8:6-13, and was a far superior Covenant, because it was based on the precious blood of Jesus, God's son, and not on the blood of goats and Bulls, as was the Mosaic Law Covenant, Hebrews 9:13-15.
It was necessary for the Jews to leave the Mosaic Law Covenant if they wanted to remain His Chosen people. None of the Jews that remained in Judaism received the powerful gifts of the Holy Spirit, as did the Christians, Acts 5:32, 2:36-38. If the Jews wanted to remain in God's favor they had to recognize and accept the New Covenant, which could make them perfect, in God' eyes, Hebrews 10:1, 11, 14, 15-18.
Just before Jesus went back to heaven, he gave his disciples instructions to preach and teach, and baptize people of all nations, Matthew 28:19,20, Acts 1:8. This great, worldwide preaching meant that all who worshiped the only true God must leave their False religion and join the ONE religion that God blesses, Ephesians 4:3-6, John 17:3, Matthew 24:14. The whole idea of Christianity was to learn God's word, and then teach to others, 1Timothy 4:16, 2Timothy 2:2-5, 1Corinthians 9:16-18, 2Timothy 4:1-5.
Just as there was only ONE ark in Noah's day to save humankind, so today there is only ONE faith that God accepts. How is going to judge the world by Jesus, Romans 3:5,6, Acts 17:30,32. All men will be judged by their following Jesus' footsteps, 1Peter 2:21, and adhering to God's word, which was The Way in the first century, and IS The Way, today, Acts 9:2,19:9. Any who sincerely search for that Way will find it, because God is using both men and angels to search for those with Google hearts, Matthew 13:13-15.

Okay I understand your post. Thank you very much taking time for that, and I agree.

 

[12jtartar]

Draka,
Your reasoning is, at the very best dereism!!!
In the first place, the God that made the heavens and the earth, who gave life to all things, definitely has the right to tell mankind who they should worship, Acts 17:24-31. The thing is; God does not force people to worship Him, but His purpose Is; to make a paradise on this earth, and He MUST destroy All who will not obey Him, even though He does not want to, it is the only way that it is possible to make the earth a paradise, Rom 3:5,6, 2Peter 3:3-9. Anyone who does not love God and his neighbor must be removed, 2Peter 3:7.
God sent His son to earth to provide a Ransom Sacrifice for all people who want to live forever. Jesus died to give all, Even the unrighteous, but they must show that they want to live, by obeying Jesus, and his Father, Jehovah God, 2Thessalonians 1:6-10, Romans 10:13.
Do not miss the opportunity that has been provided for you, by thinking your reasoning is better than God's, Job 40:8, 36:4-7, 35:6-8, 34:10,11.
The Jews, in the days after they intered into a covenant with God were required to follow that Covenant, and not worship any other god, and if they did they were to be killed, Deuteronomy chapter 13. The Jews agreed with the whole covenant, and promised to obey, Exodus 24:7, Deuteronomy 30:15-20.
Today, we are living at the very last days of this wicked system of things, and we do not have much time to change our ways. If we want to live in the paradise earth, that will shortly be put in place, we must grope for Him, although He is not fa off from each one of us, Acts 17:27, Proverbs 8:17, Psalms 145:16,18.

 

[Muffled]

By apostasy I am referring to leaving a religion. Is it morally wrong to punish those who leave a religion and/or lose faith? What if they actively try to convince others?

I say, both are very immoral and contrary to progress of understanding. What are your thoughts?

I believe the punishment should fit the crime. It would seem to me that excommunication is sufficient. I simply moved on to another church that wasn't so dedicated to false doctrine.

 

[Muffled]

I want to say yes. But I also want to know if you are talking about any and all forms of punishment, or just those inflicted by the state? I think imprisoning or killing someone for leaving a religion is a serious human rights violation, but denying them communion within the confines of a cult (i.e., Jehova's Witnesses) is annoying but not criminal.

My brother-in-law is on the outs with the JW's at present but somehow the indoctrination stuck and he still thinks they were right except for the way they treated him of course.

 

[Muffled]

No. I claimed the opposite. Punishment in this case is immoral.

I believe the practice by some Muslims of killing converts is dead wrong; the sitting shivva by Jews over someone who has converted to Christianity is wrong and I even believe shunning as practiced by the Amish is wrong. I don't even shun atheists but I do try to talk some sense into them.