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Is rebirth essential to Buddhism?

sayak83

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Spiny Norman said:
Is rebirth essential an essential aspect of the Buddha's teaching, or just skillful means as suggested by Stephen Batchelor?

Is a belief in rebirth a requirement for effective Buddhist practice?
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I would say no. If trying to believe in rebirth is causing one mental anguish (due to constant arising of doubt and skepticism) then one should let go of holding tightly to that belief. The converse also applies, i.e. if not believing in rebirth is causing you mental anguish (due feeling of purposelessness etc.) then you should let go of the skepticism.
Hee hee hee.
 
O

Osal

Active Member
LuisDantas said:
Why should one even attempt to hold a belief (either for or against) in rebirth?
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First, I don't think you can actually "attempt" a belief. Beliefs are just something you have or aquire. They are something you either have or not.

I suppose people have beliefs for different reasons, or none at all. For istance I can't tell you why I believe in rebirth, but I do. I guess it just makes sense to me. I started believing in it long before I became a Buddhist.

Your mileage may differ, of course.
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Aupmanyav said:
Four imponderables: 3. The (precise working out of the) results of kamma. (Wikipedia)
IMHO, necessary; but only Arhantas, Bodhisattvas and Buddhas know about it. A tad difficult.;)You are accusing Lord Buddha (but, I also believe that way, that is why 'acinteyya'). :D

@ Carlita: Spelling please, it is an important word in Buddhism - Maha yana (Great Vehicle).
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Fingers slip. Is it a separation between Maha yana? I never seen it separated like that (at least from the scriptures I read from) Is it Mahayana or Maha yana?
 
LuisDantas

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Carlita said:
Fingers slip. Is it a separation between Maha yana? I never seen it separated like that (at least from the scriptures I read from)
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Mahayana is nearly always written as a joint word without separation. But it is still a composite word from "Maha" and "Yana", where "Maha" means "great / noble" and "Yana" means "(religious) path".
 
O

Osal

Active Member
[QUOTE="Spiny Norman, post: 4547595, member: 48981"A lot of western Buddhists are agnostic on the issue.[/QUOTE]

Even that's a belief not worth holding on to. I've never met with any sangha in my area where a belief in anything was an issue. It's not like we all stand up and recite the Buddhist equivilant of the Nicean Creed.

We can speculate that a number of people, calling themselves Buddhists, believe in this, that or the other thing, but it's still pure speculation. We may call it "a lot" but the are literally millionsof Buddhists world wide. To say there are a lot of Buddhists that believe something, even in the West, would have to be a pretty big number.
 
Rick O'Shez

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Osal said:
To say there are a lot of Buddhists that believe something, even in the West, would have to be a pretty big number.
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My observation was based on personal experience of a wide range of Buddhist schools in the UK since 1980. I haven't done a survey or anything but if I had to guess I'd say roughly 25% believe in rebirth, 50% are agnostic and 25% reject it. Something like that.
 
Papoon

Papoon

Active Member
Every birth is a rebirth. Every 'moment' is a rebirth. When Gautama was asked if he would take birth again he said that wherever wisdom arises is his rebirth.
What is reborn ? This Being, which is neither self nor not self.
Who woke this morning ? Not the falsely imagined self of yesterday. Yet being arose, as it arises in every moment.
This beginingless being.
Will 'I' be reborn ? Silly question, which begets silly answers.
Will "not I' be reborn ? Even sillier.
Being is transcendent. Individuals arise within Being like waves 'arise' in the sea.
Do 'waves' exist ? Not in and of themselves. They are features of the sea. And the energy of each 'wave' is a result of all other previous waves and will be a cause of all future waves. Waves are functions, not things.
So long as the idea of rebirth is taken personally, it is folly. I am experienced, not experiencer.
 
Rick O'Shez

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Papoon said:
Every 'moment' is a rebirth.
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So what do you make of passages like this:

"Here, student, some woman or man is a killer of living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell. If, on the dissolution of the body, after death, instead of his reappearing in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell, he comes to the human state, he is short-lived wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to short life, that is to say, to be a killer of living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.nymo.html
 
O

Osal

Active Member
Spiny Norman said:
My observation was based on personal experience of a wide range of Buddhist schools in the UK since 1980. I haven't done a survey or anything but if I had to guess I'd say roughly 25% believe in rebirth, 50% are agnostic and 25% reject it. Something like that.
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An excellent basis for belief, to be sure, but still a belief. Nothing to hold on to.

A lot of times, people seem to care more about the beleifs of others than their own.

In my experience, I simply don't care what people "believe".
 
O

Osal

Active Member
Spiny Norman said:
I do, or at least why they believe it. Possibly I can learn something.
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I don't even care why, really. I have a hunch, based on the psychology, sociology and anthropology I studied in college. To delve any further, I think, is pointless and unneccessarily intrusive. Like I said, I don't care what they believe, so why would I care about why they believe it?
 
Rick O'Shez

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Osal said:
I don't even care why, really. I have a hunch, based on the psychology, sociology and anthropology I studied in college. To delve any further, I think, is pointless and unneccessarily intrusive. Like I said, I don't care what they believe, so why would I care about why they believe it?
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There is no need to "intrude", in my experience people are generally quite vocal on this issue. If you aren't interested, that's fine, but not everyone is the same as you.
 
LuisDantas

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Spiny Norman said:
So what do you make of passages like this:

"Here, student, some woman or man is a killer of living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell. If, on the dissolution of the body, after death, instead of his reappearing in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell, he comes to the human state, he is short-lived wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to short life, that is to say, to be a killer of living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.nymo.html
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Personally, I can only conceive of such passages as allegories or fables.

All the more so when the core concepts (Anatta, Sunyata, etc) are taken into account.
 
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