She's a professor of psychology in the U.K. and wrote a book called 'The Meme Machine' - very good, except for the last chapter where she tries to apply her theories to how we should live our lives. The really interesting thing about the book is that she uses memes to explain the evolution of the brain - it was the enormous benefits of being able to copy others' behaviour that made the enormous investment in a big brain pay off.Mr_Spinkles said:
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Is Religion a Virus?
- Thread starter Mr Spinkles
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Mr Spinkles
Mr
I read a very interesting article recently. Anyone every heard of a field of study called "Memetics"?
Memetics is basically the study of ideas and how they evolve. People in the field call ideas "memes". Just like how a computer runs programs, so does your brain- in the form of ideas, which are electrical patterns called "memes".
This is really tricky to explain, but I'm going to continue anyway. Now, you're brain is constantly thinking, or running programs inside it. You're using memes all the time. Whether its a catchy tune that you can't get out of your head, or a catchphrase, or any thought at all- all of them are memes. Thousands of them!
Now, scientists have observed that a group of chimpanzees in Africa will use ONLY peices of wood in performing various tasks, rather than stones. The question is, why? There appears to be no advantage to using one over the other. And both peices of wood and rock are in plentiful supply- in fact another group of chimps, seperated from contact by natural land barriers a short distance away, uses ONLY stones. They'll even search at length to find stone, rather than resort to using peices of wood!
These observations have led some scientists to conclude that the chimps LEARN the behavior of using either stone or wood from their fellow chimps. This constitutes a primitive sort of "culture".
Now, what does this have to do with memes? Well, the idea inside the chimps' heads that "i must use stone- not wood" is a meme. It's an idea that they have- a program running inside their brain that dictates their behavior. It illustrates an important point- memes are self-replicating entities that can help us, or hurt us, or make no difference.
Ok, now bear with me.... DNA, according to traditional biological theory, are the only self-replicators known. All life lives (and dies) for one ultimate purpose- the spread of our particular code of DNA. However, along with the rise of logical thought processes came a NEW replicator- memes! Memes are all basically viruses- they exist for one purpose- to spread themselves around (of course, some of them are helpful to us- like the meme "a penny saved, is a penny earned"). Some, however, trick the host (just like a real virus or computer virus) into ceasing to spread its own genes- and instead spread the meme (or virus) instead. Celibacy is an example of this. Catholic priests deliberately choose to stop spreading their own genes for the sake of a meme (celibacy)- which is produced and spread instead.
Think about it. How do ideas evolve over time? Think about altruism. Altruism is a meme that has been very successful because when someone is altruistic, they tend to expose others to their altruism. On the other hand, when someone is solitary and crabby, people stay away from them- so the meme is "quarantined". Bigotry is a powerful meme that comes to mind.
The thing to keep in mind is that all memes have a few things in common: 1. They can help us spread our genes (like the meme "clean food before you eat it) and thereby spread more 2. They can also be harmful to us 3. They trick the host by either providing some kind of reward for propogating the meme (I just love whistling this song! Or, "You'll go to heaven if you do this!") or by threatening a punishment for not spreading the meme (If I don't believe in God, I'll go to hell). 4. Their main purpose is to get you (the host) to expose as many other people to them as possible, and therefore cathphrases, religions, etc get spread a lot. :angel:
Just think about how many things this theory of memetics accounts for! It helps explain why we have cultures, religions, philosophies- everything. It explains why we do things that don't really "benefit" us- because we've been infected by a virus! Think about how much energy you spend on memes..those tunes you just keep repeating to yourself in your head (or "replicating" if you will)... :talk: I think you'll realize that if you could press Ctrl+Alt+Delete on your brain, you'd have a lot of suspicious looking programs running that are spreading themselves to other peoples' "computers" (think of missionaries, Jahovah's Witnesses, the little mannerisms you do that others imitate, Mr_Spinkles who is spreading or "infecting" you, if you will, with the meme of thinking about memes as you read this...some of you might not be able to get the "Meme"-meme out of your head... etc).
Just a theory!
Memetics is basically the study of ideas and how they evolve. People in the field call ideas "memes". Just like how a computer runs programs, so does your brain- in the form of ideas, which are electrical patterns called "memes".
This is really tricky to explain, but I'm going to continue anyway. Now, you're brain is constantly thinking, or running programs inside it. You're using memes all the time. Whether its a catchy tune that you can't get out of your head, or a catchphrase, or any thought at all- all of them are memes. Thousands of them!
Now, scientists have observed that a group of chimpanzees in Africa will use ONLY peices of wood in performing various tasks, rather than stones. The question is, why? There appears to be no advantage to using one over the other. And both peices of wood and rock are in plentiful supply- in fact another group of chimps, seperated from contact by natural land barriers a short distance away, uses ONLY stones. They'll even search at length to find stone, rather than resort to using peices of wood!
These observations have led some scientists to conclude that the chimps LEARN the behavior of using either stone or wood from their fellow chimps. This constitutes a primitive sort of "culture".
Now, what does this have to do with memes? Well, the idea inside the chimps' heads that "i must use stone- not wood" is a meme. It's an idea that they have- a program running inside their brain that dictates their behavior. It illustrates an important point- memes are self-replicating entities that can help us, or hurt us, or make no difference.
Ok, now bear with me.... DNA, according to traditional biological theory, are the only self-replicators known. All life lives (and dies) for one ultimate purpose- the spread of our particular code of DNA. However, along with the rise of logical thought processes came a NEW replicator- memes! Memes are all basically viruses- they exist for one purpose- to spread themselves around (of course, some of them are helpful to us- like the meme "a penny saved, is a penny earned"). Some, however, trick the host (just like a real virus or computer virus) into ceasing to spread its own genes- and instead spread the meme (or virus) instead. Celibacy is an example of this. Catholic priests deliberately choose to stop spreading their own genes for the sake of a meme (celibacy)- which is produced and spread instead.
Think about it. How do ideas evolve over time? Think about altruism. Altruism is a meme that has been very successful because when someone is altruistic, they tend to expose others to their altruism. On the other hand, when someone is solitary and crabby, people stay away from them- so the meme is "quarantined". Bigotry is a powerful meme that comes to mind.
The thing to keep in mind is that all memes have a few things in common: 1. They can help us spread our genes (like the meme "clean food before you eat it) and thereby spread more 2. They can also be harmful to us 3. They trick the host by either providing some kind of reward for propogating the meme (I just love whistling this song! Or, "You'll go to heaven if you do this!") or by threatening a punishment for not spreading the meme (If I don't believe in God, I'll go to hell). 4. Their main purpose is to get you (the host) to expose as many other people to them as possible, and therefore cathphrases, religions, etc get spread a lot. :angel:
Just think about how many things this theory of memetics accounts for! It helps explain why we have cultures, religions, philosophies- everything. It explains why we do things that don't really "benefit" us- because we've been infected by a virus! Think about how much energy you spend on memes..those tunes you just keep repeating to yourself in your head (or "replicating" if you will)... :talk: I think you'll realize that if you could press Ctrl+Alt+Delete on your brain, you'd have a lot of suspicious looking programs running that are spreading themselves to other peoples' "computers" (think of missionaries, Jahovah's Witnesses, the little mannerisms you do that others imitate, Mr_Spinkles who is spreading or "infecting" you, if you will, with the meme of thinking about memes as you read this...some of you might not be able to get the "Meme"-meme out of your head... etc).
Just a theory!
Mr Spinkles
Mr
I see....she must have been mentioned in the article about memes that I read in Skeptic magazine.
Hirohito18200
Member
I think to call religious "memes" a virus is very harsh.
Memes are not necesarily a bad thing. For instance, without these memes, the cave man wouldn't have evolved to using simple tools, or fire. To bring it back to religion, without Jewish dietary laws, many Israelites would have been harmed from food poisoning if these memes had not been transmitted through their culture.
I suppose a bad religion meme could be spread and thought of as a virus, but since we are all one, big, tolerant family, I don't think you could call any discussed religion a virus.
Mis Dos pesos.. :talk:
Memes are not necesarily a bad thing. For instance, without these memes, the cave man wouldn't have evolved to using simple tools, or fire. To bring it back to religion, without Jewish dietary laws, many Israelites would have been harmed from food poisoning if these memes had not been transmitted through their culture.
I suppose a bad religion meme could be spread and thought of as a virus, but since we are all one, big, tolerant family, I don't think you could call any discussed religion a virus.
Mis Dos pesos.. :talk:
Mr Spinkles
Mr
What about cults? What about Naziism? I think we can both safely call those viruses, no?
And you're right Hirohito- I'm not saying all religion is bad. Lots of memes are good. In fact, if a meme can help people survive, the meme itself has a better chance of getting spread.
And you're right Hirohito- I'm not saying all religion is bad. Lots of memes are good. In fact, if a meme can help people survive, the meme itself has a better chance of getting spread.
Good topic! All ideas, habits, beliefs, songs etc are memes, and if you get rid of one belief it is only because you replaced it with another one. Memes of course have no life of their own, but they tend to compete as though they do. Susan Blackmore called a religion a 'memeplex' in that it consists of many memes working together - like, 'believe us, and you'll go to heaven' and 'never doubt or question us' and 'have many babies and teach them to obey you'. What we're looking for is a kind of ultimate meme that cannot be challenged, and through which we can judge all other memes.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Good point, Alaric! :clap: I agree with you I'm not sure we can call memes "living" things- however, they do exist in the physical world, just like computer viruses and real viruses (those viruses aren't classified as living things, either).
Have I heard of this Susan Blackmore before? The name sounds familiar- is she a renowned skeptic?
Have I heard of this Susan Blackmore before? The name sounds familiar- is she a renowned skeptic?
dudley thoth
Member
I came across a paper on the net that may be related to this topic. It was a counter argument against Richard Dawkins religious virus theory. I dont have the address but the paper was called 'parasite ecology and the evolution of religion' if that helps.
Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
It really brings on a whole new way of thinking. To analyze yourself as a 'computer' of sorts, you can objectively evaluate your many memes: what are they, where did they come from, what is their purpose, etc. Through this evaluation, you can (if i may be so treehugger-ish as to say) really cleanse yourself of viral memes and develop a higher consciousness of sorts. If it is something as simple as a song stuck in your head, obviously that is pretty harmless. But something bigger, like religion for example, can really be called into question. Where did that one come from, after all? Very few people can accurately answer that question.
Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
Another thought:
What do memes say about free will? (lol, Mr. Spinkles, you can prolly tune out about now) If our thoughts are indeed comparable to computer programs, then they do not change or alter themselves, they simply run their course. Other memes can influence the functioning of others, either to build them up or put them down, but can this be called decision making? When one meme has an impact on another, does the meme which is acted upon respond in a subjective manner? that would imply free will, certainly, but it makes more sense to think that memes interact in logical patterns, therefore respond to each other in 'preconcieved' objective ways.
What do memes say about free will? (lol, Mr. Spinkles, you can prolly tune out about now) If our thoughts are indeed comparable to computer programs, then they do not change or alter themselves, they simply run their course. Other memes can influence the functioning of others, either to build them up or put them down, but can this be called decision making? When one meme has an impact on another, does the meme which is acted upon respond in a subjective manner? that would imply free will, certainly, but it makes more sense to think that memes interact in logical patterns, therefore respond to each other in 'preconcieved' objective ways.
Runt
Well-Known Member
LMAO. I like this. However, it is unfair to just refer to religions as memes... what about atheism? What about things NOT tied to religion? If religion is a virus, these things can be too... I think you shouldn't differentiate between "good meme" and "bad meme" so bad... they are all just memes... WHERE the hell did they come from?
Nevertheless, I like this. Very well written, and a completely new way to looking at thoughts. I think I'm going to show this to some of my friends... especially my atheist friends. They'll get a kick out of it!
Nevertheless, I like this. Very well written, and a completely new way to looking at thoughts. I think I'm going to show this to some of my friends... especially my atheist friends. They'll get a kick out of it!
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Hey Runt-
I completely agree with you! In many ways, I've been "infected" with the "atheism meme". Great point!
Still, a lack of belief in spiritual things could be viewed as simply an absence of those memes, rather than a presence of counter-memes. But I agree with you everything is a meme, not just religion.
I completely agree with you! In many ways, I've been "infected" with the "atheism meme". Great point!
Still, a lack of belief in spiritual things could be viewed as simply an absence of those memes, rather than a presence of counter-memes. But I agree with you everything is a meme, not just religion.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
by the way- Runt, do you really like this thread, or are you making fun of it? If so, you really hurt my feelings 
OctoberTheHottie
Member
This basic concept is simply outlined in a book I was talking about in another topic, The Four Agreements, it explains that all of your beliefs are were given to you, you didn't think of a single one on your own, they were given to you by your parents and your environment by agreeing with them. And it also says that you should question them and in the case of bad ones or controling ones, or just ones that make you act in a way that you have been trained to deem socially acceptable whether you are happy or comfortable acting that way, that you can only get rid of them by replacing them with a postive or happy belief that you are comfortable with. It explains them as parasites that invade your mind and live out thier whims through your body. It is really facinating, I did not know there was an actual scientific study on this belief, I thought it was blind faith, maybe there is somthing to this scientology after all, lol.
I guess they are all memes though, even the happy positive ones that are things you want to do, but I guess the point is getting rid of the ones that go against you and make you do things that you don't want to do??
I guess they are all memes though, even the happy positive ones that are things you want to do, but I guess the point is getting rid of the ones that go against you and make you do things that you don't want to do??
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
This reminds me of the Scientology concept of 'engrams'...
its a bit wacky but basically everything you experience in the womb (such as your mother farting or eating spicy food) will effect your subconscious and cause you to act in certen ways when the 'engrams' are triggered...
for example:
if the doctor smacks you when you are born and says 'now you take him' it can cause you to experience pain whenever you hear the word or think about 'now'....
aparently the point of scientology is to rid yourself of your 'engrams' so you can be a clear and free person. of cource no one has done it yet... but I'm shure they are getting close... :roll:
wa:-do
its a bit wacky but basically everything you experience in the womb (such as your mother farting or eating spicy food) will effect your subconscious and cause you to act in certen ways when the 'engrams' are triggered...
for example:
if the doctor smacks you when you are born and says 'now you take him' it can cause you to experience pain whenever you hear the word or think about 'now'....
aparently the point of scientology is to rid yourself of your 'engrams' so you can be a clear and free person. of cource no one has done it yet... but I'm shure they are getting close... :roll:
wa:-do
Runt
Well-Known Member
Nope, I really like it, despite the fact that it is slightly... antireligious. Oh well... I was an atheist for a few years, so I still have that appreciation for good atheist arguments and stuff that just blatantly makes fun of religion... which I guess is a little hypocritical, but there you have it.
Besides, it is a really unique way of looking at things. Nobody quite looked at thoughts as viral-like lifeforms whose only purpose is to propagate... but in an odd way it is so true!
Besides, it is a really unique way of looking at things. Nobody quite looked at thoughts as viral-like lifeforms whose only purpose is to propagate... but in an odd way it is so true!
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Runt- glad to hear it! :goodjob:
But let me say I try to be a fair person, and as such I definitely am not antireligious. I think the "meme" religion is often an extremely useful thing in human societies- it gives people a sense of belonging, hope, and security. This virus definitely helps us in some ways.
I just don't think the memes of religion are "true"--but I would never say they are "bad" (unfortunately, you have to think the meme is "true" in order to get the psychological benefits of it). Santa isn't real outside the minds of children- but still, what a wonderfully positive and uplifting meme that is! Parents know that Santa isn't real, but they also know that believing in Santa is a lot of fun for kids, and besides it won't hurt. As long as the child doesn't take it too seriously and risk his life in traveling to the North Pole, that is....
But let me say I try to be a fair person, and as such I definitely am not antireligious. I think the "meme" religion is often an extremely useful thing in human societies- it gives people a sense of belonging, hope, and security. This virus definitely helps us in some ways.
I just don't think the memes of religion are "true"--but I would never say they are "bad" (unfortunately, you have to think the meme is "true" in order to get the psychological benefits of it). Santa isn't real outside the minds of children- but still, what a wonderfully positive and uplifting meme that is! Parents know that Santa isn't real, but they also know that believing in Santa is a lot of fun for kids, and besides it won't hurt. As long as the child doesn't take it too seriously and risk his life in traveling to the North Pole, that is....
Ceridwen018 said:
It's ironic that you think it brings out "a whole new way of thinking" and then fall into patterns based on common sense that have been around since recorded history. 1. We begin with sentience of ourselves... others... the environment. Apparently what we already knew is called memes by certain pseudo-scientists. 2. We begin to develope more abstractions about ourselves and our environment. 3. Then we try to get "higher consciousness" through cleansing, a sort of Platonic idea. Note the value judgments....
But what are the real values being logically preached here based on the premises about "ultimate reality." If we begin with these sorts of premises and be really logical the values being preached are: have sex with as many people as possible so that something of you survives (because you're just something physical, after all). Or, as a racial collective strive for survival by being part of the group in the struggle for survival against other groups, since this may be more effective for the survival of your ultimate "being."
This is a type of "biological thinking" revisited.
"Our whole cultural life for decades has been more or less
under the influence of biological thinking, as it was begun
particularly around the middle of the last century, by the
teachings of Darwin, Mendel, and Galton.....
Though it took decades before the
courage was found, on the basis of the initial findings of
the natural sciences, to carry on a systematic study of
heredity, the progress of the teaching and its application
to man could not be delayed any more. It was recognized
that the natural laws discovered for plants and animals
ought also to be valid for man, and this could fully
and completely be confirmed during the last three
decades both through family research (Familienforschung)
and through the study of ******** and twins."
(Max Weinreich, Hitler's Proffessors: The
Part of Scholarship in Germany's Crimes
against the Jewish People. (New York:
The Yiddish Scientific Institute, 1946) :33)
Note that when the only way to rectify a disagreement politically is to do so physically instead of metaphysically then the Nazi solution of liquidation comes into play. Note that this is patently un-American and America's metaphysical focus is the reason why people's of all physical nationalities and races have come to America where the metaphysical is honored. But simply admitting to the metaphysical is necessary but not sufficient in overcoming ethical incompetence, it is only one step. This is a step that certain modern pseudo-scientists often refuse to take, calling the metaphysical the physical/"memes" doesn't really change anything.
Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
CJW,
Alright, let me clarify a little. In my opinion, the majority of people view the workings of the brain in regards to emotions and thoughts as a subjective area. The idea of memes introduces a basis of objectivity. That is what I mean by 'a new way of thinking'. By objectively examining your thoughts and emotions, and by realizing that those thoughts and emotions are controlled by organized and objective patterns, you really can acheive a radically new outlook.
I agree with your 'pattern of common sense.' This can be seen working not just from early to modern man, but from child to adult as well. Each step builds off of the other creating a necessary order.
I disagree, though, with what you said about America having a 'metaphysical focus'. We have a logical focus certainly, but metaphysical? Explain that.
Also, it was not biological thinking which spurred the Nazis, but deranged thinking. The Nazis outrageous justifications for their actions do not fit in very well with classical biological thinking. Another thing: you seem to be associating fighting as a physical way to work out political issues, and the alternative being to 'talk things over' i guess, is labeled metaphysical. In my mind, talking is a very physical action, and so I'm not quite sure how one could utilize the metaphysical in such a situation, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding you here.
Touching on biological thinking again:
I get the feeling that you find such thinking to be inferior, and I can see how it could be. However, I feel that modern people are much too caught up in their own superiority, in that they feel they must 'advance' in every possible area (area of thinking included and featured), even when that 'advancement' entails making crap up (hence, religion was born, in my opinion). Yes, we are superior to the ape, but why do people have such a hard time accepting the theory that we may have been decended from them? (I'm not implying that you do or don't I'm just speculating here). I have been told that it is because god created man is his image and none other, so to say we come from apes is blasphemous and yada, yada, yada-- but that doesn't make any sense. Wouldn't the ape, by religious standards, be superior to the human, in that the ape is without sin? The point here is this: keep it simple, stupid (the greatest adage ever), you and me baby ain't nothin but mammals after all.
Alright, let me clarify a little. In my opinion, the majority of people view the workings of the brain in regards to emotions and thoughts as a subjective area. The idea of memes introduces a basis of objectivity. That is what I mean by 'a new way of thinking'. By objectively examining your thoughts and emotions, and by realizing that those thoughts and emotions are controlled by organized and objective patterns, you really can acheive a radically new outlook.
I agree with your 'pattern of common sense.' This can be seen working not just from early to modern man, but from child to adult as well. Each step builds off of the other creating a necessary order.
I disagree, though, with what you said about America having a 'metaphysical focus'. We have a logical focus certainly, but metaphysical? Explain that.
Also, it was not biological thinking which spurred the Nazis, but deranged thinking. The Nazis outrageous justifications for their actions do not fit in very well with classical biological thinking. Another thing: you seem to be associating fighting as a physical way to work out political issues, and the alternative being to 'talk things over' i guess, is labeled metaphysical. In my mind, talking is a very physical action, and so I'm not quite sure how one could utilize the metaphysical in such a situation, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding you here.
Touching on biological thinking again:
I get the feeling that you find such thinking to be inferior, and I can see how it could be. However, I feel that modern people are much too caught up in their own superiority, in that they feel they must 'advance' in every possible area (area of thinking included and featured), even when that 'advancement' entails making crap up (hence, religion was born, in my opinion). Yes, we are superior to the ape, but why do people have such a hard time accepting the theory that we may have been decended from them? (I'm not implying that you do or don't I'm just speculating here). I have been told that it is because god created man is his image and none other, so to say we come from apes is blasphemous and yada, yada, yada-- but that doesn't make any sense. Wouldn't the ape, by religious standards, be superior to the human, in that the ape is without sin? The point here is this: keep it simple, stupid (the greatest adage ever), you and me baby ain't nothin but mammals after all.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
>>But what are the real values being logically preached here based on the premises about "ultimate reality." If we begin with these sorts of premises and be really logical the values being preached are: have sex with as many people as possible so that something of you survives (because you're just something physical, after all). Or, as a racial collective strive for survival by being part of the group in the struggle for survival against other groups, since this may be more effective for the survival of your ultimate "being."
<<
If we didn't have memes which told us otherwise, yes we would all have sex as much as possible. Animals don't have many memes, and that's what they do. We have memes though, which tell us that having promiscuous sex detriments society, is against "God's will", etc etc. Some people don't have those memes, and they do have lots of promiscuous sex, as I'm sure you would agree.
Just remember- a theory's relevance to reality is not determined by whether or not like the implications of the theory are pleasant or unpleasant.
I'd like to add: CJW- your criticism of the moral implications of this whole meme theory are based on the assumption that our "ultimate being" as you called it is merely our old, animalistic selves without any memes at all.
However, I never said that memes are all bad, or that memes are not part of our "true" selves. I don't think they are something to be entirely rejected. In fact, I think that our "ultimate being" is one that does include memes. Memes are a part of us just as much as our fingers and toes are. To deny the meme of altruism, for example, because it isn't "true" to ourselves would be a big mistake--this meme is definitely part of who we are (I think you and I actually might find some common ground here-a bit of miscommunication).
<<
If we didn't have memes which told us otherwise, yes we would all have sex as much as possible. Animals don't have many memes, and that's what they do. We have memes though, which tell us that having promiscuous sex detriments society, is against "God's will", etc etc. Some people don't have those memes, and they do have lots of promiscuous sex, as I'm sure you would agree.
Just remember- a theory's relevance to reality is not determined by whether or not like the implications of the theory are pleasant or unpleasant.
I'd like to add: CJW- your criticism of the moral implications of this whole meme theory are based on the assumption that our "ultimate being" as you called it is merely our old, animalistic selves without any memes at all.
However, I never said that memes are all bad, or that memes are not part of our "true" selves. I don't think they are something to be entirely rejected. In fact, I think that our "ultimate being" is one that does include memes. Memes are a part of us just as much as our fingers and toes are. To deny the meme of altruism, for example, because it isn't "true" to ourselves would be a big mistake--this meme is definitely part of who we are (I think you and I actually might find some common ground here-a bit of miscommunication).