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Is religion dying?

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Heard and understood. But in saying that, I just realized, that you probably won't believe me. Which in turn should prove that I did hear you and understand you. But did I?

And around and around we go. LOL!

Okay, here it is in practice. We can flee and stop engaging, we can engage as fighting over the truth or we can compromise. So even if you don't understand me or in reverse, we can agree that we understand differently and don't fight over that.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
No, the definition from Drexel, does not. Any defintion you find, IF you do not crop out the qualifier, defines it as not having elements. It is defined by negation. It is defined by what it isn't.
- daddy, what is that big thing?
- it is an oil tank
- what is an oil tank?
- a big container
- what does it contain?
- oil
- do you think that one has some oil in it now?
- of course, otherwise it would not be an oil tank, and it would have collapsed into nothingness

don’t you realize how absurd your position is? You are exactly like that daddy, believing that the definition of something as a collection of things, entails that the collection must contain something. Which is obviously false, if that requirement is not stated explicitly.

Think about it. The same guys who defined the empty set, are the same guys who defined sets. Every single one. From the top mathematician, to the local teacher in primary school, high school, college, or whatever.
Well, if those people defined the set as a collection that must have an element, in order to be called a set, they would be utterly insane. Why? Because them same people defined the empty set as the set which contains no elements. Which would be equivalent of defining the empty set as that collection that must contain at least one element, that contains no elements. which is obviously a sign of insanity.

Now, we can conclude the following:

1) the ones who defined all those things are insane.
2) the ones who defined all those things liked to introduce a self contradicting impossible thing at the heart of their discipline
3) the ones who defined those things do not understand the semantics of their own mother language, when defining things
4) you are the only one being mistaken

now, which one is the most likely, is left as a simple exercise to the reader.

but for sure, as long as you are unable to understand this very basic thing, all your conclusions concerning sets are doomed to be non sequiturs trespassing into the absurd. as we have seen in case of your conclusions about intersections of disjoint sets.

ciao

- viole
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Of course not. But that is not what I said. probably, again, a problem with my English.

what I said is that something is true, if that it can be proved to not being false. If it being false is absurd. Or leading to a contradiction. not the same thing at all.

Which is basically one of the principles dictated by logic. As you probably know. It is a principle of logic. Namely, the principle of the excluded middle.

in other words, a (not circularly defined) proposition P is always either true or false. There is no alternative. And it is always either of them. If I cannot prove either of the cases, nor their negation, then I cannot make any conclusion about whether it is true or false. But for sure, if I can prove that it is not false, then it follows that it is true. Like i did.

And, therefore, unless you admit of operating outside the constraints of logic, and its principles, your conclusions will not be logical. By definition of what “being logical” means.

Ciao

- viole

I'm going to focus only on this point until it is resolved. Even if I grant all axiomatic defintions, lies are being conflated as truth.

The law of the excluded middle is philosophy. It comes from Aristotle. That means that in order to justify your position, you are using philosophy. So, there can be no more objections to bringing philosophy into this debate. And honestly, it proves my point. You need to go much further to show that an empty-set obtains all properties and that its "empty-ness" can be used to prove the truth of a positive claim.

The law of the excluded middle correctly and intuitively states that for every proposition A there is a corresponding true statement in the form of "A is true or not". That's it. The law states there is no middle ground. Things are either true or false. That's it.

This means that the proposition "All the german speakers are raising their hands" is NOT true unless it includes "All the german speakers are raising their hands, or not".

That's it. Done.

The law of the excluded middle OPPOSES the empty-set obtaining all properties. It's the proof against it.


Now let's look to see again if you proved that married-bachelors have blue hair.

"It is either true or false that all married bachelors have blue hair. Let's prove it is not false, and it is therefore true. The claim "all married bachelors have blue hair" is false if and only if there is at least one married bachelor that does not have blue hair. But this is clearly impossible, because there are no married bachelors at all, not to speak of the ones having any hair color. Ergo, the claim "all married bachelors have blue hair" cannot be false, and it is therefore true."​
You very obviously did not prove that this is NOT FALSE. You proved it was impossible to evaluate. There is not one married-bachelor found, there is no hair. The same exact logic can be used in reverse.

"It is either true or false that all married bachelors have blue hair. Let's prove it is not TRUE, and it is therefore FALSE. The claim "all married bachelors have blue hair" is TRUE if and only if there is at least one married bachelor that DOES HAVE blue hair. But this is clearly impossible, because there are no married bachelors at all, not to speak of the ones having any hair color. Ergo, the claim "all married bachelors have blue hair" cannot be TRUE, and it is therefore FALSE."​
See? The entire test is invalid. It proves nothing! Proof by contradiction cannot be used with an empty-set. It fails every time.

The law of the excluded middle states that the original statement is true! "it is either true or false that all married bachelors have blue hair". And that is all that you have proven. The only way to take this further is if it is ASSUMED that married-bachelors have blue hair, and if no others are found, then the assumption holds. This is extreme optimism. I am an optimist. I know it when I see it.

What's really happening is the opposite of the law of the excluded middle. It's not a law, it's rejected by most philosophers. It's called the "principle of explosion". It is extreme optimism.


The principle of explosion claims, "from falsehood, anything". That is just another way of stating, "the empty-set obtains all". The empty-set by definition has no elements. But it is being evaluated as if it does have elements ( that's the only way a proof by contradiction is valid ), then a contradiction is accepted as true: "The empty set obtains all properties AND The empty set contains no properties." This violates the law of the excluded middle.

What this means is, axiomatic set theory accepts contradictions as true! All it needs to do is define the contradiction as true, and then ignore it. This is all based on "Trivialism". Trivialism is opposed by Actualism. Claiming a proposition is true because it is not proven false and not proven it is true is Trivialism. While I have been arguing that propositions need to be "actually" true.


So, simple question: Did you ACTUALLY prove that married-bachlors have blue hair, or did you TRIVIALLY prove that married-bachelors have no hair? Please be honest. Don't worry. I'm an optimist, you will be accepted, and I can certainly argue for the merits of optimism... until... those merits begin to blur the lines between truth and fiction.
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Hello!

You know what?
There was a guy in the room who spoke German, but both his hands had been amputated. And he had blue hair. He sat apart {in a set} all by himself.

It was really sad.

The devil's advocate has purgered itself if it knows there are NO german speakers in the room.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The law of the excluded middle correctly and intuitively states that for every proposition A there is a corresponding true statement in the form of "A is true or not". That's it. The law states there is no middle ground. Things are either true or false. That's it.

This means that the proposition "All the german speakers are raising their hands" is NOT true unless it includes "All the german speakers are raising their hands, or not".

That's it. Done.
fine, let’s focus on that.

so, do you agree that if I can prove that the negation of “All the german speakers are raising their hands" is false, then the claim is true?

assuming, as per premise, that there are NO german speaking people in the room.

ciao

- viole
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
fine, let’s focus on that.

so, do you agree that if I can prove that the negation of “All the german speakers are raising their hands" is false, then the claim is true?

assuming, as per premise, that there are NO german speaking people in the room.

ciao

- viole

No, as stated. The same negation can be used to show that the claim is false. A proof by contradiction ALWAYS fails with an empty-set.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
fine, let’s focus on that.

so, do you agree that if I can prove that the negation of “All the german speakers are raising their hands" is false, then the claim is true?

assuming, as per premise, that there are NO german speaking people in the room.

ciao

- viole

Are you ACTUALLY proving that german speakers are raising their hands, or are you TRIVIALLY proving that german speakers are raising their hands? Please be honest.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Are you ACTUALLY proving that german speakers are raising their hands, or are you TRIVIALLY proving that german speakers are raising their hands? Please be honest.
That is not what I am doing. Slow down, and Let us focus on the claim, and how we can prove its truth or falsity just by using elementary logic, and not your intuitions. Nor my intuitions. Just straight, and simple logic.

let us make it a bit more general, hoping that you are able to follow symbolic reasoning.

consider claim P. You can set P being the claims about germans, or any other claim. As we have seen, claim P is either true or false, nothing more, nothing less, as you also agreed In a previous post. Your very words. And we both agree with that. Because that is that law of logic, that we need to fulfill in order to claim to be logical.

my question to you is: do you agree that if I can prove that P cannot possibly be false, then it must be true?

ciao

- viole
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
That is not what I am doing. Slow down, and Let us focus on the claim, and how we can prove its truth or falsity just by using elementary logic, and not your intuitions. Nor my intuitions. Just straight, and simple logic.

Agreed.

let us make it a bit more general, hoping that you are able to follow symbolic reasoning.

OK.

consider claim P. You can set P being the claims about germans, or any other claim. As we have seen, claim P is either true or false, nothing more, nothing less, as you also agreed In a previous post.

Fair enough, although, this prohibits any vacuous truth. But I don't want to focus on that.

Your very words. And we both agree with that.

So... no vacuous truths. Got it.

Because that is that law of logic, that we need to fulfill in order to claim to be logical.

Agreed.

my question to you is: do you agree that if I can prove that P cannot possibly be false, then it must be true?

Asked and answered. No, proof by contradiction ALWAYS fails with an empty-set. The only way around this is to change the definition of an empty-set or exclude it.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Asked and answered. No, proof by contradiction ALWAYS fails with an empty-set. The only way around this is to change the definition of an empty-set.
no you did not answer. you are still referencing the empty set, and old discussions. i need a simple yes, or a simple no, to a very simple question on the matter we are focusing on now.

please forget the blessed empty set for a second. We are focusing here on the law of the excluded middle, and how to determine if a certain claim P is true or false.

do you agree, or not, that if i can prove that a claim P is not false, then it is true?
[yes/no]

ciao

- viole
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
no you did not answer. you are still referencing the empty set, and old discussions. i need a simple yes, or a simple no, to a very simple question on the matter we are focusing on now.

please forget the blessed empty set for a second. We are focusing here on the law of the excluded middle, and how to determine if a certain claim P is true or false.

do you agree, or not, that if i can prove that a claim P is not false, then it is true?
[yes/no]

ciao

- viole

OK, I am happy to agree if the proposition is about things that exist.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
no you did not answer. you are still referencing the empty set, and old discussions. i need a simple yes, or a simple no, to a very simple question on the matter we are focusing on now.

please forget the blessed empty set for a second. We are focusing here on the law of the excluded middle, and how to determine if a certain claim P is true or false.

do you agree, or not, that if i can prove that a claim P is not false, then it is true?
[yes/no]

ciao

- viole

Um, I did give you a simple answer. Twice actually. The answer is no. I also gave you the reason for this answer.

Screenshot_20230509_102108.jpg


Screenshot_20230509_102148.jpg


What you should be asking is, "How can you claim to agree with the law of the excluded middle, without using proof by contradiction? Doesn't this leave many propositions neither true nor false?"
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
What you should be asking is, "How can you claim to agree with the law of the excluded middle, without using proof by contradiction? Doesn't this leave many propositions neither true nor false?"
Ach so. Now I see the source of your confusion. This little trap of yours makes it crystal clear.

You truly believe that propositions like “for all x such that ….” will lead, in case there is no such x, to propositions that are both true and false.

Or, equivalently, to propositions that are true, and whose negation is true, too. Defeating thereby the very premise proof by contradiction is based on. Namely, that both a proposition and its negation cannot possibly be both true (or false).

To go back to my example. Since I know no Jews, that would lead me to conclude, as it does, that both following propositions are true

P1) All the Jews I know are atheists
P2} All the Jews I know believe in God

But, you will say, this cannot be, because that would mean that we have found a proposition, say P1, that is true. But that it must also be false, because Its negation (P2) is true, too. And that shows that proof by contradiction cannot work in this case, because it leads to results in contradiction with its basic premise: the principle of excluded middle.

Did I interpret your thoughts correctly?

Ciao

- viole
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Ach so. Now I see the source of your confusion. This little trap of yours makes it crystal clear.

You truly believe that propositions like “for all x such that ….” will lead, in case there is no such x, to propositions that are both true and false.

Or, equivalently, to propositions that are true, and whose negation is true, too. Defeating thereby the very premise proof by contradiction is based on. Namely, that both a proposition and its negation cannot possibly be both true (or false).

To go back to my example. Since I know no Jews, that would lead me to conclude, as it does, that both following propositions are true

P1) All the Jews I know are atheists
P2} All the Jews I know believe in God

But, you will say, this cannot be, because that would mean that we have found a proposition, say P1, that is true. But that it must also be false, because Its negation (P2) is true, too. And that shows that proof by contradiction cannot work in this case, because it leads to results in contradiction with its basic premise: the principle of excluded middle.

Did I interpret your thoughts correctly?

Ciao

- viole
No, not at all.

My objection is to the method. The test you are proposing simply doesn't work in all cases. And you are wanting me to agree unconditionally to a method that is known to be faulty. See below:

Now let's look to see again if you proved that married-bachelors have blue hair.
"It is either true or false that all married bachelors have blue hair. Let's prove it is not false, and it is therefore true. The claim "all married bachelors have blue hair" is false if and only if there is at least one married bachelor that does not have blue hair. But this is clearly impossible, because there are no married bachelors at all, not to speak of the ones having any hair color. Ergo, the claim "all married bachelors have blue hair" cannot be false, and it is therefore true."​

You very obviously did not prove that this is NOT FALSE. You proved it was impossible to evaluate. There is not one married-bachelor found, there is no hair. The same exact logic can be used in reverse.
"It is either true or false that all married bachelors have blue hair. Let's prove it is not TRUE, and it is therefore FALSE. The claim "all married bachelors have blue hair" is TRUE if and only if there is at least one married bachelor that DOES HAVE blue hair. But this is clearly impossible, because there are no married bachelors at all, not to speak of the ones having any hair color. Ergo, the claim "all married bachelors have blue hair" cannot be TRUE, and it is therefore FALSE."​

See? The entire test is invalid. It proves nothing! Proof by contradiction cannot be used with an empty-set. It fails every time

So, I cannot agree with the method you have proposed because it is easily shown to produce contradicting conclusions. Is there some fault in what I said above?
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
To go back to my example. Since I know no Jews, that would lead me to conclude, as it does, that both following propositions are true

P1) All the Jews I know are atheists
P2} All the Jews I know believe in God

No. The law of the excluded middle states for each claim there is a corresponding true statement in the form of "The claim is true XOR not." I'm using the "exclusive or" just to be clear.

Chaining the above two claims together renders "All the Jews I know are atheists AND All the jews I know believe in God". The corresponding true statement is:

"All the Jews I know are atheists or not AND All the Jews I know believe in God or not".

There are two claims, there are two "or"s and two "not"s. That's the law of the excluded middle applied. This matches 100% with what i said in post #110.

If you don't know any Jews, and you are honest, you should have said:

"All the Jews I know are Atheist or not."

There is no way out of this. The only way is to claim a "vacuous" truth, a "trivial proof", a proof where the assumption is "it's all true unless proven false". And you have denied that this is what you are doing.

The simple truth is, Axiomatic Set theory does, indeed, adopt trivialism. It does indeed accept contradictions as true. That is applying the principle of explosion, which states "If a contradiction is accepted as true, anything can be accepted as true."
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
No, not at all.

My objection is to the method. The test you are proposing simply doesn't work in all cases. And you are wanting me to agree unconditionally to a method that is known to be faulty. See below:



So, I cannot agree with the method you have proposed because it is easily shown to produce contradicting conclusions. Is there some fault in what I said above?
Yes. It did not produce any contradicting conclusions.

take for example my derived conclusions, from the fact that I know no Jew:

P1) All the Jews I know are atheists
P2} All the Jews I know believe in God

and they are both trivially true.

and definetely not contradicting themselves, at all. i wonder where you infer that from. In fact, they even allow me to infer how many Jews I know.

and of course it is the exclusive “or” intended, when we say that a proposition is either true or false.

Ciao

- violw
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Yes. It did not produce any contradicting conclusions.

take for example my derived conclusions, from the fact that I know no Jew:

P1) All the Jews I know are atheists
P2} All the Jews I know believe in God

are not contradicting themselves, at all. i wonder where you infer that from. In fact, they even allow me to infer how many Jews I know.

and of course it is the exclusive “or” intended, when we say that a proposition is either true or false.

Ciao

- violw

If what you are saying is true, you should be able to take each conclusion and prove them logically. You can't. Go ahead and prove them. They are both in the same form as "Married-bachelors have blue hair." You have not yet reposnded to my question in post #274. And this was previously brought in post#263.

Why are you avoiding this issue? Please address this obvious problem.

Now let's look to see again if you proved that all the Jews you know are Atheists.
"It is either true or false that all the Jews you know are Atheists. Let's prove it is not false, and it is therefore true. The claim "all the Jews you know are Atheists" is false if and only if there is at least one Jew you know that is not an atheist. But this is clearly impossible, because you don't know any Jews at all, not to speak of the ones who beleive in God. Ergo, the claim "all the Jews you know are Atheists" cannot be false, and it is therefore true."​

You very obviously did not prove that this is NOT FALSE. You proved it was impossible to evaluate. There is not one Jew that you know found, there are no beliefs. The same exact logic can be used in reverse.
"It is either true or false that all the Jews you know are Atheists. Let's prove it is not TRUE, and it is therefore FALSE. The claim "all the Jews you know are Atheists" is false if and only if there is at least one Jew you know that IS an atheist. But this is clearly impossible, because you don't know any Jews at all, not to speak of the ones who beleive in God. Ergo, the claim "all the Jews you know are Atheists" cannot be TRUE, and it is therefore FALSE."​

See? The entire test is invalid. It proves nothing! Proof by contradiction cannot be used with an empty-set. It fails every time.

That simple fact that you keep avoiding this issue, shows clearly you know you are wrong, and have no rebuttal.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
If what you are saying is true, you should be able to take each conclusion and prove them logically. You can't
Of course not. ex falso, sequitur quodlibit would be the case if I had proven a contradiction to be true, but i didn’t. Because P1) and P2) can be both true, and in my case they are both true at the same time, without a contradiction whatsoever.

why do you think they contradict each other? it is very puzzling to me that you think they do.

ciao

- viole
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
take for example my derived conclusions, from the fact that I know no Jew:

P1) All the Jews I know are atheists
P2} All the Jews I know believe in God

are not contradicting themselves, at all

They're both lies if you know no Jews.

"Yesterday in a conversation between President Biden and Vladimir Putin, the conversation became heated and threatening and President Biden declared Nuclear war on Russia starting WW3."

What do ya think? Is it OK for that to be published online on CNN, or Fox News?
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Of course not. ex falso, sequitur quodlibit would be the case if I had proven a contradiction to be true, but i didn’t. Because P1) and P2) can be both true, and in my case they are both true at the same time, without a contradiction whatsoever.

why do you think they contradict each other? it is very puzzling to me that you think they do.

ciao

- viole

You are dodging and avoiding the issue. If you claim that both P1 and P2 are true, PROVE IT! You can't. And you know it.

You are ASSUMING they are true, and pretending otherwise.
 
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