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Is religiosity an inevitable consequence of human psychology?

Skepsis2

Member
As for peek-a-boo, very young children are fascinated by it because they have not developed object permanence, and for a short do not understand the concept once they do have object permanence. There is indeed a reason for it. And you can also learn a small degree of adult behavior from it, and other child games such as patty-cake.
And in some cases, psychology is a case of inevitability. Such as it is inevitable that as a teen becomes an emerging adult, his/her thought process will change as the frontal lobe matures.
Same for religion, only there are many reasons for it. For some people it's a support system, for some people it stimulates the brain in a way that fulfills various needs, and can even make it addictive, and of course there are many sociological issues as well. It is most likely here to stay.
Would it be correct to say that most of us underestimate the ability of the brain to make rapid connections for a response to sensory input? The first reaction I’ve often seen in babies to peek-a-boo is alarm but they seem to quickly realize it’s a game and the response is then laughter. Not being a psychologist I would assume there to be a hard wired survival strategy to discover a reason for any sensory input whether it be visual, audio, touch or smell. Once the reason is understood, whether logical or not, the connection provides a sense of security. Although religion is more of a construct that requires indoctrination the process would be similar. Tell me how far off the road I’ve run.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I don't think religion is hardwired, but wanting answers to ultimate questions probably is unavoidable. And it's harder to accept that we just don't know those answers than it is to accept answers handed to us by culture and tradition. Religion is the current method of transmitting these placating answers. I worry that science will be next-- through blind science worship/trust/faith.
 

JMiller

Member
Freud was made obsolete by many of his own disciples, as well as by himself (his later ideas are just as dogmatic as his earlier ones, yet incompatible with those).
This is a bit over dramatic. For years it is true groups squabbled over his teachings, claimed their own version etc... And it is in this decades long debate if you will that rendered it useless many times. However, not because it was not useful, but because while people were squandering the status quo of psychoanalysis other fields were actually advancing. I think if you were aware of current views from actual Psychiatrists you would see a different view emerging.
So I wonder how they could be made relevant again.
As I just said, it was indirection, complacency, wishful thinking on his "followers" that rendered it not relevant. Meanwhile, there were still many scientists/psychiatrists putting his theories to the test. See the following excerpt from an article in Psychology Today Issue May 2011
Psychoanalysis reflects decades and decades of thinking about and pondering on the nature of the human mind," says Peter Fonagy, Freud chair in psychiatry at University College London and director of the London-based Anna Freud Center. "We've identified the core constructs within psychoanalysis as a theory"—the nature of consciousness, the role of early childhood in shaping understanding and behavior, the effect of unconscious processes on everyday life, to name a few—"and shown that they continue to advance our understanding of the human mind. In this sense, I think psychoanalysis is in the best shape it's ever been in
LuisDantas: He had some good insights into the importance of symbolism, but expressed them in ways that were nothing but disastrous and misleading. The one important factor that makes psychanalysis still useful after all this time is that it has learned how to deal with its own lack of realibility and scientifical value in interesting and pragmatic ways.
This part of your reply is understandable, but not accurate. At least according to experts in the field. Another excerpt from the article
But psychoanalysis is a profound exploration of human subjectivity—our inner world with all its memories and desires and impulses—and its relation to the external, objective world. And it is much more than a treatment. It's also a set of theories about the nature of human experience, its depth and complexity. "Analysis is the most elaborate and nuanced view of the mind that we have," Nobel-winning neuroscientist Eric Kandel recently told a meeting of the American Psychoana-lytic Association.
At its center is the belief that subjectivity matters, that regardless of how many millions of circuits science shows are carrying out the work of the brain without our awareness, we still experience a unified sense of self that gives our lives coherence and meaning. In this regard, experts argue, psychoanalysis, which celebrates its hundredth anniversary in America this year, is very much alive.
From what I can gather, the stigma you and thousands of others have is perpetuated and propagated from misunderstandings. Clearly not all of Freud's theories lasted or seem useful, but opening up the field of psychoanalyzing people will most certainly last.
In my opinion there are two reasons the stigma is as strong as it is. One, ignorance. Two, the treatment methods are time intensive, and cost prohibitive when compared to CBT methods.

Big digression of course to this thread, but the evidence from modern experts seems to suggest superstition, subjective memories and dreams, the unconscious and other areas that are still unknown, are still relevant, and will be for a long time.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Good answer, even if I don't much agree. Some specifics:

This is a bit over dramatic. For years it is true groups squabbled over his teachings, claimed their own version etc... And it is in this decades long debate if you will that rendered it useless many times. However, not because it was not useful, but because while people were squandering the status quo of psychoanalysis other fields were actually advancing.

Psychoanalysis is indeed useful, even if often in spite of itself. There is something to it, but it has serious conception challenges to overcome.

It is no accident that it fragmented into several competing lines almost from the very start: it is by design too dogmatic and too personal to be effective as much more than clinical mythology (a more accurate and descriptive label than the traditional "psychoanalysis"). Unfortunately, the self-perception of profesionals in the field does not help in this regard. Freud wanted to be a scientist but his methodology (and personal goals) very much destroyed that possibility.

Which is, in fact, a shame. There is much to be learned of serious, even urgent practical value from the meddlings of Freud and his disciples in the matters of symbolism, values and personal desires. But what we have actually learned, we did largely by fighting the preconceptions and mistifications of the main names of the field. It is noteworthy that to this day they contradict each other and it doesn't really make much of a difference to the practice of psychoanalysis. That is as good a piece of evidence of how tentative and ultimately unreliable their theoretical basis is as one could ask.


I think if you were aware of current views from actual Psychiatrists you would see a different view emerging.

I live in Brazil, were psychoanalysis never quite fell out of favor, and psychiatrists often work in tandem with them. I'm afraid I have still to experience that situation you describe.


As I just said, it was indirection, complacency, wishful thinking on his "followers" that rendered it not relevant.

Really? Because it seems to me that, as would be expected by those who know the merits of the scientific method, it was the competition among Freud's vision and those of his disciples that paved the way for the rise of some practical (if not really scientific) value to his ideas. There is no shortage of evidence on how Freud had to overcome (relutantly, from all appearances) his own attachment to his ideas even in life, and despite a well-documented lack of patience for disagreement.


Meanwhile, there were still many scientists/psychiatrists putting his theories to the test.

Of course. They will have to deal somehow with the very abstract, if not all-out imaginary, nature of most of his concepts, however.

That is not to say that it is not worthwhile. On the contrary, I think that we have a lot indeed to gain from those studies. But the end result will have little resemblance to Freud's ideas. His pionerism was great. His ideas as he presented them, not so much. To be fair, some of his followers were if anything even worse, Lacan particularly.


(...)

Clearly not all of Freud's theories lasted or seem useful, but opening up the field of psychoanalyzing people will most certainly last.

Oh yes, it certainly will. No argument there. I wonder how long it will be credited to Freud or called Psychoanalysis, however. After all, ultimately Freud had very little clue about what he was doing.


In my opinion there are two reasons the stigma is as strong as it is. One, ignorance. Two, the treatment methods are time intensive, and cost prohibitive when compared to CBT methods.

If I may, that is something of a blessing in disguise. Psychoanalysis (in Brazil at least) is often somewhat less expensive in the short run than more scientific psychotherapy. Being time intensive means that the patients are often somewhat guarded for long periods of time, which can be an advantage in some cases. Incidentally, homeopathy fulfills much the same role here as well - it has no true medical value, of course, but it does offer some much-needed interaction and attention that is often lacking in other venues.

That is no reason to accept the conceptual mess and mystification that plague psychoanalysis, but it doesn't mean that it is useless either. Just in bad need of some major questioning and redefinition.


Big digression of course to this thread, but the evidence from modern experts seems to suggest superstition, subjective memories and dreams, the unconscious and other areas that are still unknown, are still relevant, and will be for a long time.

That is basically true, but also largely a factor of how ill-understood and unchallenged the reliance on mystifications is, even in this day. Psychoanalysis has done much to expose that reality, and even more to perpetuate it. Dreams and subjectivism will of course remain relevant (although dreams will IMO eventually be seem mainly as a symptom and not as the oracle of sorts that it is often understood to be), but superstition is not something to be accepted so casually.
 

JMiller

Member
That is not to say that it is not worthwhile. On the contrary, I think that we have a lot indeed to gain from those studies. But the end result will have little resemblance to Freud's ideas. His pionerism was great. His ideas as he presented them, not so much. To be fair, some of his followers were if anything even worse, Lacan particularly.
This is fair enough, It sounded as if you were rendering Freud's efforts futile. He tried his best, screwed up, but aside from that, challenged us to try and put science to our inner workings. Tall order, I agree, but as current research is pointing to, it is the next frontier to tackle. Today we are better equipped to test and refine what he started. I see no need in taking his name out of it, if only for historical perspective.

After all, ultimately Freud had very little clue about what he was doing.
OK, I'll let this slide. The man was by far an idiot though.


If I may, that is something of a blessing in disguise. Psychoanalysis (in Brazil at least) is often somewhat less expensive in the short run than more scientific psychotherapy. Being time intensive means that the patients are often somewhat guarded for long periods of time, which can be an advantage in some cases. Incidentally, homeopathy fulfills much the same role here as well - it has no true medical value, of course, but it does offer some much-needed interaction and attention that is often lacking in other venues.

That is no reason to accept the conceptual mess and mystification that plague psychoanalysis, but it doesn't mean that it is useless either. Just in bad need of some major questioning and redefinition.
In the US, the term therapist and psychotherapist can be used be anyone, by law it is legal. So it is very important to find qualifications first. Mostly you will find the only worthwhile people with that title are actual psychiatrists with years of practicing theory. The cost is quite expensive because when you're with the right person, they aren't simply a fresh graduate wanting to tinker. Most have experience with neuroscience and are practicing physicians who know the biological as well as the theoretical.

That is basically true, but also largely a factor of how ill-understood and unchallenged the reliance on mystifications is, even in this day. Psychoanalysis has done much to expose that reality, and even more to perpetuate it. Dreams and subjectivism will of course remain relevant (although dreams will IMO eventually be seem mainly as a symptom and not as the oracle of sorts that it is often understood to be), but superstition is not something to be accepted so casually.
Again, I am merely a student. It sounds as if you have years in the field, or you are convinced by something you have read.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
The first reaction I’ve often seen in babies to peek-a-boo is alarm but they seem to quickly realize it’s a game and the response is then laughter.
Well with very young children, their cognition has not developed enough to realize that when an object disappears that it still exist. This sudden "reappearance" startles them, and the laughter that follows is mimicking the adults. Through this they learn that the adults face did not really disappear, and that through watching the reactions of the adult, they learn it is a game and cause for laughter and smiles.

Not being a psychologist I would assume there to be a hard wired survival strategy to discover a reason for any sensory input whether it be visual, audio, touch or smell. Once the reason is understood, whether logical or not, the connection provides a sense of security.
It may or may not be a survival strategy, or maybe that we are a curious animal, but yes we do go out to find a reason for the source of that smell, where that sound came from, or whatever. And depending on the outcome, it can create security, trauma, or any number of other responses that depend on individual reactions and what it is exactly that is being experienced.
As for religion, alot of times, especially today it is indoctrination, but when we look to our primitive ancestors it wasn't so much indoctrination as it was a search for answers. And it serves many purposes, one of which is security.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Religion does not fulfill just one need in human beings. It is not that we are wired for religion, but that the way our thought processes are wired makes us particularly susceptible to religious beliefs.

One important aspect of our thinking is mind-body dualism: the fact that our minds control our physical bodies, but the mind itself is not a physical thing. That fundamental truth makes it easy for people to conclude that the mind can actually exist independently of the body, and that also invites people to believe in the existence of disembodied spirits. Although not all religions encourage belief in disembodied spirits or gods, that does seem to be a common theme in the vast majority of cultures.

Another aspect of our thinking that encourages religion is explanation. We understand everything in terms of associations. Minds are "embodied" in the sense that we form our most enduring analogies and metaphors with bodily experiences. Nature is understood as an extension of our personal experiences. We easily personify things that we encounter in our daily lives, especially forces of nature. Gods are quite obviously associated with one of our first experiences in life--the existence of parents.

Finally, religion gives us a sense of greater power over our circumstances. Empowerment is a primary function of prayer, although it can serve other purposes. To the extent that religion makes us feel more in command of reality, we are predisposed to cling to it. Loss of religion is sometimes accompanied by a sense of loss of hope and purpose. Religion can give people the courage to maintain hope even when their world seems to be coming apart. Positive thinking tends to favor survival.
 
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Ahmet Hilmi

New Member
Anyone who stops and listens to his conscience will see that he needs a superior power , a sustainer and protector , since he is weak and needy . These are the means that the intelligent power has put into human soul in order to lead the soul to himself. There is nothing to be ashamed of here, let's confess; we came from nowhere , found ourselves here in this world , we need millions of things and we are scared from millions of things from viruses to earthquakes etc. and finally we are mortal but we love to exist. So a power who has put ozone layer for example between us and the sun to protect us , will also protect us from decaying to nothing . We are here to open our eyes and hearts , and inspect the universe around us to get the message from its Creator . and to listen to our ownselves as well to support His existence and mercy and power etc.. If He did not want to give us infinity , he would not give us the urge to live forever..
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Anyone who stops and listens to his conscience will see that he needs a superior power , a sustainer and protector , since he is weak and needy .
Really? Then evidently a whole lot of people in the world aren't stopping and listening to their conscience, but are getting along just fine, OR they did stop to listen and found no such need.

These are the means that the intelligent power has put into human soul in order to lead the soul to himself.
Then considering all the non-believers, this intelligent power obviously flubbed his responsibility.

There is nothing to be ashamed of here, let's confess; we came from nowhere , found ourselves here in this world , we need millions of things and we are scared from millions of things from viruses to earthquakes etc. and finally we are mortal but we love to exist.
Scared? Nope. Not at all.

So a power who has put ozone layer for example between us and the sun to protect us , will also protect us from decaying to nothing .
I assume you have evidence for this claim. And I mean rational evidence that an unbiased party would confirm.

We are here to open our eyes and hearts , and inspect the universe around us to get the message from its Creator .
So what of those incapable of inspecting the universe around us to get the message from its Creator? What of them?

and to listen to our ownselves as well to support His existence and mercy and power etc..
Why should I bother? Why does he need my support for his existence, mercy, and power etc? Would he fold or wilt without it?

If He did not want to give us infinity , he would not give us the urge to live forever..
You seem to know a lot about intelligent power's motives. You two on a personal one-on-one speaking basis?
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
PZ Myers, an associate professor of biology and ardent atheist and evolutionist has a Blog in which he speaks to various isses usually related to these two interests. Today he reported on the Wotld Atheist Convention he is at and said:
"The basic conflict raised was by DPR Jones, who expressed a rather pessimistic view that religiosity was an inevitable consequence of human psychology, and we're not going to escape it. I disagree. I didn't raise my hand and comment, though, because the Q&A should be for Qs — those things that end in question marks — and I have my own soapbox.

Psychology is not an issue of inevitability. We grow and change all the time, and to suggest that one state is determined because we can developmental evidence for it is misleading. An example: there is a game that children play that palls for us adults. It's called peek-a-boo. That one year olds can be naturally thrilled by hiding and reappearing says nothing about adult behavior. Unfortunately, we live in cultures that have enshrined peek-a-boo as an act of reverence, that couples weekly peek-a-boo sessions with sociability, and tells everyone they'll be horribly punished if they aren't good at peek-a-boo. Don't tell me it's an inevitable aspect of human nature, because my response will be to tell you to just grow the **** up. Some of us already have."
source
I disagree. From my experience, for many people religiosity appears to be no less essential to good mental health than having good friendships is for many others. We all have certain needs that have developed along with our character, some perhaps a bit odd, others almost universal in nature, and to say that one can simply set them aside is to make light of the importance they have in establishing a peace of mind. So to a degree I agree with DPR Jones, who said religiosity was an inevitable consequence of human psychology, and we're not going to escape it. I would only qualify that statement with "many people," not all.

Opinions?
First off, I've been off forums too long. I got confused by your disagreement with the disagreement, lol.

I don't know that religiosity per se is essential to mental health in anyone, but I do think it's inevitable for some. Combine the instincts of faith and tribalism, you get religiosity.

Will read the source link when I've caught up on the thread.

ETA: Perhaps it would be helpful to define "religiosity." What does it mean to you?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
ETA: Perhaps it would be helpful to define "religiosity." What does it mean to you?
I go along with the dictionary definition. "The quality of being religious." Religiousness, if you like. It would include all the common aspects of being religious; belief, piety, dedication, and those acts consistent with a particular religion.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
I go along with the dictionary definition. "The quality of being religious." Religiousness, if you like. It would include all the common aspects of being religious; belief, piety, dedication, and those acts consistent with a particular religion.
Ah... my meaning is a bit more nuanced than that.

To me, it means being focused on religion rather than spirituality. "We're right, you're wrong!"
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Ah... my meaning is a bit more nuanced than that.

To me, it means being focused on religion rather than spirituality. "We're right, you're wrong!"
Although I think that's certainly one of the prevailing attitudes among many (most?) believers, I see religiosity as being more than this.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Although I think that's certainly one of the prevailing attitudes among many (most?) believers, I see religiosity as being more than this.
Fair enough. My intent wasn't to quibble over semantics, but to get on the same page.

To answer the question you asked, rather than the one I heard:

I don't believe people with a healthy spirituality (which includes many non-believers) NEED God or religion. Nor are those that do in the majority. They exist, certainly, but so do people with no legs.
 

Vendetta

"Oscar the grouch"
I think we are, whether it exists or not. But that's a topic for another thread. :)

Interesting but with religiousity I don't know if we are geared toward being religious psychologically. I see that humans develop an aesthetic appreciation of nature and of culture but religion is too complex.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Interesting but with religiousity I don't know if we are geared toward being religious psychologically. I see that humans develop an aesthetic appreciation of nature and of culture but religion is too complex.
Oh, I could bend your ear on this.... *resists urge to threadjack*
 
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