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Is religious satire ever unacceptable?

Is religious satire ever unacceptable?


  • Total voters
    30

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
OK...... Yes, I would want a satire based on the rape of a woman who wore a small dress in a park to be banned. Yes, I would.
........ Or a grotesque cartoon of, say, our Queen in some horrible scenario.....
OK.... I admit it, there are many scenarios which I would want to be censored or controlled.

But in a way, George, you do agree to this. Please, let me explain........
You belong to religiousforums.com and you do agree to a much higher level of decency than I propose. If you demanded, insisted upon a totally uncontrolled level of speech and expression you probably would not, on principle, belong to such a tight;ly moderated forum.... ?
The difference is I like a forum that maintains some degree of decency. I don't want to be replied to with some sarcastic smut cartoon. But RF is privately run, and the people that run the forum want it run with a certain manner of decorum. But I think another group of people should be allowed to open a forum where absolutely everything goes. If it gets too trashy, I just wouldn't participate but I would still think that trashy forum should be allowed to exist. It's the old 'I hate what you say but I will defend your right to say it' rule that wins the day for me. Freedom of speech comes with the freedom to ignore too.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The difference is I like a forum that maintains some degree of decency. I don't want to be replied to with some sarcastic smut cartoon. But RF is privately run, and the people that run the forum want it run with a certain manner of decorum. But I think another group of people should be allowed to open a forum where absolutely everything goes. If it gets too trashy, I just wouldn't participate but I would still think that trashy forum should be allowed to exist. It's the old 'I hate what you say but I will defend your right to say it' rule that wins the day for me. Freedom of speech comes with the freedom to ignore too.

I don't know...... I'm not sure.
Certainly there are some expressions which are definitely banned in the UK. Anything which incites terrorism or crime, for instance. I'm not saying that applies here, ok?

I don't like media which set out to deliberately upset minorities........ even majorities. Especially in situations where a country should be trying to reduce tension with a group which is separating away from the majority.

I have been arguing that the Muslim Council for Britain should be doing more to encourage Muslims to align with our Equality and Schooling Laws, etc etc...... but how could they assist when their followers are so upset by stuff similar to this?

George..... we are not doing enough to help them to help us........ This freedom to upset should be separated from freedom to express....
 

dust1n

Zindīq
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Where "humor" is used as a cover for intolerance, bigotry, and hatred, I'd like to think most of us would find that unacceptable.

I am quite willing to tolerate a great degree of intolerance, bigotry, and hatred in the interests of preserving freedoms, such as freedom of speech and conscience. Although I suppose I don't actually accept some things in every sense of the word "acceptance".
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
So far as I can see, the main reason for clamping down on satire and humor is not to protect a god, but to protect repressive societies and institutions.
Spot on.

The continued attempts of religious leaders to dilute free speech, and human rights in general, in the Muslim world is not an attempt to protect God or even Muslims. It's about maintaining the structure that maintains their power.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Spot on.
The continued attempts of religious leaders to dilute free speech, and human rights in general, in the Muslim world is not an attempt to protect God or even Muslims. It's about maintaining the structure that maintains their power.
That's how the religious right plays in America. It's very common for their criticisms to not apply in any way to what they are attacking. However, what they criticize very often undermines their values and suggests they are not high and mighty. Rage Against the Machine and Marilyn Manson come to mind, as what they are typically accused of is nowhere to be found, but they have very strong messages against those in power.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
I think all religions are fully worthy of satire, ridicule and condemnation along with any political ideology which includes my own. Religions are not needed like politics and their existence is a burden. Ridiculing religion is like ridiculing stupidity. Religion just sits at the throne of it
 
Much of the most pointed and painful mockery that I've seen from satirists from Charlie Hebdo to Bill Maher to Fox News pundits is remarkable to me because it seems poorly aimed. It misses the intended target.

Take a look at the famous or infamous cartoons by Charlie Hebdo cartoonists and others that feature depictions of the Prophet Muhammad doing things that are degrading, violent, or against Islamic principle. Listen to Bill Maher talk about how "all religions are stupid and dangerous". The target of this mockery—or perhaps more significantly, the person, group or thing that it is in response to—is, in these cases, Islamist extremists.

Those, however, are not the people who are affected by the mockery. A cartoon depicting Muhammad as a terrorist, or doing something Muslims would consider degrading does not hurt the members of ISIS. It does not hurt Islamist or fundamentalist extremists. It may make them more angry; it may validate their certainty that western culture is indeed an attack on their faith, such as they conceive it to be, but it will not hurt them.

And that is the point of mockery—to inflict emotional pain or discomfort on the target audience. Unfortunately, the people who are hurt by this—who are emotionally wounded and confused by it—are not the intended target, but the Muslims and other religious people who live in the society informed by the satirical pieces. The only group that is positively affected by the mockery are people who share that view of the world.

Maybe this encounter I had in an online atheist forum a while back will illustrate what I mean. I was having a dialogue with an atheist (or rather an anti-theist) who when I failed to adhere to his idea of a religious person (I was assertively pro-science, accepted evolution and the extreme age of the Earth and the Universe, etc.) resorted to mockery, including referring to me as a Bahooey and making jokes about a conception of God that was simplistic and childish and which I don't believe in. He also attacked a Christian poster who had always been reasonable, courteous and who had never been remotely preachy.

I asked him why the mockery. What did he hope to accomplish? He wasn't likely to sway a person of faith, for one thing because he was refusing to engage them in dialogue in favor of hurling insults at a stereotype (which could not, he informed me, actually hurt any reasonable person's feelings.) I observed that, from my experience, when you assaulted someone's beliefs with a barrage of mockery, they were inclined to simply shore up their defenses, tune you out or, like our Christian friend, leave the discussion.

"Well, that's true," my atheist acquaintance said. "I don't really expect to convert a religious person to reason through mockery. It's really people like AgnosticCommenter we're speaking to. We hope to engage the fence sitters."

The fence sitter in question piped up at about that moment to comment that he, too, was leaving the discussion because the "regulars" had become combative and sarcastic and he no longer saw real communication taking place. (We later became online friends, actually, because he was impressed with the way I kept my cool in the face of attempts to enrage me :)

"Well, okay," the anti-theist said finally, "I guess this is really about preaching to the choir. We need this sort of banter to create solidarity and rally the troops."

I'm not, for a moment, saying that satire should be legislated against (unless it violates applicable laws against hate speech or incitement to commit crimes against humanity), I'm just not sure how effective it is in creating a positive and rational atmosphere around ANY subject matter. If it only wrest to entrench the target of the anger and mockery in their world view, hurts people who are not the target, and gets laughter only from those who already hold the same critical view, then does it really have a positive impact on anything? Does it facilitate communication about important matters or shut it down?

If there are fence sitters in this case, who have no opinions of Islam, say, because they simply know nothing about it, how positive is it if their introduction to the faith of Muhammad comes in the form of a rude caricature of it?

Just something I've been pondering lately...
 
I think all religions are fully worthy of satire, ridicule and condemnation along with any political ideology which includes my own. Religions are not needed like politics and their existence is a burden. Ridiculing religion is like ridiculing stupidity. Religion just sits at the throne of it

I respectfully disagree. Religion isn't what sits on the throne of stupidity. We do. We will use anything—resources, gender, sex, politics, education, science even religion (the teachings of which many of us claim to believe are sacred)—and make it serve our own ends.

When I was about 19, I had finally had enough of the cognitive dissonance generated by the radical difference between what clergymen and theologists said were the core principles Christ's faith and what Christ said were the core principles of His faith. I looked at the possibility of atheism as a world view but, like Bertrand Russell (I'm sure you know who that is) I saw clearly that if we actually lived by such prescriptive teachings as Christ's Sermon on the Mount, the world would be transformed for the better. I ultimately decided that the Universe made more sense with God in it.

The problem is not religion it what we choose to do with it. Short form: the buck stops with us.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
I respectfully disagree. Religion isn't what sits on the throne of stupidity. We do. We will use anything—resources, gender, sex, politics, education, science even religion (the teachings of which many of us claim to believe are sacred)—and make it serve our own ends.

We gave birth to religion, mankind created religions with his own will and intents. Religions are designed solely to serve the wants, desire and even needs of others.

When I was about 19, I had finally had enough of the cognitive dissonance generated by the radical difference between what clergymen and theologists said were the core principles Christ's faith and what Christ said were the core principles of His faith. I looked at the possibility of atheism as a world view but, like Bertrand Russell (I'm sure you know who that is) I saw clearly that if we actually lived by such prescriptive teachings as Christ's Sermon on the Mount, the world would be transformed for the better. I ultimately decided that the Universe made more sense with God in it.

The world does not make more sense with god in it. You say one thing but insinuate the other essentially you are making the fallacy of emotional appeal. You also do not know Russell well.

The problem is not religion it what we choose to do with it. Short form: the buck stops with us.

The problem is religion as you have shown. It offers false hope and false happiness. The amount of double thinks in your reasoning is astonishing.
 
I think it was pretty clear that I meant the Universe makes more sense to me, with God in it. You have no idea why that is because I haven't stated why that is or what process I went through to reach that conclusion. Therefore it would be presumptuous of you to prejudge that I'm "making the fallacy of emotional appeal". I just shared a conclusion and nothing about how I reached it. That would take a long while because I did not come to my beliefs through a purely emotional process (in fact, I was rather emotionally inclined not to believe what I ultimately came to accept, but as I said, that's a long story).

I agree with you in part and I disagree in part about the genesis of religion. My own experience has led me to accept the existence of God and "His" use of human intermediaries to deliver principles and teachings that are for our benefit (such as what we like to call the Golden Rule). It's most natural for me to put it this way I suppose: God wrote Religion (spirituality/faith) and we edited it to our liking.

You hold a different point of view. That's fine.

Now, please explain what you mean by "You say one thing, but insinuate the other". And where have I used "double thinks" (sic).
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
I favor satire.

Example......
Darwin & Satan making out on The Simpsons.....
tumblr_m8o35wnUYd1qebwl2o2_500.png
1 - freedom of speech is the most important pillars of democracy
2. religious symbols can talk about whatever the sanctity has followed
3. You have the sacred but I have not sacred
4. When I speak with him , and the oldest of proof , it means that I speak the truth
5. any religion or doctrine or ideology prevent criticism against it is a failure
6. strong religion can defend itself in the same way
 
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