Is "salvation" possible under the Law?

[Reggie Miller]

You missed the other part.
The Ebionites understood that they too could become a Christ if they fulfilled the Law.
Why would they think such a thing?
It is because their is reason to believe that Jesus was an Ebionite.

Yet, it is correctly pointed out by Prof. Hyam Maccoby in The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity, that: "The Ebionites are thus by no means a negligible or derisory group. Their claim to represent the original teaching of Jesus has to be taken seriously. It is quite wrong, therefore, to dismiss what they had to say about Paul as unworthy of attention." Prof. Maccoby then writes: "Consequently, if the Gospel of Matthew contains assertions by Jesus about the validity of the Torah, this is strong evidence that Jesus actually made these assertions, for only a persistent and unquenchable tradition that Jesus said these things would have induced the author of the Gospel to include such recalcitrant material, going against the grain of his own narrative and standpoint. If Jesus himself was an adherent of the Torah, there was no need for re-Judaization on the part of the Nazarenes in Jerusalem, who were simply continuing the attitudes of Jesus. But, in any case, several scholars have now come to think that the loyalty of the Jerusalem movement to the Torah is itself strong evidence that Jesus was similarly loyal. It is, after all, implausible, to say the least, that the close followers of Jesus, his companions during his lifetime, led by his brother, should have so misunderstood him that they reversed his views immediately after his death. The 'stupidity' motif characterizing the disciples in the Gospels is best understood as a Pauline attempt to explain away the attachment of the 'Jerusalem Church' to Judaism, rather than as historical obtuseness."
The Ebionite Home Page

You don't say? I wish you hadn't.

 

[allfoak]

You don't say? I wish you hadn't.

Of course you wish i hadn't.
Why would you want to see direct evidence contrary to your beliefs?

 

[CG Didymus]

Christianity is not "Choosing to believe Christians" it is "Choosing to believe Christ."
Believe or don't ... I'm not your mother.

Who wrote the NT? Christians. Who interprets it and then preaches it? Christians. Do all of them agree? No. So how do you believe Christ without reading a book written by Christians or hear a sermon or get witnessed by a Christian?

 

[Reggie Miller]

Of course you wish i hadn't.
Why would you want to see direct evidence contrary to your beliefs?

I already have seen it. Speculation and assumption.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is not expected that we can, according to the Tanakh, which is why there are procedures established to seek God's forgiveness and various penalties if we fail to do that.

Is jay-walking the same as murder thus punishable by execution? Neither is the Law as such. Since there are different potential penalties for different violations, common sense should tell us that God doesn't view all the Laws as being the same, nor would they be dealt with in the same way.

Thanks for your post, Metis. Who was it Paul that said something about breaking the least of the laws made a person guilty of all of them? Where does he get that from? But, Christians can't keep the "laws" Christ gave them, so what's the difference? Yet, they think of themselves as "saved"? Saved from what? Hell? Saved because their sins have been forgiven? Doesn't God forgive Jews when they sin? If they sin and repent doesn't God notice? Did God even give the Jews such a concept of "personal salvation"? Did God ever tell the Jews if they didn't "believe" a follow the "commandments" they would be cast into hell after they died?

Christianity changed the rules, that's fine for them. But, unfortunately, they made their religion the "only" truth. And to do that they had to make Judaism wrong and obsolete... along with every other religion in the world. But that's what Islam did to Christianity and the Baha'i Faith did to Islam. Christianity got replaced by a newer "truth" from from God. Everything about Christianity got re-interpreted... New words, new purpose, new way of "being" saved. But, still, a good person of any religion believes in their "truth" and tries to obey what their religion teaches. The cultural anthropologist in me says, "What the difference?" And all the "We are the only way people" from the various religions say "Yeah, you can believe all the way to hell." Oy vay (Did I pronounce that right?)

 

[allfoak]

I already have seen it. Speculation and assumption.

This is the point at which the conversation ends and you stop learning.

 

[Reggie Miller]

This is the point at which the conversation ends and you stop learning.

No need to hear more assumptions made by people who think they know something they don't know. I don't waste time on such things. But you can go ahead and knock yourself out.

When they/you can show me that something actually happened, come back and see me. In the meantime, I don't want to hear speculation. If I did I could always tune in to Oprah Winfrey.

 

[metis]

Thanks for your post, Metis. Who was it Paul that said something about breaking the least of the laws made a person guilty of all of them? Where does he get that from? But, Christians can't keep the "laws" Christ gave them, so what's the difference? Yet, they think of themselves as "saved"? Saved from what? Hell? Saved because their sins have been forgiven? Doesn't God forgive Jews when they sin? If they sin and repent doesn't God notice? Did God even give the Jews such a concept of "personal salvation"? Did God ever tell the Jews if they didn't "believe" a follow the "commandments" they would be cast into hell after they died?

Christianity changed the rules, that's fine for them. But, unfortunately, they made their religion the "only" truth. And to do that they had to make Judaism wrong and obsolete... along with every other religion in the world. But that's what Islam did to Christianity and the Baha'i Faith did to Islam. Christianity got replaced by a newer "truth" from from God. Everything about Christianity got re-interpreted... New words, new purpose, new way of "being" saved. But, still, a good person of any religion believes in their "truth" and tries to obey what their religion teaches. The cultural anthropologist in me says, "What the difference?" And all the "We are the only way people" from the various religions say "Yeah, you can believe all the way to hell." Oy vay (Did I pronounce that right?)

And thank you so much for your response. Have a great weekend.

 

[CG Didymus]

What "salvation" was offered under the Law?

How would you answer that? Nobody is going to keep the Law perfect. When they missed the mark, God made provisions for them to get their sins forgiven, and I wouldn't say the sacrifice was the big deal... I think it's the repenting. Since people were considered "right" with God in the Jewish Bible, then to me, they were "saved". And some of them, like Enoch, Abraham and Noah were even before the Law. But after the Law, the main one is David. He certainly wasn't perfect, so the keeping of the Law isn't what "saved" him. It's his faith and repenting despite his failures.

But another important part of this is indeed: What was the "salvation" offered under the Law? Salvation for Christians depends on the devil and hell and being "lost" in your sin and the need to gain eternal life. I don't see those things being presented in the same way, or at all, in Jewish Scriptures. Sorry, but it causes me to doubt the two religions are really all that related. To me, it's more like the relationship between Christianity and Islam. They believe in some of the stuff in the Bible, but disregard things too... and then they make their own separate religion. Thanks, CG

 

[Reggie Miller]

How would you answer that? Nobody is going to keep the Law perfect. When they missed the mark, God made provisions for them to get their sins forgiven, and I wouldn't say the sacrifice was the big deal... I think it's the repenting. Since people were considered "right" with God in the Jewish Bible, then to me, they were "saved". And some of them, like Enoch, Abraham and Noah were even before the Law. But after the Law, the main one is David. He certainly wasn't perfect, so the keeping of the Law isn't what "saved" him. It's his faith and repenting despite his failures.

But another important part of this is indeed: What was the "salvation" offered under the Law? Salvation for Christians depends on the devil and hell and being "lost" in your sin and the need to gain eternal life. I don't see those things being presented in the same way, or at all, in Jewish Scriptures. Sorry, but it causes me to doubt the two religions are really all that related. To me, it's more like the relationship between Christianity and Islam. They believe in some of the stuff in the Bible, but disregard things too... and then they make their own separate religion. Thanks, CG

Good post.

"It's his faith and repenting"

Men were and always have been saved by faith:

Gen. 15:6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Heb. 11:5 5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Rom. 5:1-2 Therefore, since we have been justified have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

 

[CG Didymus]

Good post.

"It's his faith and repenting"

Men were and always have been saved by faith:

Gen. 15:6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Heb. 11:5 5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Rom. 5:1-2 Therefore, since we have been justified have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

Thanks Reggie. I've got some more questions that I'll be asking in other threads. I hope you check them out and offer your thoughts. Thanks again. CG

 

[Reggie Miller]

Thanks Reggie. I've got some more questions that I'll be asking in other threads. I hope you check them out and offer your thoughts. Thanks again. CG

I'll follow you and try to keep up with you. But Reggie is an old man now.

 

[CG Didymus]

I'll follow you and try to keep up with you. But Reggie is an old man now.

Don't give me that. Is that a current picture of you? But really, I've got so many questions. Because the next thing is: Even if a person has faith, and repents and all that, what if they don't believe in the right thing? I always bring up Gandhi or Mother Teresa. But even good Mormons, Baha'is, JW's etc. They're good people, but their religion might be off a little.

It ties in here, because Christians do believe Jews have the correct truth from God. But then when Jesus came, they were supposed to follow Him. Some did, and a lot didn't. But now, what about today? What does God do with Jews that do have faith and do repent, but they've been taught that Jesus is not the true Messiah?

The easy answer is that God will guide them to find the truth of Jesus. But then my next question is: What about during the Inquisition? If a Jew did convert back then, what kind of Christianity were they getting themselves into? Were they even taught about salvation through faith in Jesus? Or, salvation by doing what priests and popes told them to do? Some converted to avoid being tortured and killed, others took death. Which ones were right?

I know, it's tough to answer. And you don't have to answer if you don't want to, but that's the kind of things I wonder about. But if you do think about, and it hurts your head too much, go shoot some free throws or something and try to relax. Hey, thanks... and I'm glad you're taking the time to deal with all of this. I know it can be a headache at times. CG

 

[Reggie Miller]

Don't give me that. Is that a current picture of you? But really, I've got so many questions. Because the next thing is: Even if a person has faith, and repents and all that, what if they don't believe in the right thing? I always bring up Gandhi or Mother Teresa. But even good Mormons, Baha'is, JW's etc. They're good people, but their religion might be off a little.

It ties in here, because Christians do believe Jews have the correct truth from God. But then when Jesus came, they were supposed to follow Him. Some did, and a lot didn't. But now, what about today? What does God do with Jews that do have faith and do repent, but they've been taught that Jesus is not the true Messiah?

The easy answer is that God will guide them to find the truth of Jesus. But then my next question is: What about during the Inquisition? If a Jew did convert back then, what kind of Christianity were they getting themselves into? Were they even taught about salvation through faith in Jesus? Or, salvation by doing what priests and popes told them to do? Some converted to avoid being tortured and killed, others took death. Which ones were right?

I know, it's tough to answer. And you don't have to answer if you don't want to, but that's the kind of things I wonder about. But if you do think about, and it hurts your head too much, go shoot some free throws or something and try to relax. Hey, thanks... and I'm glad you're taking the time to deal with all of this. I know it can be a headache at times. CG

You are asking very good questions. Do you live near a priest or pastor of a Christian church? I would recommend speaking with a Bible believing priest or pastor. Or if you have the time, talk to several of them. Verify what they say by looking it up in the Bible. This is a good reference:

BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.

You can look anything up by subject or verse in most any translation.

All of your questions except the one about the Inquisition can be answered in the Bible.

And no, that's not a picture of me, I wish! Reggie is a great basketball player from the past who I happen to like very much, so much that I adopted his name and pic to join this forum. I am much older and not quite so handsome, to say the least.

 

[Forgiven1]

So if Abraham and the others mentioned are considered "saved", then it was by faith or trust in God even though at times they "sinned". I know that somewhere Jesus says that if you love me you'll keep my commandments. So keeping rules, laws and commandments is expected, but it's the faith that makes a person saved or not saved?

So with all the talk about how the "Law" can't save you, mostly by Paul, is kind of twisting things isn't it? If, prior to Jesus, a Jew had faith in God, that Jew should be saved right?

But now what happens with the Jew that believes in God and follows the commands as best he or she can, but, because they are taught that Jesus is not the true Messiah, they don't believe in Jesus? If a Christian answers that those Jews are not saved, then what? God sends all Jews from the time of Jesus until now that didn't believe in Jesus to hell?

Hello I would respond to the question that anyone who rejects Jesus will have to pay the consequences of they're own actions and we are not able to remove any blemishes "sin" on our own to enter heaven that's why we accept the free gift of the precious blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse those blemishes away so we are able to enter the kingdom.

 

[Ben Avraham]

How would you answer that? Nobody is going to keep the Law perfect. When they missed the mark, God made provisions for them to get their sins forgiven, and I wouldn't say the sacrifice was the big deal... I think it's the repenting. Since people were considered "right" with God in the Jewish Bible, then to me, they were "saved". And some of them, like Enoch, Abraham and Noah were even before the Law. But after the Law, the main one is David. He certainly wasn't perfect, so the keeping of the Law isn't what "saved" him. It's his faith and repenting despite his failures.

But another important part of this is indeed: What was the "salvation" offered under the Law? Salvation for Christians depends on the devil and hell and being "lost" in your sin and the need to gain eternal life. I don't see those things being presented in the same way, or at all, in Jewish Scriptures. Sorry, but it causes me to doubt the two religions are really all that related. To me, it's more like the relationship between Christianity and Islam. They believe in some of the stuff in the Bible, but disregard things too... and then they make their own separate religion. Thanks, CG

The salvation achieved under the Law is personal salvation. Salvation from the consequences of transgressing the Law. If we obey the Law, we are free of the consequences as a result of transgressing the Law. It is worth the try, believe me!

 

[psychoslice]

Well, its either you are saved by works or faith, they go together, if you don't obey the law you are done for, so the old tale goes.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Is salvation Possible Under the Law?

ONLY under the Law is salvation possible. Nothing else can save you from the consequences of having transgressed the Law but obedience of the Law. And it helps to think of Jesus' warning that we should listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

 

[CG Didymus]

Hello I would respond to the question that anyone who rejects Jesus will have to pay the consequences of they're own actions and we are not able to remove any blemishes "sin" on our own to enter heaven that's why we accept the free gift of the precious blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse those blemishes away so we are able to enter the kingdom.

I think the question I asked Reggie is a good one for you too then. So long after Jesus' time we have Jews that stayed with Judaism. They were taught about God and the Law, then "Christians" came and tried to force them to convert. It was the Inquisition. The "Christianity" of the time was not the "born-again" Protestant Christianity of today. I would imagine it didn't say much about being born-again and being saved at all. Should those Jews have converted to that "Christianity" or stayed true to their Jewish beliefs?

 

[CG Didymus]

Well, its either you are saved by works or faith, they go together, if you don't obey the law you are done for, so the old tale goes.

It is so crazy talking to Protestant Christians. They get saved and then they do have to follow some "rules" of behavior. So what is the difference. A Jew believes God. A Jew believes their Bible. The Bible tells them what God wants them to do. They try their best to obey those rules. If they fall short... they ask to be forgiven and repent. Does God forgive them or what?

We all know, and some of us have been there, that a "Christian" can go through the motions, but don't believe 100%. So if they aren't believing "with all their heart" and are not obeying His commands, are they "saved"? By being a little bit Christian, they are better than not at all, but they are still living a hypocritical life. So who is God going to allow into His Kingdom? A humble and pious Jew or a lukewarm Christian... but then again, who isn't a little lukewarm? Thanks Psychoslice, I don't know exactly where you're coming from, but I like it.