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Is Science Compatible with Mysticism?

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It would seem that this thread has turned into more about why mysticism is valid and therefore compatible with science, rather than how science is compatible with mysticism. Clearly there is a consensus on both sides of the question. The down side of this is that those consensus opinions seem to be at odds with each other.
If you stop to think about this, what you have are not those who love and embrace science on one side, and mystics on the others, each sharing a consensus opinion in their respective camps. That is not the groupings I see at all.

What I see is one the one hand you have those who love and embrace both science and mysticism, who have experience with both, and on the other hand those who love and embrace science only, without claiming any personal experience with mysticism to speak from. So, in this situation, you have those who have experience with both who say they are compatible, and those without experience in both who say they aren't.

Is that a fair appraisal?

The Mystic camp seems to believe that mysticism is compatible with science, while those representing science certainly seem to have their doubts.
Nope. We represent the science side as well no more or less than any other average person in this discussion who embraces science. The only difference is those who doubt the compatibility of mysticism and science, aren't mystics. :) Both camps represent science. Only one, mysticism.

Odd, I have not heard one voice from the mystic side say they are incompatible. Why is that? Why does that only come from the side of those without mystical experience?

Historically, we are in a bit of a peculiar era, in that in modern science we have specialists in a given field of research, or in a couple of related fields, whereas in the past the scientist was often a religious scholar with a deep religious/spiritual nature, a mathematician, a medical doctor, a poet and so on. Their work straddled a wide range of areas. I don't see this era of specialization changing anytime soon, due to the complexity of modern investigation and the complexity of the theories in play.
Well, this is an astute point on your part. Specialists get tunnel vision and don't see things holistically. If you want to put a point on what mysticism offers its this right here: A Holistic view.

I do believe that mystics could help scientists to a degree, so I have been thinking of ways that mystics could lend a proverbial hand. Two areas stand out, at least to me, given my personal experience with both.

1. Meditation
2. Lucid dreaming
Most definitely meditation. Also, a general broadening in worldview through many means, rather than this tunnel-visioned, reductionist mentality that life can be reduced to a component level knowledge. That's not how one human being alive approaches life, except perhaps the nerdiest, most socially inept person alive.
 
Hi all,

I hope you all won't mind if I respond to a few people in a single post. I haven't been able to respond for a few days.

Empirically speaking, if it is not verifiable it cannot be reality.
No, empiricism doesn't say that if something is not verifiable it cannot be real. Empiricism only says that if something is not verifiable, we can't be sure whether it is real or not. So, getting back to what you said: "But if, as you say, the empirical method is the best, you have to realize that it's not reality that is being determined, but a continuing narrative based on the previous accepted narrative." No, you don't have to realize that. You only have to realize that is a possibility.

If, as you admit, science is imperfect, it is impossible to know that it's conclusions about reality are reliable.
It's impossible to know with 100% certainty that the conclusions of science are reliable, yes. Do you acknowledge the concept of probabilities and gradations of certainty?

godnotgod said:
How can you arbitrarily say it is the 'best method', when you are still looking at the mystical experience from the outside, through your filters of logic, analysis, and 'reason', when it is outside those spheres of investigation?
What we are doing in this thread is not outside the spheres of logic, analysis, and reason. You used reason right there in your question. That's because we aren't "doing" mysticism right now. If we were doing mysticism--or music or sports or drugs for that matter--we would not need reason. What we are doing right now is reasoning about mystical experiences, what they tell us about reality, and how that relates to what science more broadly tells us about reality. You are using reason and science too (e.g. quantum mechanics) I just think there are problems with your arguments.

Your balance is imperfect. Does that mean you can't walk?
...
Your argument is basically that imperfect means it cannot be reliable, which is not valid, but more importantly it doesn't say anything about the reliability of anything else. If I determine that my cell phone reception isn't reliable, I have no reason to suspect that telepathy is a better way to try reach someone.
Exactly. Bravo! :clap:

Your quote above doesn't say matter isn't real. Planck states what he can say about atoms: "es gibt keine Materie an sich". Not that there is no matter, but that atoms don't exist as thought previously. The fact that he believes matter exists, quite apart from the fact that has only talked about a particular way of understanding atoms, is the next line. Because he begins by saying what all matter is. If matter doesn't exist, than matter can't be anything. And as he continues talking about atoms, it is quite clear that he is believes in matter. He's saying something about the nature of atoms.
...
1) Have you come across an equation e=mc^2 or "energy= mass multiplied by the speed of light squared"? Because again, in order for this to be true, there must be mass (and matter). It is simply a description of equivalency which apparently has been quoted by thousands who've never studied physics. In order for Einstein's own equation to work, we need matter.
Again, exactly. And by the way, was it science or mysticism that allowed us to discover this equivalency? Suppose Einstein had been wrong and actually the luminiferous ether existed, a medium through which light travels, permeating the entire universe; suppose it had turned out that mass = charge or mass = force. Wouldn't some mystics still be trying to say "I told you so"? It's not hard to imagine: "Mystics since time immemorial knew that there's a medium permeating the entire universe (Oneness) and that all matter is really just force (everything is connected)."
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
No, empiricism doesn't say that if something is not verifiable it cannot be real. Empiricism only says that if something is not verifiable, we can't be sure whether it is real or not. So, getting back to what you said: "But if, as you say, the empirical method is the best, you have to realize that it's not reality that is being determined, but a continuing narrative based on the previous accepted narrative." No, you don't have to realize that. You only have to realize that is a possibility.

It's impossible to know with 100% certainty that the conclusions of science are reliable, yes. Do you acknowledge the concept of probabilities and gradations of certainty?
I was just quoting others, but in any case, it is reality we are testing empirically, we are not testing fantasy; if something is not verifiable it is because it's not tested and no empiricism is involved. Mathematical objects would be an example.

Empirically speaking, testing is involved and a judgement of verification is possible.

Possibility/probability is the narrative, certainty would be truth.


With empiricism we are building a picture of the world.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I cannot agree with the highlighted part. A mystic can be a good scientist.

Of course. There's actually a book How the Hippies Saved Physics: Science, Counterculture and the Quantum Revival by David Kaiser. It covers (among other things) the important work done by scientists in Elizabeth Rauscher’s "Fundamental Fysiks Group" and the influence of "Eastern mysticism". While I don't entirely agree with the extent Kaiser argues this influence had, neither would I agree with Silvan Schweber's marginalizing of this group.

However, there were and are also many negatives. It is one thing for scientists to use ideas from mysticism or from ceremonial magic to test hypotheses. It is quite another to "bend" (or break) the standards of scientific practice when doing so.

There is a reason why one can find a lot of published work on noetics as a science. It's because the the editorial boards and the peer-reviewers responsible for deciding whether a particular study meets the standard for publication are almost entirely composed of a single group of researchers who created The Noetic Journal, the Noetic Press, the Vigier conference, etc., so that they could bypass the scientific practices and standards and still call the resulting work "peer-reviewed" science.

This might seem perfectly fine to some, or even great. Note, though, that this is exactly how "creationsist science" is published. There are times when consensus is such that the "mainstream" views within a field tend to unfairly include supporting research and unfairly exclude contrary research.

This is not true when it comes to the scientists behind noetics research. First, I am familiar with many of the authors whose work is published by Noetic Press. That's primarily because some or much of their work is published by universities, the AAAS (which publishes the journal Science among other things), the IEEE, and similar "standard/typical" sources of scientific literature. So it's not like they are ignored by "mainstream" science.

Second, there is no consensus on the primary topics that the "science" of Noetics focuses on, such as consciousness, cosmology, unified theories, etc. The volume The Holographic Anthropic Multiverse (by two key members of the "Noetic Advanced Studies Institute") not only makes references to God, theology, and Eastern philosophies, but was pulished in an academic monograph series which itself is published by World Scientific. World Scientific is a leading publisher of scientific literature. They publish, for example, the International Journal of Modern Physics A, and to get a rough idea as to how physicists view this journal, you can compare the link above (it's not to the journal) with that of European Physical Journal D. Even though the latter journal has more publications (issues/volumes of the journal), the former journal (the one published by World Scientific) is cited more. Also, the European journal tends to cite itself a lot, indicating that fewer researchers actually cite it.

Can mystics be good physicists? Absolutely. Can they do so by drawing on ideas from mystical traditions/beliefs practices? Yes. Can they do so using or trying to show the validity of mystic beliefs/practices/etc.? Not so much. Which is why when they do, they have to rely on "scientific" outlets that they control for such research.
 

Open_Minded

Nothing is Separate
I... Nope. We represent the science side as well no more or less than any other average person in this discussion who embraces science. The only difference is those who doubt the compatibility of mysticism and science, aren't mystics. :) Both camps represent science. Only one, mysticism......
Overall an excellent post Windwalker. But this point is most important.

The mystics in this conversation may have (at times) tried to explain something that can not be explained. But that dynamic does not change the basic problem. The basic problem is just as you stated above. The mystics in this conversation accept the validity of science. We see no competition between the two and feel they are both quite compatible.

There are those from who come at this from an ONLY Science perspective. They are treating materialism and reductionism as if they are religious adherents rather than objective seekers of reality. Because objective seekers of reality would look at the long (ancient) cross-culture traditions of mysticism all pointing to the same "That which IS" for lack of a better term.

If these scientific seekers of the truth really held empiricism in such high regard, they would do the most basic thing possible. They would take the inner journey themselves. There is nothing stopping them, but their own biases - because in their minds ... " Meditation is nothing but hokum." (sigh)
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Beyond this, I'm hard pressed to think of anything that the mystic might have to offer the scientific community.

Any thoughts?

"Oh Lotus-eyed one, sweet of touch, when singing, seeing, tasting, be aware you are and discover the ever-living."

With the understanding that you find both Chopra and Osho distasteful, (this is not really about them, anyway), perhaps you can look beyond them for a moment to consider the following:

In a video in which mystics and atheists debated, Chopra was confronted by an audience member on his incorporation of Quantum Physics within the mystical view. This person was Leonard Mlodinow, a theoretical physicist. Chopra said to him:


"You are an infinite being who's taken on the identity of a physicist in space and time."

[youtube]Z17sIJyQ3oY[/youtube]
Physicist Leonard Mlodinow vs. Deepak Chopra.WMV - YouTube

Chopra and Mlodinow later not only became friends, they collaborated on a book together.

But the point has to do with a technique developed by the master Gurdjieff for Westerners called 'Self-Remembering', similar to Mindfullness, in which one divides one's attention as self and self-observer as a means of Awakening. It is based on the sutra quoted above.


"In Gurdjieff's own words, Self Remembering could be described thus - "There are moments when you become aware not only of what you are doing but also of yourself doing it. You see both ‘I’ and the ‘here’ of ‘I am here’- both the anger and the ‘I’ that is angry. Call this self-remembering if you like." (Views From the Real World)"

Here is Osho on the subject:

Self-remembering

This can be practiced by the scientist at any time during his day as he goes about his duties.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
If these scientific seekers of the truth really held empiricism in such high regard, they would do the most basic thing possible. They would take the inner journey themselves. There is nothing stopping them, but their own biases - because in their minds ... " Meditation is nothing but hokum." (sigh)

Yes, a truly open-minded scientist might see it as a means of testing via direct participation. Mystics have always said: 'Go see for yourself."

I can imagine, in some not too distant future, a scientific research facility which hosts various spiritual exercises during the day for their scientists. Meditation, breath control, self-remembering techniques, guest lectures, etc.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Science does not even scratch the surface to solving the pain in humanity.

To some extent I agree. We can actually look at how one science, psychiatry, which was and is about helping people suffering from mental/emotional issues has caused more harm than good. If I start in on the problems psychiatry has caused not just to those with mental health problems but with everything from the criminal justic system to public policies, I'd go off on a rant which would be long even for me.

That said, I don't just come from a educational background in science, nor are my studies all science related. So this I find unfair:
You give it far more credit than I do..... you don't just give it credit - you worship it because you give nothing else room in your life to provide answers. And that is sad.

I had two undergrad majors and one minor, but only two of those (one being the minor) were sciences. The other was classical languages (ancient Greek & Latin).

Although I eventually became interested in linguistics, that's not why I chose that major, I did so because I wanted to read religious and philosophical texts (and translations don't cut it).

I definitely changed my plans for an academic career (I had intended to be a clinical psychologist), but I did not stop studying religious/spiritual topics and the discourse between religion, science, and philosophy.

That is flat our wrong, but then again - if you really took mysticism seriously you'd study enough of its history to know that even after 1000s of years it continues to serve many.

I've studied historical scholarship in the four languages which have the longest tradition of historical study (including that of religion) and of ethnology/anthropology that exist: French, German, Italian, and English. I've also read primary sources as far back as written language goes. Apart from older forms of English & biblical Hebrew, my ability to read languages like Sanskrit, Hittite, Arabic, & Aramaic is woefully inadequate. Nor can I read many languages that I'd like to read at all (such as Chinese or Japanese).

However, I have certainly studied the history of mysticism and religion. It's true that my knowledge of Eastern mystic practice/belief is less than my knowledge of mystic practice/tradition/beliefs found elsewhere. Part of that is because I can't read Pāli, Chinese, Japanes, and other languages necessary to read buddhist "scriptures", Confucius' writings (insofar as we have them), Bodhidharma's teachings, and so on. This does not mean I have not studied Eastern thought/spiritualism at all, and I have read many translations of extracts (e.g,. Penquin Classics collection Buddhist Scriptures, or the Upanishads collection I mentioned earlier in this thread).

But much of mystic tradition, practice, and/or belief was never written down. And much of what we know survives only because anthropologists, folklorists, ethnologists, and even linguists went out to observe practices, record what they were told about mystics (both by others in the community and mystics themselves) and mysticism. What is known about Shamanism (from Siberia) doesn't come from writings by Shamans. It started first with those like Richard Johnson who (in 1557) recorded a ritual or practice by the Nenets. Such accounts are clearly biased, as the word "priest" is used to describe an individual playing "upoon a thing like a great sieve". But they contain important information:

"Then he singeth as we in England to halloo, whoop, or shout at hounds..."Igha,Igha, Igha"...and they answer him with the selfsame words so many times, that in the end he becometh as it were mad, falling down as he were dead...I asked him why he lay so, and they answered me, 'Now doth our god tell him what we shall do, and wither we shall god.'"

The account continues in great detail, including details like "he took a sword of a cubit and a span long (I did measure it myself) and put it into his belly halfway and sometimes less, but no woulnd was to be seen" or "And I went to him that served the priest, and asked him what their god said to him when he lay as dead. He answered, that his own people doth not know; neither is it for them to know; for the must do as he commanded."

As time went on, more and more cultures, practices, communities, and "shamans" (i.e., in the broader sense of the term) were observed and with less ethnocentric bias. From the finnish and germanic folktales to the languages and beliefs of the indigenous peoples of North America, Africa, Australia, what we have is because others provided us with records. In particular, it is because social & behavioral sciences did so.





I am a Christian Contemplative - some of my highest insights into "reality" (for lack of a better term) have come through writings authored hundreds of years ago. The west is only now rediscovering things like the gnostic texts and hidden gospels.
They were never hidden, and in fact the one of the most important things they did was lay to rest certain doubts we had from our previous evidence: lengthy descriptions and quotes such as those in Adversus Haereses. It was believed that the descriptions were too bizarre and were reflecting biases of the authors. Then we found the actual texts to compare these quotes and descriptions to, and realized that despite the biased commentary the descriptions and quotes mostly accurate.

Another important problem is that gnostic texts weren't gnostic texts, as this term is a modern, western. It was coined based on the Greek title of Irenaeus' as a catch-all term for heresies. In the 19th century, Huxley coined another term "agnostic". He described his belief as one which lacked the knowledge of God that the gnostics had, and thus he was a-gnostic (without gnostic knowledge, not without gnosis)

What we know now, and had realized even before the Nag Hammadi collection, was that this nomenclature was inadequate. It described views that differed in radical ways as belonging to the same spirtual, ideological, and or religious beliefs. It remains in use (despite Rethinking Gnosticism and similar works) mainly because as we recognize it only to be an umbrella term, and can talk about actual individual "groups" using better names ("Sethian", "Valentinian", etc.).


And that says nothing about the Eastern traditions, or the Native American traditions, or the mystic traditions found in every known culture still alive and well.
True. The first two I've commented on above. Ronald Hutton's history of Wicca remains the best source to understanding the development of Gardnerian wiccan and some other Wiccan traditions (e.g., Alexandrian). Ironically, because of his pagan upbringing and the desire of Wiccans themselves to know more about the past, he ended up increasing our knowledge of Wiccan practices more than anthropologist Tanya Luhrmann, whose publication describing her involvement in private ceremonies caused more than a little hostility. Hutton is also responsible for the best book on the history of modern druids (he actually wrote two versions, one for the general public and the better but much more dense version), as we know next to nothing about actual druids.

Murray (whose works Gardner based much of his origin story on) actually helped in that the it inspired others to go back over the records from the middle ages to the 20th century and create a much more thorough knowledge of the practice os "wise ones", "cunning folk", etc. And of course Gardner is connected to yet another branch of mysticism: ceremonial magic and the occult. Crowley, Blavatsky, and even one of the founders of the boy scouts are all connected to various groups, orders, practices, and individuals which are at least related to mysticism, if one doesn't wish to associate this or that tradition with mysticism or individual as a mystic.

And we can add Sufism, "European" mystics both before and after the various "gnostic" groups/individuals, African traditions, etc.

All of these traditions share commonalities - and for you to state - categorically - as if you have any knowledge at all on the subject that... "these have not in general lasted"... is so far off base its laughable.

The category "gnostic" is so problematic because of the dissimilarities between groups traditionally called gnostic. Yet you think it is my lack of studying that leads me to conclude you are incorrect? How many followers of Apollonius of Tyana have you come across? What about Sabians of Harran? What do you know about the disconnect between modern druid revivals and the actual evidence for druid practice? What about Jean-Antione Boullan? The mystic Suso from Cologne? Khoja Akhmet Yassawi? Or what roles a vǫlva played vs. a Seiðr?



That's the whole point, down through the ages, from all mystic traditions, the masters teach that pain and suffering are human conditions caused by our own illusions
I would suggest you start reading more of the actual texts and literature about mystic traditions "down through the ages". When an Inuit village goes after their "shaman" for killing 8 people, or Hayden discusses living among the Highland Maya and being told of "bad shamans" who were killed, then either we need to really define mysticism much better, or your descriptions simply isn't correct.
 
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Open_Minded

Nothing is Separate
To some extent I agree. We can actually look at how one science, psychiatry, which was and is about helping people suffering from mental/emotional issues has caused more harm than good. If I start in on the problems psychiatry has caused not just to those with mental health problems but with everything from the criminal justic system to public policies, I'd go off on a rant which would be long even for me.......

yada.... yada... yada....

....then either we need to really define mysticism much better, or your descriptions simply isn't correct.

Your literalism is exhausting:

Your missing the larger point... mystics don't literalize their rituals .. you can study all the rituals, all the history ... etc... all you like and it will get you no where.

Masters of mysticism in all cultures and through-out history caution their students about becoming attached to symbols. The discovery comes from the internal journey, that is the timeless lesson of mysticism. You can have your degrees - worship them if you want. But your actions here ... reveal someone who for all his studies and degrees and time in a classroom, has not studied the most important thing. He has not studied the internal space within himself, if he had he would let go of his ego and quit hiding behind his outward knowledge, he'd be willing to explore the "silence" within himself and all that is. :(

I go back to what I said earlier ....

If these scientific seekers of the truth really held empiricism in such high regard, they would do the most basic thing possible. They would take the inner journey themselves. There is nothing stopping them, but their own biases - because in their minds ... " Meditation is nothing but hokum." (sigh)
:shrug:

____________________________________

One last note, you are a literalist - so please be aware - when I say "masters of mysticism" I am talking about the likes of Buddah and Jesus. So please don't pull out all the examples of extremism. There are extremists in all traditions, including the tradition of Science.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Your literalism is exhausting:

Your missing the larger point... mystics don't literalize their rituals .. you can study all the rituals, all the history ... etc... all you like and it will get you no where.
if you really took mysticism seriously you'd study enough of its history to know that even after 1000s of years it continues to serve many.
some of my highest insights into "reality" (for lack of a better term) have come through writings authored hundreds of years ago. The west is only now rediscovering things like the gnostic texts and hidden gospels.


I'm sorry my "literalism" (whatever that means) exhausts you. However, you brought up history. You said I should study it. I have. I would guess I've studied it much more than you have.

I'm not disputing that there is a wide divide between practice/belief and study. I'm not disputing whatever you have gained from personal understandings/interpretations of texts. But when you are making sweeping claims such as this:
Masters of mysticism in all cultures and through-out history caution their students about becoming attached to symbols.
then you are making a historical claim. So either you did some research to support this claim, or you have none, or you know what happened through-out history and all cultures without knowing about them.

If the first is the case, then you haven't done enough historical research. If the second, then don't make historical claims. If the third, well that's kind of the question here. Which is better for knowing the practices of mystics in a given time and culture: not even knowing they existed because you've never even heard of them, or studying what they believed and practiced?


The discovery comes from the internal journey, that is the timeless lesson of mysticism.
And as you have no idea what my internal journey has been, and basically nothing about me other than what you have gleaned from a few posts, then this assessment :

But your actions here ... reveal someone who for all his studies and degrees and time in a classroom, has not studied the most important thing.
is you making judgments from reading texts. You're basically taking your "study" of what I've written and coming to conclusions, which is something you state is ultimately worthless, as no amount of study can tell you about the internal journey.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think that's what science used to believe was true, but is more and more realizing that it gets in there too despite the checks and balances. Isn't this true?

It is true, except that the "used to" is more like a century ago, and the "more and more" should be located at the latest 50 years ago.

Just because a student may differ widely with another student in how they interpret the data, does not mean that science is unreliable, does it?

It can make research unreliable, methods unreliable, theories unreliable, etc. It can even make an entire field unreliable, and has. So while I agree with you that different interpretations between scientists does not mean science is unreliable, that's partly because "science" is a misleading term, or is so at least in common parlance.

The important difference, however, is that it can be shown when one interpretation or conclusion isn't correct. It might not be shown for a long time, even decades. But because the sciences are founded on cognitive and perceptual faculties common to most humans (their are those who can't see, or who can't here, etc.), scientific research is structured so that it diminishes as much as possible private or personal experience.

Altered states of consciousness, visions, connections to forces or powers that are gained through individual, personal methods/practices, and other things typically associated with mysticism or mystics are the opposite. Over the centuries, various mystic traditions have not only kept their practices secret, but to the extent we know of such practices through various means, they are primarily personalized.

In a very basic way, the sciences rely on what every human being is required to rely on in order to survive: sensory data and interpretation. If I am driving a car, and I see a wall, I can wonder about the illusory nature of reality (even from a scientific perspective, in that most of the wall "empty space"), or I can try to avoid hitting it.

There is a reason that 2D pictures frequently appear to be 3D. I can show someone from another culture speaking another language a picture of mountains taken from some distance, and they will be able to see as I do that the mountains appear far away. Illusions play on those commonalities to the human visual system.

So while interpretations of data may differ, and while biases influence research, the reason that the sciences continue to advance in ways never before possible is because they use what we all do every day, but in a framework or structure which depersonalizes that every day experience.


And then outside of science you have the public viewing the scientists as telling them facts of the "real world", and create a system of philosophical and religious beliefs surrounding how they hear what the scientist say, inserting their own personalities, hopes, desires, etc., into a belief system about this "reliable source of authority".

Yes. And although the media plays a big role here, so too do scientists. I have found there is quite a disconnect between how people view the way academia in general (not just the sciences) "works", as most of the time access to actual research, let alone scientific practice, is restricted (you have to buy it). The only most people have to technical literature, whether it is about history or astrophysics, is through sources designed more to sell than to be accurate.



This is no different than the mystical discipline. How does someone test the mystical apprehension? Do the experiment. Learn how to do the research, and do it.
That is different. Because even though experiments are replicated, that is not needed to test the conclusions. If the experiment suffers from implicit assumptions which are faulty, or there is a logical flaw in the experimental design, or any number of other possible flaws, another scientist doesn't have to repeat the experiment. Additionally, they can test the same hypotheses using other experiments. If, for example, an experiment demonstrates that SSRI anti-depressants help people feel better because serotonin causes depresssion, I can first see that at best a correlation, not a causal direction, has been shown, and I can next see if a drug which works on serotonergic pathways makes people who aren't depressed feel better. It does.

Mystic disciplines of the type you speak of are more akin to traditional martial arts (and, indeed, the paths overlap in some cases). To acquire certain abilities, training is needed, instruction is needed, practice is needed, etc. To some extent, of course, that's true of the sciences. The difference is that in the sciences, the training and practice are not to develop the discipline itself, but to be able to contribute to it. That is, I might spend years practicing meditation under a master, and may finally achieve a level of expertise I sought. The practice, training, etc., are the initial stages to mastering is being practiced.

That's not that same as in the sciences. For example, I may learn basic mathematics before college, and then study statistics, calculus/analysis, linear algebra, and so on. But I may never use much of what I learned, and what I use it for to be able to do something completely different. I may spend years taking courses about how the brain works, or how language works, or other things related to cognition, but that is seperate from the research. It is a tool needed before I can do research, just like math is.

And just like the empirical sciences, those who are Masters caution students in their zeal to make sweeping pronouncements about the data in applied areas. "I've seen God. Science is therefore crap!" No, of course not.

Actually, the empirical sciences could do a lot better and take a lesson from Masters in not making sweeping claims.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Actually, the empirical sciences could do a lot better and take a lesson from Masters in not making sweeping claims.
Funny, when I made comments about speaking in Absolute terms, several pages back, I practically got my knackers shot off. I wonder if you will be treated differently. :) For the record, I agree with you. Some scientists could learn well from many mystics about the dangers of making sweeping comments.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Can mystics be good physicists? Absolutely. Can they do so by drawing on ideas from mystical traditions/beliefs practices? Yes. Can they do so using or trying to show the validity of mystic beliefs/practices/etc.? Not so much. Which is why when they do, they have to rely on "scientific" outlets that they control for such research.

I do not have disagreement with the above. Very few, on the mystical side, will claim that mystical experiences are objectively testable. In this regard, I will repeat a couple of oft repeated sayings from the upanishads: "Who will know the knower?" and "The mind and the word return therefrom." So, what mystics touch is that substratum wherein the mind and word sprout from. In absence of mind and word what will science do?

Contrast that with naive view of many in brain research or AI who seem to religiously believe that correlation between brain states and emotions/actions indicate that the brain that we observe is actually the observer of us. Let scientists who are arrogant first explain the modifications of awareness in three states of phenomenal existence, namely sleep, dream, and waking.

Best
 

Open_Minded

Nothing is Separate
is you making judgments from reading texts. You're basically taking your "study" of what I've written and coming to conclusions, which is something you state is ultimately worthless, as no amount of study can tell you about the internal journey.

I'm basically taking my "study" of your actions - your inability to let go of the literal words on a paper.

If you understood "silence" in the sense that the rest of us use the word, or "interior space", or the "spaces in between" the way the rest of us use those types of phrases, you wouldn't be feeling so much frustration with those of us who self-identify as mystics.

You're trying to go at mysticism the way one goes at a science experiment. Well if that's your approach (and if it is that's fine) quit talking to us and do the experiment. :shrug:

As I've said before .....

If these scientific seekers of the truth really held empiricism in such high regard, they would do the most basic thing possible. They would take the inner journey themselves. There is nothing stopping them, but their own biases - because in their minds ... " Meditation is nothing but hokum." (sigh)
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Funny, when I made comments about speaking in Absolute terms, several pages back, I practically got my knackers shot off. I wonder if you will be treated differently. :) For the record, I agree with you. Some scientists could learn well from many mystics about the dangers of making sweeping comments.
Oh now, take your medicine in grace. :) I'm looking forward to responding to Legion's well-considered points and find nothing absolutist about them.
 

Open_Minded

Nothing is Separate
What does even this mean?
Outhouse ... what percentage of "reality" or "human existence" is "silence" or "emptiness" or "space"????

Go explore that ... go discover that .....

(Please understand that I use quotation marks around words because I don't want you to read those words as literal)
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Part of that is because I can't read Pāli, Chinese, Japanes, and other languages necessary to read buddhist "scriptures", Confucius' writings (insofar as we have them), Bodhidharma's teachings, and so on.
When you get around to it, if you do, include Dogen's Shobogenzo on your list. Good stuff.
 

Open_Minded

Nothing is Separate
Chopra and Mlodinow later not only became friends, they collaborated on a book together.

godnotgod - thanks for the book referral. I just found it on Amazon:

War of the Worldviews: Where Science and Spirituality Meet -- and Do Not

By Deepak Chopra and Leonard Mlodinow

Book Description
Two bestselling authors first met in a televised Caltech debate on “the future of God,” one an articulate advocate for spirituality, the other a prominent physicist. This remarkable book is the product of that serendipitous encounter and the contentious—but respectful—clash of worldviews that grew along with their friendship.

In War of the Worldviews these two great thinkers battle over the cosmos, evolution and life, the human brain, and God, probing the fundamental questions that define the human experience.

How did the universe emerge?
What is the nature of time?
What is life?
Did Darwin go wrong?
What makes us human?
What is the connection between mind and brain?
Is God an illusion?

This extraordinary book will fascinate millions of readers of science and spirituality alike, as well as anyone who has ever asked themselves, What does it mean that I am alive?
It looks like a fantastic read and I've already ordered it from my local bookstore.

As a side note, you should know that I've steered clear of Deepak for some years now. Years ago, when I first read his works they had much to offer. But then he seemed to go a bit too far, for me, and took liberty with science that I was uncomfortable with. As I've said earlier - as fascinated as I am with Quantum Mechanics I would never use it to prove my position.

But this book looks very interesting in that Deepak and [FONT=&quot]Mlodinow were both open-minded enough to develop a relationship and do the work of having an honest discourse and debate. When one is really "after the truth" of the matter, than one has to be willing to take his "[/FONT]Opponents" seriously - not treat them with a dismissive attitude.

It is that dynamic between these two individuals that stirred interest for me. It is the reason I am looking forward to the read.

Thank you for referring the book.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
godnotgod - thanks for the book referral. I just found it on Amazon:

War of the Worldviews: Where Science and Spirituality Meet -- and Do Not

By Deepak Chopra and Leonard Mlodinow

Book Description
It looks like a fantastic read and I've already ordered it from my local bookstore.

As a side note, you should know that I've steered clear of Deepak for some years now. Years ago, when I first read his works they had much to offer. But then he seemed to go a bit too far, for me, and took liberty with science that I was uncomfortable with. As I've said earlier - as fascinated as I am with Quantum Mechanics I would never use it to prove my position.

But this book looks very interesting in that Deepak and [FONT=&quot]Mlodinow were both open-minded enough to develop a relationship and do the work of having an honest discourse and debate. When one is really "after the truth" of the matter, than one has to be willing to take his "[/FONT]Opponents" seriously - treat them with a dismissive attitude.

It is that dynamic between these two individuals that stirred interest for me. It is the reason I am looking forward to the read.

Thank you for referring the book.

Well, I only mentioned that there was a book, but did'nt think anyone would be interested. Glad you decided to look into it, and as long as you did, here is some more info I think you will find of interest:

Chopra and Michael Shermer have been at each other for some time, publicly, on debate panels. (Look them up on YouTube). Shermer is a sceptic, president of Sceptics Society of America and publisher of Sceptic magazine. But as Chopra has gotten together with Mlodinow, he has also now done the same with Shermer. I now wonder if Chopra is on a mission to invite his worst critics in for one on one dialogue. Here are a couple links of his new encounters with Shermer. I find it rather heart-warming, and encourage others here to take a look, as it covers some of what we are discussing:


[youtube]pbY8I7AO2AI[/youtube]
Michael Shermer and Deepak Chopra | WHO ARE YOU? Part 1 - YouTube
[youtube]aIFSO4aP9mY[/youtube]

[youtube]NRqxnI96aIE[/youtube]
Michael Shermer fires back at Deepak Chopra | WHO ARE YOU? Part 3 - YouTube

..and here is a sampling of their conflicts prior to the above vids:

[youtube]AcDMd1J8gdU[/youtube]
Deepak Vs Shermer The Rematch - YouTube

In watching it, I just realized that Mlodinow is on the panel as well! He is on Shermer's left.

Chopra also had an one on one encounter with Richard Dawkins, but it was not too friendly. You can look it up on YouTube if you want. 'Chopra vs. Dawkins'.

If you have the time and patience, this earlier vid by Chopra is a gem

[youtube]IyMfuTzSDLw[/youtube]
Deepak Chopra - Way of the Wizard - YouTube

Enjoy!

re: QM & consciousness: I don't think you should use it to prove anything either, but I also don't think Chopra is doing that at all; he's just incorporating it into the mystical view of the One Reality.

I like what Chopra said [here paraphrased] about science in another video in which both he and Mlodinow were interviewed:

"In science, there is theory, experimentation, and observation, but theory is conceived in consciousness, experimentation is designed in consciousness, and observation is made in consciousness. Therefore, science is incomplete because it has not solved the problem of consciousness itself."
 
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