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Is Science Compatible with Mysticism?

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Most of this I will have to address later, as it is filled with a great deal of information that I can't easily unpack (like trying to read a paper in a language one doesn't know well). But some of it is not only in a language I know, but one I speak.

To really talk about what he means by subtle reductionism in this context would take some explanation.

It would. But this is not the first time I have come across integral methodological pluralism, Wilber, his quadrants, or integral theory. Nor am I unfamiliar with both those who have worked with AQAL as an epistemological tool and some who have criticized it. Habermas, Husserl, Kuhn, Quine, Feyerabend, Foucault, Beck, Ellis, and others upon which his work is based (namely, philosophers and historians of science, sociologists, particular psychologists, philosphers of langauge and semiotics, and especially the post-moderist deconstructionalist critiques) I know of and have read such that I can see where Wilber fits in. As a writer who is knowledgable and captivating, Wilber is pretty high up there. But, as is ever a problem, be it larger or smaller, when one tries to mix epistemological critiques with both alternative ways of knowing and empiricism, Queen Gertrude's injunction "more matter with less art" would be my reply to much of his work that addresses what I am familiar with.

Trying to uproot all epistemological methods and replace them with one that integrates (in the calculus sense) all possible ways without inherent contradictions or various other problems is bound to cause problems, at least insofar as Wilber uses AQAL for an epistemology that others can use. It isn't that they cannot, of course. It's just that when you build a structure for understanding which combines both the critiques of previous approaches and those approaches, you end up with something that would probably be more of value if you didn't attempt to form a systematic or organized epistemic approach. As one inside the fold put it :

"The irony here is that while Wilber attacks the post-modern, from a Latourian actor-network
theory (ANT) perspective, Wilber’s TOE is part of the post-modern phenomenon which Latour
critiques as leading to social theories ‘so cheap that we now have to increase the cost and the quality’.
Integral ends up being yet another grand discourse through which a world is framed, and every time
someone apologetically adds ‘it’s just a model’, it becomes ever more part of the post-modern
phenomenon of proliferating social theories.
The Wilberian discourse, which purports to see the world in its totality, unashamedly defines the world
on its own terms, through its specific language and conceptual frameworks (primarily through the
notion of ‘all quadrant all levels’— AQAL). The chief problem here is that in Wilber’s (and
Slaughter’s) terms, Integral does not seem to be a discourse, but rather amazingly ‘a-perspectival’,
meaning that it somehow sits above discourses and the flux of the perspectival world."
Movements toward holism in futures inquiry

But that's hardly here nor there. Whatever problems there might be with Wilber's approach are irrelevant, as you don't depend on them (from what I gather, you use what you find useful there). So I require more time to consider the important response which answered my question. And thank you for taking the time to do so.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
BTW, do you intend to read Yoga Vasitha that I linked?

They say the road to hell is paved with a certain kind of intentions, but I do intend to. I already started. However, as I said in my last post to another, so much is like reading something in a language one is barely fluent in. But I do intend.

Why we love? Why we study? Why we seek power and money? Why we do anything at all?
I saw a man pursuing the horizon;
Round and round they sped.
I was disturbed at this;
I accosted the man.
"It is futile," I said,
"You can never-"
"You lie," he cried,
And ran on.

- Stephen Crane
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Willamena,

Let me just clarify what I mean here: consider this feeling of Oneness that people achieve when they meditate. It seems to be pretty universal--lots of people get the same feeling. This might be a worthwhile practice, in fact it might expand your mind, give you peace, make you healthy, help you "think outside the box" etc. But the fact is that lots of people get the same feeling when they take LSD--they feel like they can fly. Does this tell us something about the entire universe, or does it tell us something about the human brain? Lots of photographs show similar artifacts--again does this have cosmic significance, or is it something interesting and peculiar about cameras? (These are rhetorical questions, please bear with me until the end.)

Suppose just hypothetically that all is not "One", whatever that means. Suppose that actually, we discover that the Milky Way galaxy is just completely, 100% different and separate from Andromeda. In fact Andromeda isn't even energy, it's something totally different. If the idea that "all is One" is meaningful, we must be able to entertain, at least, this hypothetical situation where "all is NOT One".

Now, I am not actually suggesting that there is no truth to this "all is One" mystical claim. It's at least partly true, if not 100% true. But if you'll humor me for a moment: in the hypothetical universe described above, is there any reason to believe that people who meditate would notice the difference? Would people who meditate deeply come out of it and say, "My gosh, everything in our ordinary waking state is an illusion! But now I have seen Reality as it truly is: all is Two! Not One, or Five. Two!" Let me suggest, as a hypothesis, that the mystical experience of Oneness would continue exactly as it does, whether all was truly One or Two or any other number. Let us suppose that this mystical experience of Oneness has nothing to do with Reality per se, it has to do with how the human brain interprets its experiences when you alter it (in this case through meditation which perhaps turns off/on various parts of the brain). If you mess with parts of the brain responsible for spatial orientation by taking LSD, perhaps it gives you a flying experience. If you change other parts of the brain, perhaps through meditation, it gives you this mystical experience of Oneness, a feeling that you are not separate from the rest of the universe, and it gives you a feeling of profundity and cosmic/religious significance. The experience would be just as persuasive and convincing to those who practice meditation, even if a huge corner of the universe was totally separate and different from our corner, and all was "NOT One", in any reasonable sense. And, someone like godnotgod would then (ironically) persist in the illusion that all the universe is One when in fact he has no way of knowing this. Confidence would persist even without evidence or truth to back it up. This hypothesis explains why everyone who meditates has similar experiences, but it does not require us to assume that those experiences necessarily represent "Reality".

Whether you agree or disagree with my hypothesis, the question is, how do you rule it out? (Can you?)

This is one of the most kock-eyed, naive, 'square peg in a round hole' concoctions I have ever heard.

You have a completely distorted view of the authentic mystical experience, as you persist in concocting wierd ideas about what it must be like from the outside, while adding some stereotypes as well as comparing it to the drug experience. You try to discredit it by subtley downgrading it to a mere 'feeling', as if one is glassy-eyed and groping around in a sort of fog. Of course, that then implies that Holy Science is the cure. The Christians do the same thing to Buddhism when they water it down to make it seem like nothing more than 'self-improvement'; sort of like going to a salon to have your nails done.

I won't spend a long time with your lsd comparison, but in a nutshell, if you go to authentic sources, you will find it cannot compare to real spiritual work.
Here is a sample comment from an authentic spiritual website:



"I've sampled a range of drugs myself - marijuana, cocaine, ecstasy, amphetamine, magic mushrooms, and yes LSD.... is just chasing experiences, chasing excitement and thrills, a stimulating but ultimately pointless sensual buzz. This is the complete opposite of the spiritual path, and will likely lead you away from enlightenment, not towards it. ...chronic drug use can mess around big time with important neurotransmitters in your brain such as dopamine and serotonin. Believe me, you really don't want to do that - with long-term, heavy use ...you're opening yourself up to the risk of mental illness - things like severe anxiety, depression, and psychotic episodes. Totally not worth the risk just for a temporary buzz followed by a sh-i-tty comedown"

educate yourself here:

Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?

Now use your head: your notion of a uni-verse that is 'Two' (or more) is totally ridiculous. The universe cannot be 'not-One', 'uni'-verse meaning 'All', and that is Absolute. There is no 'other'. The notion that the Milky Way and Andromeda are separate cannot be the case. Space connects them together, as it connects all galaxies together, and no, you cannot have solid without space. No matter what concept you can come up with to suggest separate universes, the reality is that, when taken altogether, they remain One. Only your Reason can concoct the notions of separate worlds because it is faulty to begin with. Unfortunately, these notions are only mental suds, and have no relationship to Reality. Reason causes you, from the get-go, and without your being aware of it, to see the One Reality through the distorting glass of Time, Space, and Causation as separate 'things', made of minuscule particles, and divided into atoms.

In Taoism, it is said that, for the sage, nothing is what is of ultimate importance. I know you don't understand this, but that's OK. You know those color matching computer programs used in paint stores to mix your paint? The scanner uses a colorless chip to compare your paint sample to. That is how the computer 'knows' what to mix. The ideal state in meditation is to achieve a state of non-attachment and emptiness. In that way, consciousness is aware of the nature of everything, and that nature is Oneness. I know this is not really an explanation, but it really can't be explained in the ordinary sense. You have to go see for yourself. But it's not just some warm fuzzy feeling, as you have implied, but an insight into the nature of Reality that penetrates the facade of ordinary 'reality' that is only appearances.

Pure conscious awareness is like a placid pond. Thought is like a pebble cast upon its surface that creates disturbance. But since the pond is not attached to the action of the pebble, it eventually returns, of its own accord, to its original state of placidity. When consciousness attaches to thought via mind, there is disturbance. so that awareness of the original state is temporarily obscured. Delusion, the disturbance that clouds original pure consciousness, is always a feature of thought. Where there is no thought there can be no delusion.


'Knowledge is Light, ignorance is nescience. Where there is Light, there is no nescience.'

'Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists,
Nor the stand of a mirror bright.
Since all is empty from the beginning,
Where can the dust alight?'

Hui Neng, Sixth Zen Patriarch
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is one of the most kock-eyed, naive, 'square peg in a round hole' concoctions I have ever heard.

Which means a lot, coming from someone who uses historical scholarship, quantum physics, and the cognitive sciences to fit bits and pieces of these into a "round hole" without understanding any of it.

You have a completely distorted view of the authentic mystical experience
You've completely distorted just about every reference to scholarship I've ever seen you make. From ancient history to modern science. It doesn't seem to bother you.

No matter what concept you can come up with to suggest separate universes
...you won't understand it but that won't stop you from commenting on it as from a position of authority.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
This is one of the most kock-eyed, naive, 'square peg in a round hole' concoctions I have ever heard.

You have a completely distorted view of the authentic mystical experience, as you persist in concocting wierd ideas about what it must be like from the outside, while adding some stereotypes as well as comparing it to the drug experience. You try to discredit it by subtley downgrading it to a mere 'feeling', as if one is glassy-eyed and groping around in a sort of fog. Of course, that then implies that Holy Science is the cure. The Christians do the same thing to Buddhism when they water it down to make it seem like nothing more than 'self-improvement'; sort of like going to a salon to have your nails done.

I won't spend a long time with your lsd comparison, but in a nutshell, if you go to authentic sources, you will find it cannot compare to real spiritual work.
Here is a sample comment from an authentic spiritual website:



"I've sampled a range of drugs myself - marijuana, cocaine, ecstasy, amphetamine, magic mushrooms, and yes LSD.... is just chasing experiences, chasing excitement and thrills, a stimulating but ultimately pointless sensual buzz. This is the complete opposite of the spiritual path, and will likely lead you away from enlightenment, not towards it. ...chronic drug use can mess around big time with important neurotransmitters in your brain such as dopamine and serotonin. Believe me, you really don't want to do that - with long-term, heavy use ...you're opening yourself up to the risk of mental illness - things like severe anxiety, depression, and psychotic episodes. Totally not worth the risk just for a temporary buzz followed by a sh-i-tty comedown"

educate yourself here:

Specific meditations for acheiving LSD-like enlightenment?

Now use your head: your notion of a uni-verse that is 'Two' (or more) is totally ridiculous. The universe cannot be 'not-One', 'uni'-verse meaning 'All', and that is Absolute. There is no 'other'. The notion that the Milky Way and Andromeda are separate cannot be the case. Space connects them together, as it connects all galaxies together, and no, you cannot have solid without space. No matter what concept you can come up with to suggest separate universes, the reality is that, when taken altogether, they remain One. Only your Reason can concoct the notions of separate worlds because it is faulty to begin with. Unfortunately, these notions are only mental suds, and have no relationship to Reality. Reason causes you, from the get-go, and without your being aware of it, to see the One Reality through the distorting glass of Time, Space, and Causation as separate 'things', made of minuscule particles, and divided into atoms.

In Taoism, it is said that, for the sage, nothing is what is of ultimate importance. I know you don't understand this, but that's OK. You know those color matching computer programs used in paint stores to mix your paint? The scanner uses a colorless chip to compare your paint sample to. That is how the computer 'knows' what to mix. The ideal state in meditation is to achieve a state of non-attachment and emptiness. In that way, consciousness is aware of the nature of everything, and that nature is Oneness. I know this is not really an explanation, but it really can't be explained in the ordinary sense. You have to go see for yourself. But it's not just some warm fuzzy feeling, as you have implied, but an insight into the nature of Reality that penetrates the facade of ordinary 'reality' that is only appearances.

You have a knack for missing the point.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That


Which means a lot, coming from someone who uses historical scholarship, quantum physics, and the cognitive sciences to fit bits and pieces of these into a "round hole" without understanding any of it.


You've completely distorted just about every reference to scholarship I've ever seen you make. From ancient history to modern science. It doesn't seem to bother you.


...you won't understand it but that won't stop you from commenting on it as from a position of authority.

That's all your take on it, which is OK, but makes it just about impossible for me to have a discussion with you, because I see you as being bogged down in tons of 'knowledge' that for me is just excess baggage and in the way. Maybe I'm wrong, but I see your general view as being one that requires complexity and 'explanation' at every step in order to have validity. I see the situation as being exactly opposite, with simplicity being the key. I see that simplicity, that cutting to the heart of the matter, in both Chopra and Goswami. They both SEE what is so by penetrating the facade. Factual knowledge, for me, is not understanding, but for all the factual knowledge you possess, you don't seem to see beyond the masses of material. You want the factual knowledge to arrive at some explanation for things being the way they are, which it simply cannot do. I think they call that 'making the tail wag the dog.':shrug:

I also get the impression that you think that your vast accumulation of factual knowledge somehow makes you an 'authority', where I am not. I claim neither authority, nor not-authority. I don't see the universe as presenting a 'problem' that needs figuring out. It can't be figured out by reason, logic, and analysis. Now if you want to talk to me about how science is the key to all those wonderful technologies we have come to enjoy, fine. Just don't try to paint the picture that science and knowledge are going to arrive at some 'understanding' of Reality via their pursuit. I refer you to your own piece of the man chasing the horizon. IOW: 'BS' (short for 'BalderdaSh)
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
(Why we love? Why we study? Why we seek power and money? Why we do anything at all?

We seek happiness for self. No one seeks agony. So, it is better to right away seek happiness directly).

I know Apo is waiting to pounce on me, yet I must bemoan the fact that I am never paid adequately for my labour at RF.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member

atanu

Member
Premium Member
....., because I see you as being bogged down in tons of 'knowledge' that for me is just excess baggage and in the way. Maybe I'm wrong, but I see your general view as being one that requires complexity and 'explanation' at every step in order to have validity. ......

:) Scientits would lose their jobs or they would have to become farmers if they remained simple.

(Shucks. See the spelling above).

It is again in the nature of singularity that functions of Creator, Maintainer and Destroyer co-exist. Without the Creator, the Maintainer will have no job. And without the Creator and the Maintainer, the Destroyer will sit idle. And there will not be any drama to watch for.

Scientists are mostly herds of Vishnu, the maintainer of mAyA.:drool:
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It would. But this is not the first time I have come across integral methodological pluralism, Wilber, his quadrants, or integral theory. Nor am I unfamiliar with both those who have worked with AQAL as an epistemological tool and some who have criticized it. Habermas, Husserl, Kuhn, Quine, Feyerabend, Foucault, Beck, Ellis, and others upon which his work is based (namely, philosophers and historians of science, sociologists, particular psychologists, philosphers of langauge and semiotics, and especially the post-moderist deconstructionalist critiques) I know of and have read such that I can see where Wilber fits in. As a writer who is knowledgable and captivating, Wilber is pretty high up there. But, as is ever a problem, be it larger or smaller, when one tries to mix epistemological critiques with both alternative ways of knowing and empiricism, Queen Gertrude's injunction "more matter with less art" would be my reply to much of his work that addresses what I am familiar with.
Certainly it can be criticized as such a reaching, ambitious goal to be a Theory of Everything it is going to falter. But I don't believe that what others take it as, to be the "answer", which is the critique I see below, is in fact what he is proposing. That issue I see coming from those who spend their academic careers trying to show why their theory is right and everyone else's is wrong. It projects intention into his models that don't exist. Those models are held with an open hand and are well recognized by him and others as replaceable. As he says well, and I believe he indeed holds them himself with this view, "maps of the terrain, but not the terrain itself".

I think much of the criticism comes from those who are trying to impose a fixed model on things and assume this should be that. And then of course you have those who follow Wilber and take them as that themselves! Wilberites, as the term goes. :) The models become blunt objects they beat others over the head with arguing them as the facts. It's the same sort of residual mentality that is behind science becoming Scientism.

In short, what modernity and postmodernity, like all those epics before them; mythological, magic, etc, each thinks how they think is the correct way of thinking and argue against one another. In post-postmodernity, or integral as Gebser called it, it strives not to be yet another POV in that age-old argument of screaming at each other how their predecessors are wrong and they are right, but rather a means to synthesis approaches within their appropriate domains. Modernity and postmodernity are not bitter enemies, but each valid, and in error as well. I personally think this entire "That can't be true, because this is true" mentality is some hangover from the authoritarian, top down view of Church Authority. "God's Word". It's the search for the Absolute, imposed into science and philosophy and religion.

And so when the mystic says he has experienced the Absolute, what is heard is "So, you're saying you have the Answers???" It's the set of eyes seeing that doesn't change the question. If it doesn't change the question, it can't hear what is meant by that statement. "Truth", with a capital T, is not a propositional truth.

So "art" in fact Legion, is indeed actually much more appropriate when moving up and beyond domains of seeking Answers in theories and models. If anything, let's have our discussion around that if we hope to progress beyond a "who's right" approach.

Trying to uproot all epistemological methods and replace them with one that integrates (in the calculus sense) all possible ways without inherent contradictions or various other problems is bound to cause problems, at least insofar as Wilber uses AQAL for an epistemology that others can use. It isn't that they cannot, of course. It's just that when you build a structure for understanding which combines both the critiques of previous approaches and those approaches, you end up with something that would probably be more of value if you didn't attempt to form a systematic or organized epistemic approach. As one inside the fold put it :

"The irony here is that while Wilber attacks the post-modern, from a Latourian actor-network
theory (ANT) perspective, Wilber’s TOE is part of the post-modern phenomenon which Latour
critiques as leading to social theories ‘so cheap that we now have to increase the cost and the quality’.
Integral ends up being yet another grand discourse through which a world is framed, and every time
someone apologetically adds ‘it’s just a model’, it becomes ever more part of the post-modern
phenomenon of proliferating social theories.
The Wilberian discourse, which purports to see the world in its totality, unashamedly defines the world
on its own terms, through its specific language and conceptual frameworks (primarily through the
notion of ‘all quadrant all levels’— AQAL). The chief problem here is that in Wilber’s (and
Slaughter’s) terms, Integral does not seem to be a discourse, but rather amazingly ‘a-perspectival’,
meaning that it somehow sits above discourses and the flux of the perspectival world."
Movements toward holism in futures inquiry
And all this goes to what I just laid out above. Something interesting, something telling I discovered at glancing over that paper in the link you provided.

"As with much spiritually-oriented discourse, Wilber positions himself through his model as an answerer of questions. This is the traditional guru-disciple relationship that is honoured in many traditions. The disciple asks the questions. The guru answers them.

Does the guru have questions that he might appropriately address to other gurus in a dynamic in which all are questioners and answerers? Why is the dialogue between gurus of very different persuasion so impoverished—given their undoubted wisdom?

What is the status of "question" or "answer" in relation to theories of Everything? Do questions and answers occur at certain boundaries? To what extent do they reflect a dualistic dynamic that needs to be transcended to hold any subtler modes of awareness? More intriguing still, why is a Theory of Everything framed as a noun, when it might be a verb or some other grammatical device?"​

This to me presents a deeply flawed understanding of Wilber. I addressed much of my critique of this thinking above.

But that's hardly here nor there. Whatever problems there might be with Wilber's approach are irrelevant, as you don't depend on them (from what I gather, you use what you find useful there). So I require more time to consider the important response which answered my question. And thank you for taking the time to do so.
I don't depend on them, nor any other "this is the truth" model.

Back to art here, my personal way to describe all of these models of his, or any other system of thought is that they are 2 dimensional tree-like structures that allow us to hang the ornaments of Spirit upon in order to see and marvel at them. They are not the "True Structure", as though they hold the Answer. They are structures that make sense for the environment, and the time in which they are modeled, to which they belong and are appropriate, but their true function is to offer something to hang the eternal upon in order to bring it into people's lives, and to experience what is beyond all of them altogether. It doesn't matter if that is a magic, mythic, modern, postmodern, etc view. They are ways to extend the reach of the mind into the world, and upon which the ornaments of spirit are hung, regardless of the age we live in.

People are too focused on the branches and shapes of these structures, not seeing they are not permanent, that they are not "reality". These arguments of who is right and who is wrong is arguing over non-reality. Pity we argue over barren branches.
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
It is again in the nature of singularity that functions of Creator, Maintainer and Destroyer co-exist. Without the Creator, the Maintainer will have no job. And without the Creator and the Maintainer, the Destroyer will sit idle. And there will not be any drama to watch for.

Scientists are mostly herds of Vishnu, the maintainer of mAyA.:drool:
I like that. Science plays a unique role in the Art of Analysis, and analysis is the perfection of maya.

In all things. :namaste
 

Open_Minded

Nothing is Separate
I see you as being bogged down in tons of 'knowledge' that for me is just excess baggage and in the way. Maybe I'm wrong, but I see your general view as being one that requires complexity and 'explanation' at every step in order to have validity. I see the situation as being exactly opposite, with simplicity being the key. .... Factual knowledge, for me, is not understanding, but for all the factual knowledge you possess, you don't seem to see beyond the masses of material. You want the factual knowledge to arrive at some explanation for things being the way they are, which it simply cannot do. I think they call that 'making the tail wag the dog.':shrug:

Excellent point godnotgod, for me though it's not the tailing wagging the dog, I'd say he's missing the forest for the trees. Running about cataloging every species of trees in the forsest does not give one "understanding of the forest". It gives one "facts about the forest". There is a difference. :shrug:

As I said earlier... "a lot of debate about nothing of consequence" :shrug:
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Excellent point godnotgod, for me though it's not the tailing wagging the dog, I'd say he's missing the forest for the trees. Running about cataloging every species of trees in the forsest does not give one "understanding of the forest". It gives one "facts about the forest". There is a difference. :shrug:

As I said earlier... "a lot of debate about nothing of consequence" :shrug:
Personally, it struck me as being more pathetic ranting than showing any signs of excellence - but perhaps that's just me. Don't get me wrong, I do like writers with a gift for simplifying very complex problems, but necessarily they will often have to throw out part of the baby with the bathwater in order to maintain that simplicity. To me, it is Legion, who is the one valiantly trying to simplify things in order to find a bridge between Science and Mysticism.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
Excellent point godnotgod, for me though it's not the tailing wagging the dog, I'd say he's missing the forest for the trees. Running about cataloging every species of trees in the forsest does not give one "understanding of the forest". It gives one "facts about the forest". There is a difference. :shrug:

Glad you see the difference. Most people are educated/indoctrinated to believe that the systematic accumulation of factual knowledge will lead them to real understanding, which is to place the cart ahead of the horse. This is what the Buddha tried to communicate to us in the parable of the man fatally shot with an arrow:


A Man with an Arrow-inflicted Wound

In the Madhyamagama Sutra, the Buddha used the parable of a man wounded by an arrow to explain why we should practice the Dharma now. In the story, a man was pierced by an arrow, and a doctor was immediately summoned to have the arrow pulled and the wound treated. However, the wounded man insisted to find out who shot the arrow before he would let the doctor treat him. Was it a man or a woman? Was the attacker young or old? Which direction did it come from? What was the arrowhead made of? How big was the bow that shot the arrow? What kind of feathers was used? The wounded man would definitely die of poisoning before his desire for knowing all the information was satisfied.

The Buddha told us that our minds are so seriously wounded that we are in need of immediate treatment.

Buddhas.net - Serenity, Happiness and Salvation

Isn't that what we generally call 'the human condition'?, and that, when this is resolved first, the rest will fall into place of its own accord.

That man must have been shot deep within the forest, LOL.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
Personally, it struck me as being more pathetic ranting than showing any signs of excellence - but perhaps that's just me. Don't get me wrong, I do like writers with a gift for simplifying very complex problems, but necessarily they will often have to throw out part of the baby with the bathwater in order to maintain that simplicity. To me, it is Legion, who is the one valiantly trying to simplify things in order to find a bridge between Science and Mysticism.

It won't happen. One needs to look beyond both to see the unity of Reality first. Then, science and (intellectual knowledge of) mysticism can be seen in terms of Reality, and not the other way around. It is the mystical approach that gets to the heart of Reality directly. Science can't get there because it is tied to its own methodology. Amit Goswami and Deepak Chopra, amongst others who are scientifically-oriented, have been able to both see beyond the intellect and to see that there is no problem re: science and mysticism. We ourselves have created the problem via our own machinations, the very first one being that we create the illusion in our mind of a universe as object apart from observer, manifested as multiplicity.

The problem is that we have one eye on the path and one eye on the goal, instead of both eyes on the path. IOW, it is the grasping mind that is in the way.
:)
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
:) Scientits would lose their jobs or they would have to become farmers if they remained simple.

At least/last their eyes would be open, LOL, a major feat.

“I read the news today oh boy
Four thousand holes in Blackburn, Lancashire
And though the holes were rather small
They had to count them all
Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall.”

The Beatles


It is again in the nature of singularity that functions of Creator, Maintainer and Destroyer co-exist. Without the Creator, the Maintainer will have no job. And without the Creator and the Maintainer, the Destroyer will sit idle. And there will not be any drama to watch for.

Scientists are mostly herds of Vishnu, the maintainer of mAyA.:drool:[/QUOTE]

Creator, Maintainer, Destroyer, and Observer are all concepts. In reality, nothing is ever created or destroyed. That creation and destruction occur is maya. It's just a dream.:)
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
To claim reality for not-maya is maya.

That's not what I said. However, maya and Reality are One, as maya is projected from Reality, making them seem as two.

The Nature of Maya

Maya is the cosmic aspect of the power that hides Reality's essence. It is... the highest manifestation of the Absolute. The cosmic force of mentation limits the Infinitude of Brahman and makes it appear as the Cosmic person...

Maya is not that. It is not Brahman and yet, it is the Power of Brahman. It is a deceptive and indescribable appearance which not only makes the individual forget the Unity of Brahman but in addition to it presents an unreal distractive phenomenon of diversity. Intellect which is rooted in egoism is the distracting factor in the individual and...the sheath of ignorance is the veiling factor. Maya is, therefore, a beginningless play of cosmic imaginative force which apparently divests the Eternal Nature of its Indivisibility and makes it put on a variety of forms in its own being and further gives way to the descension into strong attachment of such egoistic centres of consciousness to their particular forms and experiences. Maya is termed in many ways, appearance, power, force, phenomenon, and the like, which all go to point to its unreal character and its untrustworthy behaviour. Every thought, therefore, is an activity in the realm of Maya, for all thoughts spring from individual consciousness which is itself the effect of the diversifying nature of Maya. All individuals, right from the Supreme... down to the insignificant creature of the netherlands are within the boundaries of Maya, differing only in the degree or the extent to which each is influenced by it.

http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/moksha/moksh_03.html
 
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