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Is Science Compatible with Mysticism?

Open_Minded

Open_Minded

Nothing is Separate
Hello Mr. Spinkles:

Mr Spinkles said:
That's a very touching story. I am sorry for your loss, and I assure you that I have lost loved ones too (haven't we all?) I do agree we can never know what is happening "within" although in some cases we can get gather evidence which gives an indication. All I would emphasize here is that (1) if people in comas can hear what is going on around them, that does not require your hypothesis of a "transmitter" beyond the physical brain; (2) FWIW, if your hypothesis is wrong and mine is correct, and there is no transmitter beyond the brain, I don't think that would make human life any less precious or the ability of coma patients to hear loved ones any less remarkable. We would just have a transmitter or "soul" made out of squishy grey stuff instead of being made out of ethereal wonderstuff. Why should we embrace hope and optimism in one case, but not the other? That seems to me an arbitrary human prejudice. In either case, souls are weird, life is precious, and optimism is a good thing.

But FWIW your article talks about other scientists from other reputable universities, like Columbia, who dispute the "Love Study". And your article implies that the results of most good studies disagree with the one "Love Study". You don't write off those scientists or studies or universities either, right? From your article:

Maybe. That seems to be your favored hypothesis, and you offered an article in support of it, which I read. I favor a different hypothesis, and in support of it I offer you this video, which in the spirit of Open Mindedness I hope you will watch when you have time. ;)
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Mr. Spinkles - You make valid points. Overall I feel no need to debate the matter. At the end of the day it's not going to be settled in this thread. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy lists multiple Quantum Approaches to Consciousness.

I'll leave it for those a lot smarter than I am to figure out the details. My overall point might be better addressed through a different avenue. Earlier in this thread godNotgod pointed me to a book entitled: War of the Worldviews: Where Science and Spirituality Meet -- and Do Not

Two bestselling authors first met in a televised Caltech debate on “the future of God,” one an articulate advocate for spirituality, the other a prominent physicist. This remarkable book is the product of that serendipitous encounter and the contentious—but respectful—clash of worldviews that grew along with their friendship.

In War of the Worldviews these two great thinkers battle over the cosmos, evolution and life, the human brain, and God, probing the fundamental questions that define the human experience.
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I am in the process of reading this book right now. At this point (about 1/3 of the way through) I've found much interesting reading, but am a bit disappointed. There seems to be little effort by either author to find common ground. Maybe by the end of the book, this dynamic will change. But --- applicable to our current discussion ---- following are physicist's,Leonard Mlodinow's, closing comments for his essay on What is Life:

I spoke with my father while writing this book. For as long as I can remember I have feared for his health. When I spoke to him the other night he reassured me that he is alive and well, in the same way he has reassured me each time I've seen him over the last twenty years - in my dreams. My father died two decades ago but I'd obviously rather not accept it. I'd rather believe that he has rejoined the universe, or gone on living in some other form. Unfortunately, for me the desire is not strong enough to outweigh the skepticism.
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Leonard hit the core issue here in why there is a disconnect between skeptics and the rest of us. He got one thing wrong - I'll come back to that in a minute.

But - it is Leonard's life experiences which cause his skepticism to "outweigh his desire". We each come to our understanding of the reality/the universe, etc... through our life experiences.

If you've been following my conversation with Legion - then you'll have a handle on my life experiences. My life experiences (and I've had my skeptic periods, and doubts) have led me to the point where I am at. I just ended up on the other side of the same coin, that's all: :shrug:

Where I take issue with Leonard's analysis of the situation is that it is not "desire" that lands me here. As I mentioned in my responses to Legion, having premonitions is not always a pleasant experience. It is not pleasant at all to have someone answer your phone call with bad news. It is definitely not pleasant - in fact it is down right unsettling and depressing - to "feel" another person's pain event though they are miles away. So .. I personally take issue with Leonard's assumption that those of us who end up on the other side of the coin from him are doing it by "desire". I ended up feeling the way I feel BECAUSE my life experiences are every bit as valid as his, they just let me to a different place. For me, my life experiences have outweighed the skepticism I've felt. Part of my life experiences are other people noticing the same thing in me that I notice in myself. Contrary to the thinking of some skeptics my experiences are not 100% subjective.

And somehow - deep within myself - I do think there is a meeting place for us humans. I don't presume to have all the answers, it would be nice if folks like Leonard (and Deepak) would presume not to have all the answers as well. :shrug:

The world would be a lot better off if the "certain ones" amongst us (like Leonard and Deepak) would board Ymir's boat of "smug uncertainity".
History of that term follows

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Originally Posted by Willamena
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You've embraced smug uncertainty now. :D
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Hehe. I just might steal this line, with your permission, of course. I quite like it.
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Post
Welcome to the boat of smug uncertainty. Grab an oar. We'll get to the next destination faster if we work as a team - I think.:canoe:
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​
(Maybe by the end of the book they will both come to terms with their common humanity - but I'm not holding my breath. sigh)
 
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J

John Martin

Active Member
I would like to share with you a public dialogue I had with a scientist. I thought it might interest you.
The scientist made seven proposals and I answered from my Christian background.


SCIENCE AND SPIRITUALITY MEET
Responses of John Martin on seven key points of the theory of Double Causality proposed by Mr.Philip Guillemant, Physicist and the author of The Road of Time.

1. OUR DESTINY IS ALREADY REALIZED IN THE FORM OF A TEMPORAL LINE
The destiny of our creation and human existence is to realize that we are already one with the ground of our existence, which we call God, eternal self or unified field of energy. It is like a piece of ice floating in the infinite ocean realizing that it is ocean. It is manifesting eternity in time and space- in the temporal line. This truth has to be realized in the temporal line or horizontal movement of time and space. Our temporal line projects our destiny into the future whereas it is already here and now. In the Genesis story humanity is manifested to live the life of fullness but out of ignorance it (Adam and Eve) choses the path of becoming, the path of time and lives a fragmented life. (Unfortunately this process was necessary because humanity was in a state of unconsciousness fullness. The desire to become like God is the desire to become conscious of what is unconscious. It was not a bad desire or disobedience).The purpose of our temporal line is to reconnect itself to the eternity and manifest the life of fullness in time and space and in human relationships. It is the process of actualizing our inner potentialities.
Our intentions determine our future. We are creating our own future through our intentions. Our future is already here in our intentions. Each one is creating his own or her own world and having his own or her own travel plan and encountering people or places according to their intentions. This is called synchronicity. This also makes us responsible for what we intent. Our intentions should not be for our personal or collective ambitions and goals. They must be for the welfare of all, for the welfare of the whole of creation. Hindu sages prayed for the welfare all beings: Lokah samasta sukino bhavantu, may all beings in the world be happy. Buddha lived for the liberation of all sentient and non-sentient beings. Jesus prayed for the unity of all humankind: “May they all be one, just as, Father, you are in me and I am in you, so that they all may be in us so that they world may believe it was you who sent me” (Jn. 17.21). Jesus told his disciples: search for the kingdom of God and its righteousness and all things will be given unto you’. Searching for the kingdom of God is searching for our original and essential unity. It is the realization of one way, one truth and one life. It is living for the welfare of all. If we live for the welfare of all then Life will provide all our needs.
2. OUR TEMPORAL LINE IS NOT FIXED: IT CAN BE REPLACED BY ANOTHER LINE PARALLEL WITH THE PRESENT ( IN THE MULTIVER’S NET WORK).
We have different levels of consciousness within us: individual, collective and universal and finally unitary consciousness or divine consciousness. They are parallel to each other and the higher embraces the lower. The first two move in a temporal line of time and space. This movement oscillates between the individual consciousness and the collective consciousness. Our temporal movement is not fixed and it can be replaced by another line according to the level of consciousness it lives. The last two levels do not belong to the temporal line. They belong to the level of eternity. Since their nature is fullness they do not move in a horizontal line but manifest vertically. They are non-local and non-space. It is eternal fullness manifesting its fullness in time and space. The time and space are freed from the burden of becoming, from the burden of psychological past and psychological future. The present is not conditioned by the past or the future but becomes the vehicle of fullness or eternity.
3. ALL THAT WHICH IS NOT DETERMINED BY THE PAST IS DETERMINED BY THE FUTURE.
Our present life is determined by our individual past or collective past. Our collective past is very powerful. For example, religious belief systems which began somewhere in the past determine the way we live our life in the present. If we free ourselves from the past then we are determined by our individual or collective ambitions or goals which are our future. Hence our present is not free. It is very much determined either by the past or by the future. A person who moves into the universal consciousness transcends the past and the future and lives in the eternal present. This universal consciousness embraces the past, present and future but also transcends them.
4. THE FUNCTION OF PRESENT IS NOT TO CREATE REALITY ( IT IS ALREADY CREATED) BUT TO CHOOSE OUR COMMON FUTURE BY THE CUMILATIVE EFFECT OF ALL OUR CONSCIOUSNESS.
The function of our present consciousness is not to create anything new but to surrender to the consciousness that is beyond our temporal line. Jesus told Nicodemus,’ unless you are born again, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. The wind blows where it wills but you do not know from where it comes and you do not know to where it goes. This is the way a person who is born of the spirit lives’. To enter into the kingdom of God is to transcend our temporal line. The consciousness that transcends our temporal line can be described as unitary consciousness- or Unified field of Energy. Our common future and common destiny is to return to the source from which we have been manifested. We are all like prodigal sons or daughters returning to our divine Father or Mother. It is going back to our original unity,-non local and non-space consciousness.
5. ELECTION IS DIFFICULT BECAUSE OUR FREE WILL GENERALLY IS ILLUSORY: AUTHENTIC FREEDOM REQUIRES A MENTAL UN CONDITIONING AND SPIRITUAL AWAKENING.
When we are living in our individual consciousness or collective consciousness our will and intellect are very much conditioned either by individual desires or collective belief systems or goals. We do not have free will but conditioned free will. Free will is not something we begin with but it needs to be discovered. In our spiritual awakening we move away from the individual and collective conditioning and enter into the universal consciousness where we discover our inner fullness and freedom. We realize that we are free from the past and the future. It opens to infinite possibilities to manifest or actualize our fullness. It is freedom from becoming. It is freedom from the compulsions of time. In order to give birth to this universal consciousness our minds need to be unconditioned. In the Christian Tradition we have the archetypal symbol of Virgin Mary who gives birth to the Son of God- universal consciousness. A virgin is an unconditioned mind which facilitates spiritual awakening and gives birth to the Son of God, who lives in the universal consciousness where real freedom and free will are possible. (Where there is no freedom we cannot speak of free will). This truth is again realized in the person of Jesus Christ at his baptism in which he transcends conditioned individual will and collective will and enters into the universal consciousness where he can say ‘I am the way, the truth and the life’. This is the statement of authentic freedom born of UN-conditioning of the mind that opens to spiritual awakening. Jesus’ consciousness went one step further and he realized his oneness with the ultimate Source of our existence: ‘the Father and I are one’. Only in this unity we discover our ultimate freedom.
 
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J

John Martin

Active Member
These two points are continuation of the previous post.

6. EVERY CHANGE IN THE TEMPORAL LINE IS MADE BY GLIDING, SLIDING OR DISPLACEMENT ALONG THE SUPPLEMENTARY INTERIOR DIMENSIONS OF THE UNIVERSE6
Our spiritual evolution is made by gliding, sliding or displacement. In our spiritual growth we may move up and down. We may enter into crisis and displace one belief with another belief, one desire with another desire, one goal with another goal, one person and with another person. We may also move from individual consciousness to collective consciousness and from the collective to the individual. We may also move from the individual to the universal without moving into the collective.
For example today European society has very much moved away from the collective consciousness to the individual consciousness. It felt that the collective consciousness (based on religious beliefs) was very oppressive. God is seen as an oppressor who takes away human freedom. Religions are seen as the source of conflict and violence. European society is based on individualism and importance is given to individual freedom and fulfillment. The chances are that this extreme individualism of the European consciousness may open the door to the universal consciousness (not falling back into the collective consciousness) and then to the unitary consciousness of the divine. The individualism of the Europe, which is de-conditioned from the past, is like a virgin mind. It will open to the voice of Truth and listen to the voice of arch-angel Gabriel. It will give birth to the universal consciousness, the Son of God from Above (not from the past). It will become a Virgin Mother. It will celebrate real Christmas again.
The universal consciousness is the new covenant that the God of the Biblical tradition promised. In this New Covenant human beings discover the inner truth written in their hearts and live from that truth. They will have the freedom to say like Jesus ‘I am the way, the truth and the life'. It is my intuition that the European consciousness is moving to this direction of this new covenant and there will be an extraordinary spiritual awakening in the near future. Unitary consciousness or divine consciousness is the unified field of energy that embraces many supplementary levels of consciousness in which change happens by gliding, sliding and displacement.
7.LOVE IS THE ESSENCE OF THIS GLIDING OR SLIDING TOWARD INTERIOR SPACE (7D’?), LIKE GRAVITATION IS FOR EXTERIOR SPACE (3D):WE ATTRACT AND ARE ATTRACTED BY THAT WHICH WE LOVE.
Love is the ultimate magnetic force. It is the source of all the sources of energy. Creation and human consciousness are like the rays of Sun that move away from the Sun but they are all also pulled back by the same energy that dispersed them. The Sun is like the magnet and the ray is like a piece of iron. They attract each other. Just as the Sun and its rays are always connected, so also we are all connected to our source which is love. But the rays can be conditioned and resist the full of the magnet of love and go through a process of gliding or sliding and displacement. The source of all our attractions is Love. Though it may begin with conditioned love but ultimately this process facilitates towards unconditioned love, which we call God, the Source of material universe, energy and consciousness. All our desires are ultimately desires for our Source, though we may project them into external objects and people. This journey towards love is interior. A mystic has said: when I look outside I find myself as a bubble in the ocean but when I look within I find the whole universe as a bubble within me. When we look at the universe or universes or Metaverse from our physical body we feel that we are like a bubble in the ocean but when we discover our inner space then we discover that the whole of manifested world is like a bubble within us. Theologically we can say that the whole of creation is in God. If God is in us then the whole of creation is also within us. The Metaverse is like a bubble in the ocean of our heart. In this experience we discover that creation is happening now. We are the creator and also co-creators and finally creation. Jesus Christ said ‘the kingdom of God is within you’ and ‘I am in the Father (God) and the Father (God) in me’.
In the Chandogya Upanishad we read:
In the center of the castle of Brahman, our own body,
There is a small shrine in the form of a lotus-flower,
And within can be found a small space. We should find who dwells there, and we should want to know him.

And if anyone asks, "Who is he who dwells in a small shrine
In the form of a lotus-flower
In the center of the castle of Brahman?
Whom should we want to find and to know?" we can answer:
The little space within the heart is as great as this vast universe.
The heavens and the earth are there, and the sun and the moon
And the stars: fire and lightning and winds are there;
And all that now is and all that is not:
For the whole universe is in Him and He dwells within our heart."

Love is also relationships based on our intrinsic oneness. It is to love one other just as God loves us. It is to be ‘fruitful and multiply’, which is to manifest the divine attributes of love, compassion and sharing in our relationships with other human beings, others creatures both sentient and non-sentient. Jesus said, ‘love one another as I have loved you’. This is the love manifested from the intrinsic oneness of God and creation. Isa Upanishad says’ a sage is one who sees all beings within oneself and oneself in all beings’ and ‘ a sage does not hurt himself/herself by hurting others’. This is living in the experience of oneness with God and oneness with creation. This is the non-dualistic love manifesting in non-dualistic relationships and non-dualistic actions.
 
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Open_Minded

Open_Minded

Nothing is Separate
John -

I'm with Ymir -

Although a Deist and Christian Contemplative - I've had many years experience involved with Interfaith dialog. For dialog between opposing positions to have long-term value, both positions must be put forward.


  1. Do you have a link to the whole dialog?
  2. Did your dialog produce any consensus?
  3. If so, where?
Thanks :)
 
J

John Martin

Active Member
Dear Open Minded,
The seven headings are the conclusions of the scientist. The explanations are my reactions.
Mr.Philip Guillement is a open minded physicist and deeply spiritual. His book in French is titled The Road of Time, in which he proposed his new scientific theory which is very much discussed. For more details he can visit his website:you can even write in Google, Philip Guillement and you will get the information about him. He is a close friend of mine we meet every year in France.
 
J

John Martin

Active Member
Dear godnotgot,
thank for referring Rupert Sheldrake is my person freind and I have read his book Science Delusion, which is a response to God delusion. We had a interview together and if he agrees I may post it.
thank you.
 
J

John Martin

Active Member
Dear Yamir,
the headings are the conclusions of the scientist and the explanations are my reaction to his conclusion. We both agreed on seven points and he was very pleased with my explanations so also the audience. Happily the scientist himself did not feel my thoughts a mental debris and he published it in his website.
Thank you.
 
godnotgod

godnotgod

Thou art That
John Martin said:
Dear godnotgot,
thank for referring Rupert Sheldrake is my person freind and I have read his book Science Delusion, which is a response to God delusion. We had a interview together and if he agrees I may post it.
thank you.
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That would be great! I stumbled across this video and my impression is that he is a 'drop of Reason in a sea of Delusion'.

'And an elephant madness has covered the Sun
The judge and the juries they play for the fun
They've torn up the roses and washed all the soap
And the martyr who marries them dares not elope'
Incredible String Band
 
J

John Martin

Active Member
godnotgod said:
That would be great! I stumbled across this video and my impression is that he is a 'drop of Reason in a sea of Delusion'.

'And an elephant madness has covered the Sun
The judge and the juries they play for the fun
They've torn up the roses and washed all the soap
And the martyr who marries them dares not elope'
Incredible String Band
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Dear godnotgod,
thank you for your kind post. I have sent a message to Rupert asking for his permission.As soon as I receive I will post.
Thanks
 
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