Is Scientology really a religion?

[Nietzsche]

Being a disgusting organization and being a religion are not mutually exclusive.


Being a party to murder and being a religion are not mutually exclusive.


Being a criminal organization and being a religion are not mutually exclusive.


Being fraudulent and being a religion are not mutually exclusive.

Being a "defacto terrorist organization" and being a religion are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I'd say that if Scientology has its own terrorists, this is a point in favour of considering it a religion, not a point against.

I am aware, but I would argue that Scientology more resembles a criminal enterprise than a religion, however shady or disgusting that religion might be.

Now... do I think that Scientology should get special benefits and privileges based on its religious nature? Hell no. But I don't think that any religious organization should get benefits merely because of its religious nature.

I agree.

As opposed to real religions....like Catholocism, Westboro Baptist Church, etc?

Say what you want about Pedophile Priests, the mongrel subhuman facsimiles that populate the Westboro compound, but they do seem to believe what they say. Scientology doesn't even have that going for it.

 

[Revoltingest]

Say what you want about Pedophile Priests, the mongrel subhuman facsimiles that populate the Westboro compound, but they do seem to believe what they say. Scientology doesn't even have that going for it.

What window into the soul of Tom Cruise & his ilk have you to say that they don't truly believe in their religion, but all other believers do?

 

[Nietzsche]

What window into the soul of Tom Cruise & his ilk have you to say that they don't truly believe in their religion, but all other believers do?

Because I desperately want, nay, need to believe that no one is so stupid as to take anything involving "Lord Xenu" and space-faring DC-8s being flown into volcanoes at face value.

 

[Revoltingest]

Because I desperately want, nay, need to believe that no one is so stupid as to take anything involving "Lord Xenu" and space-faring DC-8s being flown into volcanoes at face value.

The need to believe is the source of all evil.

OK, OK.....not all evil....but the above sounds better if I keep it really broad.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am aware, but I would argue that Scientology more resembles a criminal enterprise than a religion, however shady or disgusting that religion might be.

Again: the categories aren't mutually exclusive. It's like saying "Yao Ming more resembles a basketball player than a Chinese person." He's both. Yao Ming's basketball abilities don't make him less Chinese, and a religion's negative characteristics don't make it less of a religion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Because I desperately want, nay, need to believe that no one is so stupid as to take anything involving "Lord Xenu" and space-faring DC-8s being flown into volcanoes at face value.

I don't think that the Lord Xenu story is any less plausible than many other religious myths. I think that it's just as reasonable to expect somebody raised on tales of Xenu would believe in them sincerely as it is that someone who was raised on tales of Noah would sincerely believe in the flood myth.

 

[Jumi]

They do believe in the religion. I know there are many who believe it's the only true religion and that that is why they are being persecuted.

 

[fantome profane]

Because I desperately want, nay, need to believe that no one is so stupid as to take anything involving "Lord Xenu" and space-faring DC-8s being flown into volcanoes at face value.

It would be easy to make a list of other religious tenets, and central mainstream religious tenets, that are equally absurd. And some that are even more dangerous. But people really do believe them.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Again: the categories aren't mutually exclusive. It's like saying "Yao Ming more resembles a basketball player than a Chinese person." He's both. Yao Ming's basketball abilities don't make him less Chinese, and a religion's negative characteristics don't make it less of a religion.

What about Wahhabism or Salafi. Islam?

I see no subcategory here under Sunni Islam.

Are they inclusive?

Heavans Gate appears to have been reestablished since the suicides.

Are they inclusive under Raliean religion?

I'm sure there here are obviously good reasons why it's notably lacking and excluded here by which a lot of people don't blindly take such organizational bodies as being a religion on the basis by which a religion is defined, but rather more as being something other than what it's purported to be.

 

[dust1n]

So you'd have the government take a religion to court for fraud, eh.
Where would it stop.....what religion would be immune?

Scientology should be allowed to exist (but no religion should be getting tax breaks solely for being a religious institution), but heavily monitored. Considering:

Operation Snow White was the Church of Scientology's internal name for a major criminal conspiracy during the 1970s to purge unfavorable records about Scientology and its founder L. Ron Hubbard. This project included a series of infiltrations and thefts from 136 government agencies, foreign embassies and consulates, as well as private organizations critical of Scientology, carried out by Church members, in more than 30 countries.[1] It was the single largest infiltration of the United States government in history[2] with up to 5,000 covert agents.[3] This operation also exposed the Scientology plot 'Operation Freakout', because Operation Snow White was the case that initiated the US government investigation of the Church.[3]

Under this program, Scientology operatives committed infiltration, wiretapping, and theft of documents in government offices, most notably those of the U.S. Internal Revenue Service. Eleven highly placed Church executives, including Mary Sue Hubbard (wife of founder L. Ron Hubbard and second-in-command of the organization), pleaded guilty or were convicted in federal court of obstructing justice, burglary of government offices, and theft of documents and government property. The case was United States v. Mary Sue Hubbard et al., 493 F.Supp. 209 (D.D.C. 1979).[4][5][6][7]

And

Operation Freakout, also known as Operation PC Freakout, was a Church of Scientology covert plan intended to have the U.S. author and journalist Paulette Cooper imprisoned or committed to a mental institution. The plan, undertaken in 1976 following years of church-initiated lawsuits and covert harassment, was meant to eliminate the perceived threat that Cooper posed to the church and obtain revenge for her publication in 1971 of a highly critical book, The Scandal of Scientology. The Federal Bureau of Investigation discovered documentary evidence of the plot and the preceding campaign of harassment during an investigation into the Church of Scientology in 1977, eventually leading to the church compensating Cooper in an out-of-court settlement.



Pretty much has all the reason in the world to be entirely suspicious of this organization.

 

[Revoltingest]

Scientology should be allowed to exist (but no religion should be getting tax breaks solely for being a religious institution), but heavily monitored. Considering:

Operation Snow White was the Church of Scientology's internal name for a major criminal conspiracy during the 1970s to purge unfavorable records about Scientology and its founder L. Ron Hubbard. This project included a series of infiltrations and thefts from 136 government agencies, foreign embassies and consulates, as well as private organizations critical of Scientology, carried out by Church members, in more than 30 countries.[1] It was the single largest infiltration of the United States government in history[2] with up to 5,000 covert agents.[3] This operation also exposed the Scientology plot 'Operation Freakout', because Operation Snow White was the case that initiated the US government investigation of the Church.[3]

Under this program, Scientology operatives committed infiltration, wiretapping, and theft of documents in government offices, most notably those of the U.S. Internal Revenue Service. Eleven highly placed Church executives, including Mary Sue Hubbard (wife of founder L. Ron Hubbard and second-in-command of the organization), pleaded guilty or were convicted in federal court of obstructing justice, burglary of government offices, and theft of documents and government property. The case was United States v. Mary Sue Hubbard et al., 493 F.Supp. 209 (D.D.C. 1979).[4][5][6][7]

And

Operation Freakout, also known as Operation PC Freakout, was a Church of Scientology covert plan intended to have the U.S. author and journalist Paulette Cooper imprisoned or committed to a mental institution. The plan, undertaken in 1976 following years of church-initiated lawsuits and covert harassment, was meant to eliminate the perceived threat that Cooper posed to the church and obtain revenge for her publication in 1971 of a highly critical book, The Scandal of Scientology. The Federal Bureau of Investigation discovered documentary evidence of the plot and the preceding campaign of harassment during an investigation into the Church of Scientology in 1977, eventually leading to the church compensating Cooper in an out-of-court settlement.



Pretty much has all the reason in the world to be entirely suspicious of this organization.

I'm OK with suspicion.
But 40 year old charges don't justify federal meddling with their religious status today.

 

[dust1n]

I'm OK with suspicion. But 40 year old charges don't justify federal meddling with their religious status today.

Nope, but given the wealth of accusations given by many people, and the consistent abuse of law with frivolous cases, and the consistent selling of "cures" merits investigation.

 

[Twilight Hue]

No no, Osho is nowhere near Scientology, there has been so many lies about Osho, do your research.

I did. Wanna see the mugshot?

 

[oldbadger]

"The Church of Scientology has pursued an extensive public relations campaign for the recognition of Scientology as a religion in the various countries in which it exists. Opinions around the world still differ on whether Scientology is to be recognized as a religion or not, and Scientology has often encountered opposition due to its strong-arm tactics directed against critics and members wishing to leave the organization. A number of governments now view the Church as a religious organization entitled to protections and tax relief, while others continue to view it as a pseudoreligion or cult. The differences between these classifications have become a major problem when discussing religions in general and Scientology specifically.

Scientology is officially recognized as a religion in the United States.Recognition came in 1993, when the (IRS) stated that "[Scientology is] operated exclusively for religious and charitable purposes."

Scientology has so far failed to win religious recognition in Canada. In the UK, the Charity Commission for England and Wales ruled in 1999 that Scientology was not a religion and refused to register the Church as a charity, although a year later, it was recognized as a not-for-profit body in a separate proceeding by the UK Revenue and Customs and exempted from UK value added tax.

Since 1997 Germany has considered Scientology to be in conflict with the principles of the nation's constitution. It is seen as an anticonstitutional sect and a new version of political extremism and because there is "evidence for intentions against the free democratic basic order" it is observed by the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution."
Source: Wikipedia​

From their web site.

"Scientology certainly meets all three criteria generally used by religious scholars around the world to determine religiosity: (1) a belief in some Ultimate Reality, such as the Supreme or eternal truth that transcends the here and now of the secular world; (2) religious practices directed toward understanding, attaining or communing with this Ultimate Reality; and (3) a community of believers who join together in pursuing this Ultimate Reality.

The Scientology view of an Ultimate Reality transcending the material world includes its concepts of the thetan and the dynamics which include the spiritual world (the Seventh Dynamic) and the Supreme Being (the Eighth Dynamic). The second element can be found in Scientology life-rite ceremonies such as naming, marriage and funeral services, but predominantly in the religious services of auditing and training through which Scientologists increase their spiritual awareness and attain an understanding of both the spiritual world and, ultimately, the Supreme Being. As to the third element, a very vital community of believers can be found at any Church of Scientology at almost any time of the day.


Scientology is thus a religion in the most traditional sense of the term. Scientology helps Man become more aware of his own spiritual nature and that of those around him, and, hence, more aware of God."
source​

Think their explanation is a good case for Scientology being a religion?

Skwim.....
Is this the same as 'Christian Scientists'?
We had a Christian Scientists church in the village until about twenty years ago............ would that be similar to 'Scientology'?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Skwim.....
Is this the same as 'Christian Scientists'?
We had a Christian Scientists church in the village until about twenty years ago............ would that be similar to 'Scientology'?

No, completely different. Scientology is a sci-fi religion started by L. Ron Hubbard in the '50s. Nothing to do with Christianity at all. Hubbard was into black magick, actually.

 

[Kalibhakta]

Christian Science is bad news but for totally different reasons.

It was a cancerous outgrowth of New Thought.

In New Thought, it said that faith and right thinking could cure disease. That is ok because they also did not deny Medicine.

In Christian Science, that is the ONLY way people should be cured. That is not ok and people die for that.

They, however, are not a literal mafia cult.

 

[Revoltingest]

Nope, but given the wealth of accusations given by many people, and the consistent abuse of law with frivolous cases, and the consistent selling of "cures" merits investigation.

Of course, gov should investigate wherever & whenever there appears to be criminal activity.
That isn't really in dispute. I object to gov getting into the business of certifying & decertifying religions.

 

[Kalibhakta]

Of course, gov should investigate wherever & whenever there appears to be criminal activity.
That isn't really in dispute. I object to gov getting into the business of certifying & decertifying religions.

I don't think anybody really wants to outlaw Scientology. I think we want them nailed for crimes. I think people (I sure do!) assume that there is current crime, that warrants a full body investigation.
Their beliefs aren't the issue. It's the profoundly unethical behavior is. People have been killed.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't think anybody really wants to outlaw Scientology. I think we want them nailed for crimes. I think people (I sure do!) assume that there is current crime, that warrants a full body investigation.
Their beliefs aren't the issue. It's the profoundly unethical behavior is. People have been killed.

The talk of removing their religious tax advantages does rise to the level of decertification.
I'd deny government that power over religion.
Of course, the best course is to remove the special tax exemptions, thereby keeping them out from under Uncle Sam's thumb.....or boot.

 

[Kalibhakta]

That is fair. It seems like RICO charges are more reasonable