is secular system for real?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

just for the record, those are not my words. people may confuse.

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Sorry about that - I messed up my quote tags. I've fixed my post.

 

[Bitterfly]

hi

in Turkey many discussions has been made about secular system. more i listened to this secular people, i realized how bigot they are. concept of secularism almost lost its meaning. it is an empty concept.

here is what i think;

if we really divide beliefs and government, what's left behind could only be anarchy, no laws= wild West. because noone can make a law without believing something is right or wrong. i mean, if your law says that stealing is a crime and it deserves punishment, you must believe that's wrong. otherwise you can not make a law. so all the laws that's made by men are depend on beliefs of men. each law contains a belief. would you please tell me how's that make a nation secular?

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You must be being obtuse; one of the longest standing things all societies have in common since the idea was thought up was that the people in a state shouldn't kill, hurt, or steal from each other.

This needs no justification more than "I would really like to be able to walk down the street and not get shot at". In fact, the more secular a country is the safer it seems to be, if news is to be believed.

 

[.lava]

You must be being obtuse; one of the longest standing things all societies have in common since the idea was thought up was that the people in a state shouldn't kill, hurt, or steal from each other.

This needs no justification more than "I would really like to be able to walk down the street and not get shot at". In fact, the more secular a country is the safer it seems to be, if news is to be believed.

would you please tell me the defination of "obtuse" please?

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[Storm]

ob⋅tuse

1. not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
2. not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form.
3. (of a leaf, petal, etc.) rounded at the extremity.
4. indistinctly felt or perceived, as pain or sound.

 

[.lava]

ob⋅tuse

1. not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
2. not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form.
3. (of a leaf, petal, etc.) rounded at the extremity.
4. indistinctly felt or perceived, as pain or sound.

thank you now let's see which one he chosed.

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[Bitterfly]

I didn't mean to offend you; you're probably better than me at a lot of things.

I don't think this discussion can be very productive, spiritual people and secular people have very different views about themselves, human nature, and "people" in general.

I think spiritual thinking is harmful and silly, you think I am blind to the good things spirituality and a religious lifestyle has to offer. We can banter back and forth, trade rationalizations, but neither one of us will budge an inch.

 

[.lava]

I didn't mean to offend you; you're probably better than me at a lot of things.

I don't think this discussion can be very productive, spiritual people and secular people have very different views about themselves, human nature, and "people" in general.

I think spiritual thinking is harmful and silly, you think I am blind to the good things spirituality and a religious lifestyle has to offer. We can banter back and forth, trade rationalizations, but neither one of us will budge an inch.

ahh please stop talking to yourself, will you? i am a secular person because the religion i follow is secular.

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[Bitterfly]

I may have misunderstood you; your original post is something you commonly hear from religious people justifying their faith.

 

[Storm]

ahh please stop talking to yourself, will you? i am a secular person because the religion i follow is secular.

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How is Islam secular?

 

[Breathe]

ahh please stop talking to yourself, will you? i am a secular person because the religion i follow is secular.

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Hon, Islam is the most political religion that I know of. No other religion comes even close.

Islam is the only religion which tells you how to wipe your butt, literally..
Islamic toilet etiquette - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Tristesse]

ahh please stop talking to yourself, will you? i am a secular person because the religion i follow is secular.

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How is your religion secular? Are you aware of the definition of secular?

 

[themadhair]

Are you aware of the definition of secular?

I think this thread has established that the answer to that is no.

 

[.lava]

How is Islam secular?

it protects rights of people regardless what they believe. it is democratic. that's how. however you say secular system i know is not secular. women losing their jobs because they are wearing hijab is a result of secularism i know. Ottoman Sharia never did such a thing. on the contrary, they even paid non-Muslims certain amount of money, repaired their temples...etc. an ordinary non-Muslim whose right was violated by Shah himself was able to take his case to the court and that legal court made Shah came there as an ordinary man to be jugded and punished for what he's done. i know it because it happened. today, in secular nations i see, it is almost impossible to judge a president or ex-president. but in Ottoman Sharia if a crime was commited by (even) Shah, he would be judged like any other men. i do not see this kind of justice in today's nations. if a man was in powerful position, he is almost out of reach as if he i superior than public. that is not democracy. that's a kingdom. even though public call this system secular, they are treated as slaves. governments are for public. they are supposed to be. they are supposed to serve public not themselves.

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[.lava]

How is your religion secular? Are you aware of the definition of secular?

i do not think there is only one defination of secularism. it is lived differently in different places. from what i understand it should be a system that does not violate rights of people because they have different beliefs.


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[.lava]

I think this thread has established that the answer to that is no.

i've started this thread because there are somethings that i do not understand. i live in a secular nation but i see rights of people are violated in the name of protecting secular system. you -as a single human being- either offer me what you think, what you know so maybe you give some insight, if not no reason to tell what i know or don't. because you do not know me.


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[Breathe]

i do not think there is only one defination of secularism. it is lived differently in different places. from what i understand it should be a system that does not violate rights of people because they have different beliefs.

Secularism is secularism.

sec⋅u⋅lar⋅ism

 /ˈsɛk

yə

ləˌrɪz

əm/ [sek-yuh-luh-riz-uh

m] –noun

1. secular spirit or tendency, esp. a system of political or social philosophy that rejects all forms of religious faith and worship.
2. the view that public education and other matters of civil policy should be conducted without the introduction of a religious element.


Does Islam fit under that kind of definition? Nope.

 

[.lava]

Secularism is secularism.

sec⋅u⋅lar⋅ism

 /ˈsɛk

yə

ləˌrɪz

əm/ [sek-yuh-luh-riz-uh

m] –noun

1. secular spirit or tendency, esp. a system of political or social philosophy that rejects all forms of religious faith and worship.
2. the view that public education and other matters of civil policy should be conducted without the introduction of a religious element.


Does Islam fit under that kind of definition? Nope.

rejects all forms of faith and worship...? which nation practice that? it really makes no sense to me. you could not reject anything if you did not believe in something else. no, Sharia would not reject any faith, on the contrary it would let people live their faith freely.

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[Breathe]

rejects all forms of faith and worship...? which nation practice that? it really makes no sense to me. you could not reject anything if you did not believe in something else. no, Sharia would not reject any faith, on the contrary it would let people live their faith freely.

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Simply put, that means religion and politics are separate.

Example countries of secular societies are Finland, Sweden, Denmark, etc. Religion does not have any political sway in the country, and laws are made to protect the people, not the religion.

I do disagree that a religion with shari'a would allow people to live their faith freely, simply because shari'a is a Muslim thing - and within Muslim communities churches and synagogues have often been forbidden for people to build again, etc. I understand your view on it, but I don't think it would work in practice, at least for very long.

 

[.lava]

Simply put, that means religion and politics are separate.

is that mean religious people have no place in government?

Example countries of secular societies are Finland, Sweden, Denmark, etc. Religion does not have any political sway in the country, and laws are made to protect the people, not the religion.

don't you think it is because people mostly do not follow a religion there? i mean, what happens to a woman who works for government if she choses some religion to follow? would she lose her job?

I do disagree that a religion with shari'a would allow people to live their faith freely, simply because shari'a is a Muslim thing - and within Muslim communities churches and synagogues have often been forbidden for people to build again, etc. I understand your view on it, but I don't think it would work in practice, at least for very long.

in today's conditions it is not surprising if you disagree, i can relate. but our grands (and their grands...etc) did practice the Sharia correctly and they lasted for centuries. we are still here. we have the same knowledge they followed and practiced. according to this knowledge you can not oppress or discriminate people.

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[Breathe]

is that mean religious people have no place in government?

Not at all, just that religion and religious laws do not have a place in the running of a country. Religious people should be given the same freedoms of those without religion to live in a country, but they should not under any circumstances be allowed to decide that their faith should be imposed upon others.

don't you think it is because people mostly do not follow a religion there? i mean, what happens to a woman who works for government if she choses some religion to follow? would she lose her job?

Of course not, that would be discrimination. The reason I chose those examples is because they are very secular countries. They also have a lower crime rate tham many nations.

in today's conditions it is not surprising if you disagree, i can relate. but our grands (and their grands...etc) did practice the Sharia correctly and they lasted for centuries. we are still here. we have the same knowledge they followed and practiced. according to this knowledge you can not oppress or discriminate people.

I agree, and that's why I disagree with shari'a law.