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Is Self Love Good?

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
Is it something we should seek out at all?

Is too much of it a bad thing?

Is some amount good? (or even necessary?)

If so, then how much should we have? And how much is too much? And how do you figure that out?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Is it something we should seek out at all?

Is too much of it a bad thing?

Is some amount good? (or even necessary?)

If so, then how much should we have? And how much is too much? And how do you figure that out?
I figure it's probably no better or worse than any living creature out there that watches and takes care of itself throughout its life.

Of course there's also the matter of narcissism which to me would be an extreme definition that is displayed fairly well on the Planet of the Apes involving individuals who would love to be showered with praise and flattering dialogues.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
I figure it's probably no better or worse than any living creature out there that watches and takes care of itself throughout its life.

Of course there's also the matter of narcissism which to me would be an extreme definition that is displayed fairly well on the Planet of the Apes involving individuals who would love to be showered with praise and flattering dialogues.

Yeah. I think a good starting point in answering the question is to identify some workable premises, such as you have done. Taking care of your own basic needs is obviously good, and being a narcissist is obviously bad. (Those are decent "for the sake of argument" starting points.) We can possibly even suppose that "one step below narcissism" (like being a self-concerned *******) is also bad-- or at least "more bad than good."

But what about feeling pride in your accomplishments? That's a kind of watered-down narcissism when you look at it under a microscope. Does that make it good or bad?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Yeah. I think a good starting point in answering the question is to identify some workable premises, such as you have done. Taking care of your own basic needs is obviously good, and being a narcissist is obviously bad. (Those are decent "for the sake of argument" starting points.) We can possibly even suppose that "one step below narcissism" (like being a self-concerned *******) is also bad-- or at least "more bad than good."

But what about feeling pride in your accomplishments? That's a kind of watered-down narcissism when you look at it under a microscope. Does that make it good or bad?
I suppose people like leaving a legacy and being credited for it. Well that might be nice however I don't see how that could be practical in the long run over the course of time because these things eventually fade away. Maybe the karmic aspect might still have a ripple effect, even after things have been forgotten and stricken from the minds of others.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
I suppose people like leaving a legacy and being credited for it. Well that might be nice however I don't see how that could be practical in the long run over the course of time because these things eventually fade away. Maybe the karmic aspect might still have a ripple effect, even after things have been forgotten and stricken from the minds of others.

I don't think self-love necessitates wanting to leave a legacy.

Sure, narcissists and such often fantasize about that. But I bet you could find a few narcissists who were just fine receiving an excess of love and adoration while they lived, even if it all stopped when they died. (In addition, even the non-narcissist may have an occasional grandiose fantasy about being remembered for their life's work.)

So I think that line of thought, valuable as it is, is tangential to the question of "How much self love is good? And how do we figure it out?"

If someone is concerned about "karmic ripples" idk if I'd qualify that as self love. If you want to be a force of good in the world, regardless if anyone remembers your name... idk... that sounds about as far as narcissism as you can get.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I don't think self-love necessitates wanting to leave a legacy.

Sure, narcissists and such often fantasize about that. But I bet you could find a few narcissists who were just fine receiving an excess of love and adoration while they lived, even if it all stopped when they died. (In addition, even the non-narcissist may have an occasional grandiose fantasy about being remembered for their life's work.)

So I think that line of thought, valuable as it is, is tangential to the question of "How much self love is good? And how do we figure it out?"

If someone is concerned about "karmic ripples" idk if I'd qualify that as self love. If you want to be a force of good in the world, regardless if anyone remembers your name... idk... that sounds about as far as narcissism as you can get.
Well , "to thine own self be true" ought to suffice fairly well then.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Self love can mean many good or bad things. Since I define love as in accordance with virtues in heart and mind then in this case self love is a good thing. Otherwise there are plenty of lesser loves that are simply no good. One leads to narcissism and arrogant ego. Others lead down immoral paths. Not all love is the same.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
Well , "to thine own self be true" ought to suffice fairly well then.

But, according to what you implied before, narcissism is bad. What exactly is bad about it?

We would probably agree that narcissism is an excessive amount of self love. A great deal of psychologists agree (in most part) with that definition.

We might also agree that "feelings of pride in oneself and self love" are what constitutes the essence of a narcissistic personality.

But the question then remains: what amount of pride or self love constitute an overall good?

Because, I agree with you that some of these "narcissistic" tendencies are required (and even morally good) in some amount. But I also agree with you (unless I misunderstand you) that these "prideful" qualities are not justified in certain quantities. They are obviously bad in some cases.

Is it possible to figure out the exact point where self-love turns sour? Can we triangulate the position on a graph where self love goes from being necessary to destructive?

Is a narcissist who is true to themselves inherently good?
 
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Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Some would say the Greeks had this figured out a couple thousand years ago with the adage "all things in moderation."

Certainly, I doubt many would posit that the absence of self-love and self-acceptance is good.

Just as I doubt many would posit that single-minded obsession with self-love and self-acceptance is good.

It is for each in their own path of wisdom to determine what the course ought to be.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I see such more as toleration (of our faults) than self-love - and which then helps not to judge others so readily.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
In all seriousness, there is an old adage that says you can't love another until you learn to love yourself. In my experience, there is certainly truth to this.

Too much, or a lack of balance between loving oneself and loving others can lead to narcissism. Too little results in inability to love others.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Is it something we should seek out at all?

Is too much of it a bad thing?

Is some amount good? (or even necessary?)

If so, then how much should we have? And how much is too much? And how do you figure that out?
Pragmatically, there are definitely people who suffer from having either too little or too much self-love.

Too little self-love can be regrettably difficult to clearly identify, mainly because it is usually the result of oppressive, twisted social environments that drown people into too much expectation and too little emotional support.

Too much of it is usually fairly obvious to anyone who is not in the business of expecting too much of the afflicted. That, alas, is often a very large group that includes the afflicted.

The main disadvantages of excessive self-love are the risk of developing unreasonable expectations of oneself and of others and the impact of that excess of self-love on the social environment.

The main disadvantages of a lack of self-love are harm to motivation, joy and ability to function as a healthy human being.
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
I don't think it's either bad or good. I don't think it's about finding some kind of golden mean between extremes, either.

I think it completely depends on how it's used, which I think is true for virtually everything. If self-love helps you be a better person, then it's good. If it hurts you and the people around you, then it's bad. I think it can do either of these, sometimes even both at the same time, so it's very context-dependent.

I don't think too much self-love is really the issue most people think it is, though. If you think about self-love being an issue, it's not normally the self-love itself that's the problem. It's the dehumanization and devaluation of other people. It's self-love at the expense of others.

I don't think self-love necessarily results in selfishness. You can love yourself as much as you love other people, for instance. So the real issue isn't self-love but the balance between whether you love yourself more, less, or the same as you love others, and to what degree that difference is.

If someone really likes the sound of their own voice and is obsessed with their own image, to the point where they consider themselves to be their own soulmate, I don't think that's such a terrible thing. Maybe I'm even a little envious of their self-esteem to a degree. But if they start belittling someone who has a crush on them as "incapable of measuring up" to themselves, or when they start monopolizing conversations and calling unnecessary meetings, then that's when it becomes an issue, right?

Self-love doesn't necessarily imply selfishness, egocentrism, or a lack of self-awareness on its own.

This might sound a bit paranoid, but I think industrial, consumer societies have developed this idea that self-love is equivalent to these other, more destructive qualities as a way to keep people insecure so that they feel pressured to buy more stuff that they don't need.

Oh, you love the way you look without our product? You're so self-absorbed that you don't realize how ridiculous you actually look without it! Oh, you enjoy your own company and don't feel the need to join our dating site? You must think you're better than everyone else. Oh, you don't care what other people think so you aren't falling for our bandwagon advertising campaigns? We'll just convince our consumer base to shun you as self-absorbed and antisocial until you cave into our trends or stay away from influencing our customers.

Wait, no, that's not a conspiracy theory. They actually teach these tactics in business marketing classes. Maybe more people should love themselves, then, and stop letting the world beat them down for it.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Love is selfless. It always gives, never takes. Always forgives, never judges. When love flows freely from the human heart, it can only do good, never harm.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Is it something we should seek out at all?

Is too much of it a bad thing?

Is some amount good? (or even necessary?)

If so, then how much should we have? And how much is too much? And how do you figure that out?
Humans are unique to the animal kingdom in that we have two centers of consciousness; inner self and ego. These two centers are connected to the conscious mind and unconscious mind, respectively. Animals, have one center; inner self. They act on impulses through natural instinct firmware, connected to their inner self, with each animal true to its nature as a given species.

The inner self is the center of a species brain's natural DNA based operating system. We do not see lions pretending to be butterflies. Their inside and outside use the same inner self operating system; form and function. If a pet dog is goofy, he does not try to hide this behind a facade like humans may do; pretend to be debonaire. The dog only has an inner self; stays true to themselves; outside goofball and all that makes them dear. They are real and not behind an ego mask.

Humans are unique in that we have two centers. We have the inner self like the animal, but also an ego center which is connected to our conscious mind and is subject to will and choice. The inner defines us as a species; human nature. The secondary center or ego center, unique to humans, allows us to create an external mask or persona, that may or may not be the same person under the mask; actor. For example, we all have private things we do not share with strangers.These stay hidden behind a mask, so strangers are not aware. The ego center build this mask.

Humans via the two centers often have a level of connect and disconnect between the ego and inner self centers. These two centers will often overlap when spontaneous. They can also separate if we need to control unconscious impulses and pretend to be civilized. You may be among friends doing cut up comedy and say whatever comes to mind; spontaneously and funny together. Or you may be with strangers and want to say something spontaneous; internally, but you will use the ego to self censor to spare the unknown feelings of strangers. If we had no censor, the ego would be more of an extension of the inner self, like the animal; animal strength. But culture teaches us to build certain walls to strengthen the ego center, which has to make choices apart from the more spontaneous inner self.

For example, when guys and gals meet, the guy may feel immediate sexual attraction from the inner self. However, it would not be proper to start undressing and expect her to do the same, in the middle of the street; like two dogs. The ego will feel the inner self assessment of attraction and desire, but it is taught and knows it cannot just act on this impulse; immediately like a dog.

It will need to build an ego wall to control the immediate impulse, and pretend social protocol for the time being. This may involve allowing some spontaneous hustle talk to come to surface; prepared pick up lines, to betray your longer term interest. The gal may also feel the same way, even earlier, but she does not wish you think she is too easy, so she will put up a cool ego wall, so you cannot tell or accuse her; think less socially of her.This is a common example of the two centers, in both the male and female, working in both opposite and the same directions; inner self and ego self.

Self love is not one thing but two things due to two centers; inner self love and ego self love. Inner self love is about being true to our collective human propensities, that are common to all humans; natural instincts that makes us all part of the human species. This is good inner self love. It encompasses a love for humanity, by loving our own inner self. On the other hand, some will hate their inner self, since it is not perverted and will not take unnatural paths and chances; egocentric inhuman behavior.

Ego self love is often about the ego's learned social walls, created by culture and by the ego's adaption to the inner self, via social protocol and practical experiences. Ego self love can be positive if it is based on using the ego to adapt the inner self; human nature, to the social protocols, so both can be more or less optimized; best of both worlds. An optimized ego centric self love would find a way to complement both the inner self and culture. In the example above with attractive desire, the ego will not deny the desire, but choose to build up intimacy. This is acceptable to culture and also helps the inner self; complementary, since intimacy is also a part of human nature.

Alternately, a male might open his wallet and offer $100 to satisfy this inner self urge with his ego. This is not legal in all countries. It may work for both needs, but it is not be optimized for either; natural or social. The DNA based programs of the inner self knows sex is the carrot on the string, leading to procreation. Adult intimacy will be needed to optimize the subsequent caring of the resultant offspring; longer term goal. Cold business deals will often lead to damaged children, due to their neglect from lack of parental intimacy. The ego, by not understanding natural instinct, may not even know it is damaging the inner self coding, leading to bugs; escalation of the ego bizarre.

An analogy for this inner self coding, is you are on a carnival ride, where the ride spins you in circles, and then it lifts you into the air, before it descends. You only want to do the spin; carrot on the string, but not the lift; intimacy, so you try to get off the ride just before it lifts; stay cold blooded like business. Bugs appear in the operating system, since the ride is hardwired, and does not know your will to get off, so it does not stop before you try to exit. The damage is done via the repression of the lift cycle. Moral systems are about helping the ego stay in tune with the natural firmware of the inner self, while also allowing the ego to develop will and choices that help culture, ego, and the inner self.
 
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Soandso

ᛋᛏᚨᚾᛞ ᛋᚢᚱᛖ
In all seriousness, there is an old adage that says you can't love another until you learn to love yourself. In my experience, there is certainly truth to this.

This ^^^

Self care and self love is important. If you don't take care of yourself, how are you going to care for others? If you don't have love for yourself, how are you going to effectively love others?

If you work on yourself and build a strong foundation for yourself then you can then be a source of strength for others around you when they ask you for help. There's nothing worse than not being able to help people you care about when they need it due to self neglect
 
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