NulliuSINverba
Active Member
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." ~ Luke 21:33
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Certain Christians have made the claim that they've received Objective Morality via Divine Revelation. Typically, Objective Morality is defined as morality that is always true irrespective of a person's own subjective opinions … in the same sense that a mathematical equation such as "1 + 1 = 2" is always true irrespective of how an individual might feel about it personally.
Note: For the sake of this argument, I'll be using the term “Divine Revelation” to mean “that which has been revealed via the Bible.” It might be possible that an alleged god might have other methods of revelation, but these other methods would need to be demonstrated if they're to be considered.
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Q. - The Bible either endorses slavery, or it doesn't endorse slavery, correct?
If you feel compelled to characterize this as a false dichotomy, you are obliged to explain why at your earliest opportunity.
Q. - If it is true that God's Word doesn't condemn slavery (and in fact serves as a “How-To” guide to aspiring slave owners), then are Christians obliged to concede that they cannot appeal to their divine revelation if they wish to characterize slavery as objectively immoral?
"It is true that the Bible does not formally and explicitly condemn slavery as an institution." ~ Kenneth R. Samples (via reasons.org)
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Department of Yeah-But-You're-Ignoring-The-Context: One might seek to refute the conclusion that Christians cannot characterize slavery as objectively immoral by appealing to the many differences that are evident between our own modern culture and the (more) ignorant, (more) barbaric, Bronze Age culture that is alleged to have served as the initial depository for the Christian god's divine revelations … but this is evidently an argument that some Christians find objectionable:
“The claim that God's Word is bound to time and shackled to the culture of its time does not do justice to God's revelation.” ~ Walt Lampi
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In fact, if the Christian claim that their god is eternal and unchanging is true, then it evidently follows that this eternal, unchanging god's pronouncements are unchanging because the two are inseparable:
“God and His Word cannot be separated from one another. Scripture bears witness that they are one: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God' (John 1:1)." ~ Walt Lampi
If you'd like to disprove Mr. Lampi's assertion that God and His Word are inseparable, now would be a good time to do so. Ideally, you'll cite the Bible to prove your point.
...
Moving along, I'd now like to offer Christians an opportunity to utilize whatever divine revelation they feel is appropriate to prove that slavery is objectively immoral.*
* and don't forget to show your work.
As an additional sort of litmus test, Christians are also invited to either agree or disagree with the following premises (originally published in an 1820 edition of the Richmond Enquirer as what appears to be a religiously-motivated defense of slavery):
The above is cited from The Religious Defense of American Slavery Before 1830 by Larry R. Morrison.
So. Do you agree with all of those premises? Some of them? None of them? Why and/or why not?
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Q. - Is the abolition of slavery an example of Objective or Subjective morality in action?
Penultimate Question:
Q. - Did the United States fall away from God when it outlawed the divinely-sanctioned practice of slavery?
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How unfortunate that the Christian god didn't see fit to reveal anywhere in the Bible that there would come a day when humanity would view slavery as a moral evil? What a missed opportunity to demonstrate that alleged omniscience!
...
Department of In-Case-You-Needed-It-Spelled-Out-For-You: It is my suspicion that Christians cannot account for the immorality of slavery from within the confines of their faith-based claim of objective morality via divine revelation, and that (when scrutinized) their claim is revealed to be pure, unvarnished twaddle.
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Final question:
Q. - Did the various authors of the various works that were eventually compiled into the Christian Bible fail to predict a world that viewed slavery as a moral evil simply because they were collectively incapable of imagining a world that viewed slavery as a moral evil?
Postscript: I offer this thread primarily to demonstrate the utter fatuousness of the Christian claim to objective morality via Divine Revelation. Additionally, I'm hoping to point towards some of the inescapable consequences we're obliged to accept (read: that slavery is in fact objectively moral) if this unsubstantiated claim is assumed to be true and we attempt to employ it to make sense of the real world.
...
Certain Christians have made the claim that they've received Objective Morality via Divine Revelation. Typically, Objective Morality is defined as morality that is always true irrespective of a person's own subjective opinions … in the same sense that a mathematical equation such as "1 + 1 = 2" is always true irrespective of how an individual might feel about it personally.
Note: For the sake of this argument, I'll be using the term “Divine Revelation” to mean “that which has been revealed via the Bible.” It might be possible that an alleged god might have other methods of revelation, but these other methods would need to be demonstrated if they're to be considered.
...
Q. - The Bible either endorses slavery, or it doesn't endorse slavery, correct?
If you feel compelled to characterize this as a false dichotomy, you are obliged to explain why at your earliest opportunity.
Q. - If it is true that God's Word doesn't condemn slavery (and in fact serves as a “How-To” guide to aspiring slave owners), then are Christians obliged to concede that they cannot appeal to their divine revelation if they wish to characterize slavery as objectively immoral?
"It is true that the Bible does not formally and explicitly condemn slavery as an institution." ~ Kenneth R. Samples (via reasons.org)
...
Department of Yeah-But-You're-Ignoring-The-Context: One might seek to refute the conclusion that Christians cannot characterize slavery as objectively immoral by appealing to the many differences that are evident between our own modern culture and the (more) ignorant, (more) barbaric, Bronze Age culture that is alleged to have served as the initial depository for the Christian god's divine revelations … but this is evidently an argument that some Christians find objectionable:
“The claim that God's Word is bound to time and shackled to the culture of its time does not do justice to God's revelation.” ~ Walt Lampi
...
In fact, if the Christian claim that their god is eternal and unchanging is true, then it evidently follows that this eternal, unchanging god's pronouncements are unchanging because the two are inseparable:
“God and His Word cannot be separated from one another. Scripture bears witness that they are one: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God' (John 1:1)." ~ Walt Lampi
If you'd like to disprove Mr. Lampi's assertion that God and His Word are inseparable, now would be a good time to do so. Ideally, you'll cite the Bible to prove your point.
...
Moving along, I'd now like to offer Christians an opportunity to utilize whatever divine revelation they feel is appropriate to prove that slavery is objectively immoral.*
* and don't forget to show your work.
As an additional sort of litmus test, Christians are also invited to either agree or disagree with the following premises (originally published in an 1820 edition of the Richmond Enquirer as what appears to be a religiously-motivated defense of slavery):
Pro-slavery Theists from 1820 said:
The above is cited from The Religious Defense of American Slavery Before 1830 by Larry R. Morrison.
So. Do you agree with all of those premises? Some of them? None of them? Why and/or why not?
...
Q. - Is the abolition of slavery an example of Objective or Subjective morality in action?
Penultimate Question:
Q. - Did the United States fall away from God when it outlawed the divinely-sanctioned practice of slavery?
...
How unfortunate that the Christian god didn't see fit to reveal anywhere in the Bible that there would come a day when humanity would view slavery as a moral evil? What a missed opportunity to demonstrate that alleged omniscience!
...
Department of In-Case-You-Needed-It-Spelled-Out-For-You: It is my suspicion that Christians cannot account for the immorality of slavery from within the confines of their faith-based claim of objective morality via divine revelation, and that (when scrutinized) their claim is revealed to be pure, unvarnished twaddle.
...
Final question:
Q. - Did the various authors of the various works that were eventually compiled into the Christian Bible fail to predict a world that viewed slavery as a moral evil simply because they were collectively incapable of imagining a world that viewed slavery as a moral evil?
Postscript: I offer this thread primarily to demonstrate the utter fatuousness of the Christian claim to objective morality via Divine Revelation. Additionally, I'm hoping to point towards some of the inescapable consequences we're obliged to accept (read: that slavery is in fact objectively moral) if this unsubstantiated claim is assumed to be true and we attempt to employ it to make sense of the real world.
