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Is Stillness Necessary To Spirituality?

It all depends on what you believe to be the truth about spirituality and religion. A Christian's requisite for spiritual awareness may differ from say, a Buddhist's. So my answer would be no...not necessarily. It would of course also depend on your definition of spirituality. Some might claim for a feeling to be spiritual it requires an involvement or emotional relationship with something supernatural. Others may say spirituality (as Eudaimonist put it) can be gained through something as simple as jumping for joy over something natural or watching a chess match.
 
Scarlett Wampus said:
The more one meditates the less one perceives until it all collapses into, er, one. And from that, collapses into none.

How do you figure that? I sound like you're only away of one kind of meditation technique.

And while that might be your subjective understanding of "stillness" it is not mine. To me, stillness is a state of neutrality and calmness where one can perceive things without being wrapped up in, or emotionally attached to them. It heightens awareness, it does not negate it.
 

Scarlett Wampus

psychonaut
Vigdisdotter said:
How do you figure that? I sound like you're only away of one kind of meditation technique.

And while that might be your subjective understanding of "stillness" it is not mine. To me, stillness is a state of neutrality and calmness where one can perceive things without being wrapped up in, or emotionally attached to them. It heightens awareness, it does not negate it.
Oh stillness is like a like a state of neutrality and calmness where one perceives things without being wrapped up in them. Certainly. And this can be like a heightened awareness too. Yes. But these things are not stillness itself, they are things we perceive. In complete stillness there is no perception because there is nothing to perceive.

In my response before I was reacting to the sense that perception (assumed, changes in) is more important than stillness. While exercises like meditation, silent prayer, reposeful contemplation, etc. certainly do lead to changes in perception it is stillness itself which is most important, not the side effects. Rather than the means to the end of changes-in-perception, these changes are surface manifestations only. No matter how fascinating and fulfilling they appear to be they become dry when cut from their source in stillness. I'll try and explain what this means.

A good night's sleep can do wonders. Problems that seemed insurmountable the day before can be seen with a simpler clarity. Logical & creative insights that did not occur and could not have occurred in the rush of the moment appear like new shoots breaking out of the ground though hidden by darkness. We can't explain it to ourselves, but much is dealt with in the absence of our consciously directed thought. This is like stillness, a hole for I-know-not-what to enter. We don't control this stillness for our own ends we give in to it and let it take over.

During a relationship with another where things have reached an impasse it may be futile to carry on trying to make things work. Time away from the conflict can shed light on the whole thing. By calming down and taking a break we can come to accept where we were wrong, understand ourselves and the other better than we did before, and forget our hot-headed grievances. To withdraw is to move forward, and again, it is not through actively trying to change things that this is possible but by letting it all go. This is like stillness. Its a great harmoniser yet its methods are mysterious. All we are aware of while it is at work is the stillness.

Up until the end of my teenage years I spent my life trying to experience as much as I possibly could. I wanted to storm the gates of heaven by force and I got the impression 'paradigm shifts' were part of this. I thought that if I could expand my mind enough, try all sorts of things, make some enormous effort and discipline myself, that the way would be revealed to me. For sure I went through many altered states of perception yet the more I experienced the greater the distance seemed from myself to my goal. Nevertheless my hunger drove me on. I don't think its an exaggeration to say I had an almost pathological determination to look upon the imperceivable face of God. In the end I became so enamored with what I viewed as my successes in life I actually began to believe I was unstoppable. Thats a very dangerous delusion! The unstoppable in search of the impossible is a vicious circle. The myths at both extremes of the cycle are illusory; that there is somewhere tangible to get to and that this will be reached eventually if pursued. That these myths were a product of my imagination took the collapse of my health, something I saw as a monumental and irreversible failure, to realise. Even then only in part since I did not understand the extent to which all grasping is futile.

So I came to stillness from that. I stopped everything (had to) and followed a meditative lifestyle (had to), taking only minimal breaks. Not only did I become the happiest I'd ever remembered being during this period and had sweeping 'spiritual' experiences much deeper than any before, but when I was well enough to return to work/study I found many of the neurotic problems I'd struggled with for as long as I could remember had disappeared! Plenty more to deal with and some new ones too but the fact so much had been resolved stunned me. I was undeniably better off yet I had not been aware of any attempt to sort myself out. All I'd been doing was practising meditation, not even that really since it wasn't something I had been trying to do it had been something I had to do. I didn't understand the significance of this. Becoming less happy after returning to work/study I began to panic and tried to force myself to meditate (grasping at happiness). That of course made things worse and I lost my equanimity quite quickly. Laughably I then become even more embroiled in the quest to get it back, missing the point completely. At least I had this: I knew I had to understand what had happened to me while recovering from illness and I looked to psychology, philosophy and Taoism/Buddhism to help, which they did. I also had the direct experience of that time in great stillness to help me discern the real deal from the BS of ego-flattering religious sentimentality.

My major hang up was over discipline. The more I tried to be disciplined the more wayward, hedonistic and dissatisfied with my progress I became. It wasn't like before since I no longer believed I was getting anywhere yet, as I mentioned before, I hadn't understood the significance of this and thought I must be doing something wrong. I was of course, but it was because I 'perceived' The Way as something that was leaving my perception rather than permeating it throughout. My whole life fell to pieces, again. Although I knew I was in stalemate I didn't know what to do so carried on regardless. More than five years later I was still no better off. A thousand paradigm shifts and exciting adventures had amounted to nothing. So, I gave up, again. I resigned myself to being a failure, again. Lo and behold I could meditate, again! It came as easily as sitting down to do nothing. Oh the irony!

The difference now is rather than wait until I'm so exhausted I have no choice other than to let go and be surprised to find the great stillness of the Tao picking me up and putting me back on my feet I'm starting to appreciate I can make the conscious decision to give up before it comes to that. I understand the necessity of discipline but I'm also beginning to understand the necessity of surrendering spiritual & material aspiration to stillness, nothingness, for such discipline to have any use. This is what Chuang Tzu called the usefulness of uselessness. Discipline, effort, virtue, power, changes in perception, meditation, etc. they are all quite useless, and only when this is understood do they flow in harmony with the Tao found in stillness. And to find in stillness is not to find at all! It is to rest from the search. What we are seeking is always right here. The true self is not-self, and not-self is not found, created or maintained. All that can be found, created or maintained is the suspension of grasping so as to let the I-know-not-what through, and this means realising that doing anything else is as worthless as nothing. Thus a Taoist does nothing to achieve nothing yet leaves nothing undone.

The source is not some religious perspective or personal perspective. Its not some heightened awareness either. None of this is it. Its what we don't see, and we don't see it most completely in stillness. Its better to forget perception and just return in stillness. This is why I spoke up before.
 

Mr. Hair

Renegade Cavalcade
Sunstone said:
What do you consider to be the relationship between desire and purpose, on the one hand, and stillness, on the other hand?
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking me, but I'll give the old finger-typing-thingie a bash... :cool:

I see them as being two complimentary aspects that contribute to who we are in the moment and how we perceive things, much as how both good and bad experiences shape the kind of person we become. If, say, we were to remove all our negative memories, we would not only lessen ourselves but would, in a very real sense, stop being ourselves. Our perspective and awareness of that which is without and within is in constant change; noise moves to silence and returns to noise, both are parts of ourselves and the world. Neither is superior to the other, and indeed there is no clear dividing line between the two.

To desire no desires is to be filled with desire. Problems arise when we try to focus solely or impose a particular state of mind upon ourselves. There is a time for movement and a time for stillness, to truly understand ourselves we should experience both, whilst recognising that both can only partially illuminate ourselves.
 

Peace4all

Active Member
Sunstone said:
Is an inner stillness of mind necessary to spirituality?

If so, must we always have an inner stillness of mind for genuine spiritual awareness, or is stillness more like an occassional experience that enriches and informs our spirituality?

Can we have a genuine spiritual awareness if our mind flaps about like a fish on land?

Is spirituality grounded in something deeper or more primal than mere day to day consciousness?

http://mysticsaint.blogspot.com/2006/08/action-of-no-action.html#links

Spiritual groundness is a good thing but you cant have 2 much to the extent where you are blindly follow your religion if you dissagree with many of it's views and think it's a false religion.

It's always good to ask questions about why is it like this or why is isn't it like that. You should never get an " its just like that"
I think i have ADD so im niether still in real life nor in spirituality!:soccer: :woohoo: :drunk: :trampo:
 
Scarlett Wampus said:
In complete stillness there is no perception because there is nothing to perceive.

I disagree. Complete stillness doesn't obliterate perception. It just removes our limited understanding of connectedness.

Scarlett Wampus said:
stillness itself which is most important, not the side effects.

Why? Without perception, there is no spirituality.

Scarlett Wampus said:
We don't control this stillness for our own ends we give in to it and let it take over.

How is that "stillness"? It sounds more like you're talking about the Divine Spark.

Scarlett Wampus said:
To withdraw is to move forward, and again, it is not through actively trying to change things that this is possible but by letting it all go. This is like stillness.

How is this NOT what I was talking about? Stillness as a tool to clear perception, which in turn allows for spiritual insight.
 

Scarlett Wampus

psychonaut
I disagree. Complete stillness doesn't obliterate perception. It just removes our limited understanding of connectedness.

Well you're right, and its a yes and no rightness. In complete Samadhi there is nothing. Thus all is connectedness and also there is no connectedness - but all these words are a retrospective gloss on what cannot be described anyway. All we have to hold on to are the shells of the life inside that was ever hidden from our clutches. Stillness is yielding to what is hidden, and so in a sense, never present even as it is always present.

Why? Without perception, there is no spirituality.

Yes and no again. With and without the stillness that precedes spirituality (perception) there is no spirituality at all! There is a subtle difference but no way to demonstrate this so better to give up.

How is that "stillness"? It sounds more like you're talking about the Divine Spark.

In this context if its a 'the' rather than a mysterious 'it', we've passed it right by no? Oh Vigdisdotter it seems I'll counter everything you say. I should explain. This is a habit I have. Because this subject hooks right into deflecting intellectual grasping, part of something I do if I'm meditating, this is having an influence on what I'm writing here. Probably best to ignore me since I will ramble on forever about nothing.
 

BrandonE

King of Parentheses
Scarlett Wampus said:
...<snip>...My major hang up was over discipline. The more I tried to be disciplined the more wayward, hedonistic and dissatisfied with my progress I became....<snip>...
Thanks for that post. The whole thing was fantastic. So well said.

I tried to frubal you again, but I've done it too recently.

I've found that for me stillness is definitely required for spirituality. I'm not confident that it is a requirement for everyone though. There seem to me to be multiple paths to spirituality, and not all of them include stillness as an obvious component. I don't mean movements or religions as a whole here, but I'm basing these comments more on my interactions with people that I've known. I suspect that this is determined to some extent by the "personality" (for lack of a better word atm) of the individual. However, the people that I find myself wanting to emulate most are definitely those for whom stillness is an important part of their practice.

Great topic Sunstone.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
retrorich said:
At first glance, I read that as "Silliness." :D
rotflmao...

You know, if this witty retort HAD been the question, I would have said, "Abso-fricken-lutely!" A sense of humor is a tremendous asset to gaining inner peace or what Sunstone described in the OP as "stillness'. I really cannot stress that enough. The amusing part is that if you do not have a sense of humor prior to achieving inner peace, you certainly will have one afterwards. Guaranteed!
 

Random

Well-Known Member
Stillness and Silence of mind and body, correct posture and focused breathing are the basics of mystic contemplation.

Of course they're necessary.
 
I know that this is OLD, but I just rediscovered this forum.

Interesting. How do you define "Spirituality", O Darling Vigdisdotter?

I see spirituality is the personal connection/understanding of the universe and all that is within it. It's internal.

Religion on the other hand is the connection/understanding/practice of the group and is external.


It is quite possible (preferable?) to have both.

Edited to add: Okay, this is whacked. I looked but didn't see that I'd replied to this. But I looked again and found it. Huh.

 
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