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Is Tao = consciousness?

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Unless we desire a soft solution or desire to simplify our desires. :)

It seems that notions such as 'non-duality' can potentially cause thinking to become very uptight. It implies a 'duality' in contrast, which may lend itself to thinking 'duality' is bad and 'non-duality' is good. At least, this is a pitfall for people prone to heavy thinking like me. I'd rather just forget duality vs. non-duality and let that which is be and become that which is. All attempts to enforce what we consider 'good' are flawed contrivances.
Yep. "Not one, not two." (But even clinging to that can become a hindrance.)

On enforcing what we consider to be "good:"

Tao Te Ching 38:

High virtue is not virtuous
Therefore it has virtue
Low virtue never loses virtue
Therefore it has no virtue
High virtue takes no contrived action
And acts without agenda
Low virtue takes contrived action
And acts with agenda
High benevolence takes contrived action
And acts without agenda
High righteousness takes contrived action
And acts with agenda
High etiquette takes contrived action
And upon encountering no response
Uses arms to pull others
 

Vichar

Member
I'm very much enjoying the last several pages of this thread. It's been revolving around one of the central struggles of the spiritual aspirant. (I'm speaking for myself here; please don't get offended. I do not claim to be any kind of expert or authority; I'm just a traveler on my personal journey. What I say here I hope is of value to someone, and if you read it and turn away in disgust that's perfect, too. When I say "we", I do not mean "you and I, dear reader", I simply mean the body of individuals comprising the society within which I was raised.)

Given that we are raised in a society and conditioned into thinking in terms of "good" and bad", we naturally approach all endeavor this way. So we (naively) approach spirituality from the perspective of good and bad. We might even be tempted to try and figure out what is "permitted" and what is not permitted.

I believe there is a vast gulf of space between discussion and speculation versus direct, personal experience. I would personally agonize at times about decisions, wondering which way was correct. I now know this to be besides the point. One does not know the truth, because it is the mind that knows and the mind (although being one of the ten thousand, so to speak) is itself simply a biomechanical machine that responds in a predictable way to mental and physical stimuli. One has to become the truth. Even in physics scientists are seeing this: in the act of observing one alters the observed phenomenon. There is only one whole, seamless reality within which we are a co-creator. The spiritual path (this stage of it, in my opinion) is dedicated to teaching us simple things like cause-and-effect, and our true identity in spirit (not mind).

So yes, duality isn't what we're after. The idea that some things are right and some things are wrong is dual. The idea that "I" might try to be "spiritual" is dual. We shouldn't try to seek out the good and avoid the bad, because we are denying part of the whole. Rather, in true realization, the way becomes clear. It's not simply so easy as selecting the "correct" path among an infinitely branching series of decisions in our lives--that is not the way. The Way (Tao) is a process of becoming and then being. Put differently, we want to see both the good and the bad (as completely as possible) and then transcend both.

This is not easily expressed in English, so forgive me if what I'm saying is unclear. Being the truth is embodying it; when we are the truth, we understand it and our actions naturally follow. People in my society buy self-help books to try and alter their own behavior, thinking that this will improve who they are; make them a better person. However, this is going about it backwards (in my opinion). The sage seeks first within. The world is not illusion in the sense that it isn't real, but it is illusion in the sense that a shadow cast on the wall is not the object casting the shadow. Reality exists first in spirit (Tao), then manifests "downward" through various phases: one becoming two then ten thousand (This whole ten thousand thing is just a Chinese way of saying everything under heaven.) Tao is unmanifested (but quite real), it filters downward splitting into dual forces (entering the mental plane), then manifests as thought, emotions, and even physical objects.

We already are, of course. The spiritual journey is not one in which we seek to change our essence. We seek to alter our perspective. We initially approach reality through the filter of the mind, which only knows how to sort things (good/bad). By retiring inwards, we can begin the process of slowly undoing the many years of false teachings heaped upon us by society, history, and our (fleeting) status as human beings.

That's why sometimes sages will talk about "doing without doing". If there were nothing to be done, all this would be pointless. We seek, on a spiritual path, to alter our perspective so that instead of letting outer circumstances dictate to us what to think or how to feel, we move inwards and upwards to realize that thoughts and emotions aren't even part of our true selves. So many religions focus on emotional experience--while this has value, it isn't "real" because it's not eternal like we are.

This brings us full circle back to desire. Let's not let English definitions or word games confuse us. There is definitely a "Way", it does travel first up through the mind in a kind of backwards "undoing" of our mental baggage. "Thinking" isn't "bad", "desire" isn't bad. It's not bad to want things, and it's not bad to want to "be spiritual". Part of this maturation process is to understand that it's not about "good and bad", it's simply about understanding the effects of our causes. If we harm someone else, we are harming ourselves. This is not morality; the sage does not need to consider this because the sage perceives directly. The sage, being the truth, does not need to think about whether harming another is a good idea, just as we (hopefully) don't need to wonder if cutting off a finger is a good idea. If that finger is going to get blood poisoning, that might be a special case, but we're not playing word games (or semantic games), right?

This is why I say that Dao de Jing (Tao Te Ching) is practical advice. When read from a vibrational perspective, looking back from what I've learned through experience, it's a practical manual of how to retire inwards and separate the real from the unreal. Separate is a really poor word; unify would be better. Transcend is better yet. The Tao Te Ching is literally spelling out how you should approach things in viewpoint, if one but has the eyes to see (and ears to hear) what is written. It's important to realize that the words themselves are but references to a truth that can only be purchased through the hard sweat and knocks of real experience. I look at it almost like an answer key--if one is so fortunate to correctly navigate one's karmic experiences, one might easily peruse the Tao Te Ching and suddenly understand what was written there! Before that realization it's just so much esoteric gobblety-gook. So in just living one's life, one is on the path. It's just a matter of degree in sincerity and conscious realization of moving "forward" on the path (way).

I'm sorry this was such a long post. I had better stop here, and continue onwards if someone addresses me directly. If you stuck with me through this, thanks for reading such a long-winded post!
 
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Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
How about this....

The Eternal Way that is beyond description is non-dual,...yes?

The consciousness of the mortal mind is self referenced to the body in time and space of the physical world, I exist as me...yes?

As a result this mortal mind views all else in existence as being outside, separate from it and is therefore,....not me,...yes?

It follows then that this mortal mind's dividing of the unity of Tao into two parts, me and not me, is a fall away from of the consciousness of 'Heavenly' non-duality, the Eternal Tao...Yes?

It is ironic that true understanding is not realized by gaining greater knowledge by conscious effort, but by losing the belief that one can actually know reality by dividing the inherent unity of reality into two parts, that which is me (subject), and that which is not me (object), and subsequently mistaking the resultant never ending babylonian mind's conceptual permutations that arise in its desire for union/understanding as being possible or true expressions of the one reality

It is this dualsitic conceiver - concept mind approach to understanding of one reality that results in a mental constructed simulation that is mistaken for the real thing. Not that the dualistic mind isn't the proper tool for a mortal time space based entity for survival in the physical world, but it can never comprehend the ineffable underlying unity of Cosmic Being.

Reiterating, concerning the actual non-dual Tao that is represented by the concept 'Tao', this Tao that is spoken of can't ever be known by the human mind since it is forever on the other side of the mind conceptualization by virtue of IT being not in space or time?

A still mind, a state of dhyana otoh, what would transpire?
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Reiterating, concerning the actual non-dual Tao that is represented by the concept 'Tao', this Tao that is spoken of can't ever be known by the human mind since it is forever on the other side of the mind conceptualization by virtue of IT being not in space or time?

A still mind, a state of dhyana otoh, what would transpire?
Wuji and Taiji. Back to Tao Te Ching 42, posted in post #41.

That said, I do agree that we tend to cloak our non-dual consciousness in duality. Even when we do clean the dark mirror, it is still the mirror.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Correction...
Ben D says..
Reiterating, concerning the actual non-dual Tao that is represented by the concept 'Tao', this *can't ever be known by the human mind since it is forever on the other side of the mind conceptualization by virtue of IT being not in space or time?

* The words "Tao that is spoken of" should not be there.
 

DanielR

Active Member
are there any texts that describe how it "feels" to be one with the Tao, I mean what the experience is like? eg: like in Hindu Brahman Sat-Chit-ananda?

I mean I possess a German copy of the Tao te Ching, and I must say the translation is pretty bad, where would I have to search first?
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
are there any texts that describe how it "feels" to be one with the Tao, I mean what the experience is like? eg: like in Hindu Brahman Sat-Chit-ananda?

I mean I possess a German copy of the Tao te Ching, and I must say the translation is pretty bad, where would I have to search first?

Try this: Hsin Hsin Ming
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
are there any texts that describe how it "feels" to be one with the Tao, I mean what the experience is like? eg: like in Hindu Brahman Sat-Chit-ananda?

I mean I possess a German copy of the Tao te Ching, and I must say the translation is pretty bad, where would I have to search first?

Hers's a link, scroll down to the Tao Te Ching section and save as many as you like. The Stan Rosenthal translation is fine imho, and the John WorldPeace is an interesting one.

Index of Terebess Asia Online (TAO)

Concerning your interest in how it 'feels' to be one with the Tao, you have asked a very good question, though you need to reflect on it further.

The Tao is non-dual and so while there is a state of union with non-duality, there is no dualistic reflector - reflection mind process , if there were, then there is no state of the oneness with the Tao present.

Iow the 'I' does not arise when 'union' is present and so can't experience this state, therefore anyone who claims they know what it is like to be in the state of oneness does not understand and is in serious error. Not that union was not present temporarily, but the moment thought again arises in the mind, the union with non-duality ceases as the 'I' cleaves the non-duality into two,..subject and object. That's not to say there isn't an 'afterglow', but any thought or talk about it is vanity. "Those who know do not speak of it, those who speak of it do not know it",..Chung Tzu.

And yes, the Hsin Hsin Ming is a profound work to reflect on,..as an expedient to realize the Way of non-duality.
 

DanielR

Active Member
what I somehow don't 'get', and please forgive if this is a stupid question, but doesn't experiencing the Tao or being one with the Tao imply some form of consciousness, so Tao should be conscious?
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
what I somehow don't 'get', and please forgive if this is a stupid question, but doesn't experiencing the Tao or being one with the Tao imply some form of consciousness, so Tao should be conscious?
If you were unconscious, would you not still be part of the Tao?
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
A mistake that I've sometimes made is trying to think about 'duality' and 'non-duality' as categories to be analyzed rather than as relational terms referring to a state to be synthesized. These are fundamentally different approaches between Western and Eastern thought and probably a common source of confusion for people trying to learn about philosophical Taoism. Acting in harmony with the Axis does reveal a non-dual state beyond words and distinctions.
 
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Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
so can we say that Tao is not the same as Brahman because Tao would not be conscious?

I'm not so sure Brahman=consciousness anyway. The closest comparison to "Brahman" would be to scream loudly and without coherence. Brahman is "Wuaaahhhhhhhaaaaa!" ad infinitum.
 
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